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#1 on Y! and MSN, but #943 on Google
internetheaven




msg:749138
 10:25 am on May 31, 2006 (gmt 0)

I've seen dozens of these threads over the years on WebmasterWorld and always thought they were exagerrating or had simply used black hat techniques that Yahoo and MSN weren't sophisticated enough to detect. Now, I just can't fathom such a difference.

In the industry I'm in, this site is aimed at the highest niche - i.e. the most popular part of that industry with the most searched keyphrases. For the top five keyphrases I rank between 1-4 on both Yahoo and MSN. On Google I don't rank anywhere on the first 10 pages for any of them, I went right the way through for one of the phrases and found my listing at No.943

I've been an avid disputer of the Sandbox theory ever since people started looking for it as an excuse as to why their customer's sites weren't ranking! But now, with this site where:

- the site is 100% unique (i.e. handwritten and designed from scratch)
- with natural linking (we ARE an authority in the industry)
- natural SEO (e.g. nothing stuffed, no doorways, no cross-linking etc.)
- it has it's own unique IP address

there is only one thing that stands out: The site was registered in Sept 2005. We've never been "dropped" on Google, the site just never ranked in the first place.

 

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:749139
 2:56 pm on May 31, 2006 (gmt 0)

Welcome to the club ;)

(September 2005 is only 8 months gone. It can take more than a year).

Heywood_J




msg:749140
 3:17 pm on May 31, 2006 (gmt 0)

Internetheaven, I am sorry that it had to take a personal experience to believe sandbox effect exists. But, I found too often the skepticism and a rush to judgment of many people in this forum on real concerns that many of us are experiencing. It was obvious to thousands of us that the Sandbox was real and existed, but too often our legitimate concerns were brushed away by "experts" who just assumed we were using spamming or black hat techniques just because they personally did not see this with their existing sites. And these rush to judgments are counterproductive in identifying new trends or developments that may be occurring to legitimate webmasters.

That said, I hope your site makes it out of the sandbox soon.

petehall




msg:749141
 3:24 pm on May 31, 2006 (gmt 0)

internetheaven - can I please ask how you rank on 64.233.179.99, as I see no issues for newer websites on this IP.

I think to escape the sandbox we need to see a full update - nothing more.

I believe that IP is the update and it's just a matter of time until it starts to spread, presumably when any issues they might be having with it have been resolved.

Quite how long that will be is anyone's guess!

(If I'm wrong, I think I'll cry...)

Also quite interesting - we are number 1 on MSN and 6 on Yahoo for our main keyword, whereas Google lists us at around 900.

beach




msg:749142
 4:12 pm on May 31, 2006 (gmt 0)

petehall

How long has 64.233.179.99 been showing these results.

We have a few sites in the sandbox which appear in 64.233.179.99 index :)

egurr




msg:749143
 6:44 pm on May 31, 2006 (gmt 0)

We've got a site in the same boat. Rank well in MSN, starting to do very well in Yahoo! nothing in Google. Two weeks ago the entire site went supplemental in Google (other than the index page) and the Cache all reverted to February 7th.
It's about 200 pages, some really good content (average pv is 4 minutes) some not so good, some directory type pages, a real mix and excellent test site.
Google barely even knows it exists.
Funny thing is it was up to just about every page indexed a week before it went supp.
If the world ever ends I hope I'm at Google headquarters. They won't know about it for at least a year.

MrEd




msg:749144
 7:12 pm on May 31, 2006 (gmt 0)

I've been lurking here for a year or so and I've never posted, but this is the same situation for us. In the top 3 for msn and yahoo, yet we're getting the big smack down from google for no real reason that I can tell. We're number 6 in google on 64.233.179.99.

This has been going on for months and months... the stress is getting to me!

Just roll out the 64.233.179.99 results for God's sake people!

phpdude




msg:749145
 7:55 pm on May 31, 2006 (gmt 0)

64.233.179.99

Please do not roll out those results, they stink for my area.

Atticus




msg:749146
 8:14 pm on May 31, 2006 (gmt 0)

Sounds like you tripped the "too relevant" filter, by which pages will fail to rank if they can be shown to have content related to the search term in question.

I've had some small success gaining Google traffic by creating pages which are almost, but not quite, related to the search term I am targeting.

sandpetra




msg:749147
 8:44 pm on May 31, 2006 (gmt 0)

64.233.167.104 is not showing sandbox either.

I've been 'in' it since October 2005

Number 1 in MSN + Yahoo of course.

elgrande




msg:749148
 9:02 pm on May 31, 2006 (gmt 0)

I've had some small success gaining Google traffic by creating pages which are almost, but not quite, related to the search term I am targeting.

LOL! That's the funniest thing I've read here. The sad thing is that it's reality.

piatkow




msg:749149
 9:53 pm on May 31, 2006 (gmt 0)

I have had some pages dropped which on two key search arguements has pushed me down somewhere way below 100. Top 3 on Yahoo and MSN.

Most of my traffic has been built up organically so it isn't a catastrophic drop but one side effect is that my Adsense click through rate has improved.

Lorel




msg:749150
 12:24 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

My experience is if you're doing well in MSN/Yahoo you will do lousy in Google and Visa-Versa. And being as Google produces most of the traffic on the internet I focus on ranking well in Google.

I manage a website that went online Mid Jan because of no traffic. I redesigned it by 3-23 and it has been ranking at top 10 for all major keywords in about 2 weeks and this steadily increases. It' is not in a highly competitive market and this is probably why. I've heard that the sandbox doesn't always start from day one so I'm hoping the delayed sandbox doesn't hit it.

Asia_Expat




msg:749151
 2:33 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

I also focus on Google but do rubbish in the Google results and great in Yahoo... Go figure.

nippi




msg:749152
 2:42 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

My sites do well on all search engines in the main.

I have some sites totally set for msn as I need short term revenue from them, and msn has no barriers to age of site, and seems to rate all linsk the same regardless if all coming from one server, of off topic or not.

Reality is, if you are ranking on msn, and not google, likely you've taken shortcuts.

trinorthlighting




msg:749153
 3:27 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

I have always ranked well on msn, have never taken any short cuts, just good relevant pages.

MSN does a much better job at classifing entire sites then google does.

ogletree




msg:749154
 3:53 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

64.233.179.99 is shoing the same results as all the data centers did last week. I hope it comes back. I rank well with it.

JeffOstroff




msg:749155
 4:03 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

You guys need to find out who is sending you 302 redirects, which can harm your ranking, and who has scraped your site.

I like to use inurl:example.com to see who is playing games with my site name, and also use link:example.com to see whose "links" to my site are really 302 redirects, then I submit their site to Google's automated instant URL removal tool.

Another trick we do is to take one of our keywords that we advertise on google, and search it in google with our site name. For example, do this search:

"diamond rings" mysite.com

We found over 60,000 bogus SERP scraper sites linking to us through our paid Google adwords lisitngs, and our Overture PPC listings.

To get those 60,000+ sites removed out of Google's index, we shut down "content match" in Adwords, and completely shut down certain words in Overture. It took about a week of Google crawling those sites for them to drop out on certain searches.

McMohan




msg:749156
 5:20 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

internetheaven, I remember you since 2004 :-)
[webmasterworld.com...] (msg #3)

Good, finally you believe there is a sandbox.

Now that you started it, I would like to share my most recent experience. A site that was launched in Dec-05, came to me for optimization about 4 months back. I thought, best way of avoiding a site looking like an SEOd site was not to do any SEO on it :-) I waited for it to take its natural course. It acquired few links, just naturally and among them were 2 .edu sites. I didn't add even a single link, just did some basic META tags and had the client write the content himself and he doesn't have a clue about SEO. Expectedly content came out naturally with all the right semantics in it. Just added one phrase that was a target.

Now, it ranks #4 in MSN and #5 in Yahoo for KW1KW2KW3. But doesn't rank within 1000 in Google. I smile now happily, knowing there isn't anything more I can do to avoid the Sandbox, unless I have the luxury to get links from CNN/Stanford/MicroSoft all together :-)

mypattaya




msg:749157
 6:58 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

I've started my site in December 04. It got indexed by Google in May 04, during bourbon update. When I first started, I quickly got many links from small directories and started exchanging links from related sites immediately and many of them. I think that's where I went wrong.

Today the site is still in the sandbox. It ranked 4th in Yahoo and 56th in MSN for the main keyword. But it cannot be found in Google for main keyword.

There are signs that it will soon be out of the sandbox, for 3 or more keywords phrases with results lesser 500,000 it is starting to show within the 1st five pages of Google.

I've stop looking for link exchange and doesn't do much of that now instead I keep adding one new page to the site every weekend, but so far still no luck with Google.

nippi




msg:749158
 7:20 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

msn also takes into consideration on page seo far more than incoming links.

if your url is widgets.com/blue-widgets/the-widget.html with onpage us of h1 tags etc

good chance with only a few links you'll do well for the widget

not so in google

msn, is just not as good at getting around obvious seo as google

MLHmptn




msg:749159
 7:24 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

Honestly I'm beginning to think the biggest factor in Google's algo is age factor...Links and Domain Registration. Unless of course you have a link from cnn.com, disney.com, etc., you might as well forget Google for 1+ years. Most say 6 months and your out of the sandbox but alot of us still wait for the penalties/filters to be lifted 1-2 years later.


I've had some small success gaining Google traffic by creating pages which are almost, but not quite, related to the search term I am targeting.

This is indeed the truth! If your optimizing for blue widgets you might as well call them blue gadgets, blue tinkers and maybe you'll show up for blue widgets. I am quite surprised Google is gaining ground on MSN and Yahoo still even after their index is downright outdated and getting more and more irrelevant by the day.

internetheaven




msg:749160
 8:57 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

Good, finally you believe there is a sandbox.
Welcome to the club ;)
Internetheaven, I am sorry that it had to take a personal experience to believe sandbox effect exists.

I didn't say I believed in it. I'm not quite sure what I'm allowed to say as most of you will have noticed my last thread "disappeared". But short version is, I'm sort of looking for suggestions as to what else could have caused it because the only thing I can see is the age factor. Remembering of course that I have sites of the same age all ranking fine.

internetheaven - can I please ask how you rank on 64.233.179.99

I don't rank on it at all.

Reality is, if you are ranking on msn, and not google, likely you've taken shortcuts.

I've heard some rubbish in my time, but, come on ... this is the ONLY site that I've had a problem with. I have dozens of them on the go and have done for 6 years now. I don't think my sites could get much whiter, we don't even go for reciprocal linking.

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:749161
 9:40 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

Reality is, if you are ranking on msn, and not google, likely you've taken shortcuts.

I think this is quite misleading. There is no ranking relationship between MSN and Google. You can rank on one or other or both and I don't think it has anything to do with shortcuts.

asiaseo




msg:749162
 10:28 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

asia_expat and mypattaya, where are your sites hosted?
We have had sites hosted within SEA for years and just can't get anywhere, although they do well on Y and M, but a couple we put on US hosting a year ago doing way better on G than those hosted local, but of course way behind sites that have anything from 80,000 to 200,000 links.

Liane




msg:749163
 11:20 am on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

internetheaven,

Did you change anything "on page" shortly after launch and after Google indexed the site?

I have found that once Google has indexed a new page, changing it shortly after launch is the kiss of death. My pages are static (fixed) and don't change very often with the exception of a few. Those pages I have launched and left alone, rank immediately. But if I change almost anything, it will drop off the map and not reappear for about a year.

I am not saying this is so for news sites and pages which change frequently, but if a page is changed for anything which may be construed as SEO purposes, (whether it is or not) it seems to me that Google is able to detect that and the page gets hammered.

This is an observation based on my own experiences folks ... so don't jump down my throat.

mypattaya




msg:749164
 1:15 pm on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

asiaseo

my site is hosted in Thailand, but I don't think web hosting location is a factor.

I have another site hosted at the same place and is ranking well in Google.

JeffOstroff




msg:749165
 2:52 pm on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

I think many of you might have incorrect analysis on just what is meant by SANDBOX.

Those of you who think your sit eis sanboxed, probably are not really sandboxed at all.

Sandbox usually means that Google is punishing your site by REMOVING it from the index completely due to gross violations of spamdexing of one form or another, usually cloaking, 302 redirects of incoming links, duplicate content on other sites, samll font text (Font Size="-1"), hidden text same color as background, keyword stuffing in ALT tags, etc.

I assume none of us legit site owners are doing any of that nonsense. I know my site is high quality, writeen for hmand, and friendly to search engines without breaking the rules.

I suspect that many of you THINK you are sandboxed, when you really are not. For example, several of our searches that previously ranked in the Top 10 can now be found anywhere from rank #200, to 500, to page 90 of results. That might make some site owners think they are sandboxed.

That is not Sandboxed, that is Google's ill-tuned ranking filters, as we found on May 16-18, when for 2 days, Google had our site correctly ranked back in the Top 10, then on May 18, it went back down to social Siberia in the #300 ranking range.

So my question is are you guys just assuming you are sandboxed because you cannot find your site in the first 10 pages, or are you searching every page looking for it and it really IS missing from the index? Big difference.

I will sit there and search every SERP page of Google until I find my page, and track it with Excel.

Even if my page in question appears on page 80 of the results, I don't consider my site sandboxed, I consider it poorly filtered by Google, in spite of my best efforts to tune the site and keep my content fresh.

BTW, does anyone know of a good tool that will just tell you what your rank is on Google for a particular keyword no matter how bad the rank is?

THis would be useful so we don't have to keep clicking Google for 90 pages and waste their bandwidth. Too many useless ranking tools just tell you "not in the first 30". Well No S___ Sherlock, I already know that without having to paypal you $10.

That would save us all a lot of time.

Somebody please respond!

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:749166
 3:10 pm on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

I think many of you might have incorrect analysis on just what is meant by SANDBOX.

I think perhaps that it is you who is incorrect.

Sandbox usually means that Google is punishing your site by REMOVING it from the index completely due to gross violations of spamdexing of one form or another, usually cloaking, 302 redirects of incoming links, duplicate content on other sites, samll font text (Font Size="-1"), hidden text same color as background, keyword stuffing in ALT tags, etc.

Whatever gave you that idea? Sandboxed sites are categorically not removed from the index. They are indexed but just don't rank.

Lorel




msg:749167
 5:41 pm on Jun 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

There are signs that it will soon be out of the sandbox

What I look for is searches from AOL, Comcast, Earthlink and other sites fed by Google. They all seem to appear shortly before the site is released from the Sandbox. I have two other sites that went online last june and this is what happened to them and they are increasingly ranking for their major keywords now.


I've had some small success gaining Google traffic by creating pages which are almost, but not quite, related to the search term I am targetin

I do this for an artist site I manage. Each painting is in a gallery but each painting also has it's own page where the subject matter of the painting is featured in title,. description and text on the page, i.e. blue widgets on mount something or other.

where are your sites hosted?

Another more important question--are your sites on a Dedicated IP address. I saw research on this forum re this matter a couple months ago and the Dedicated IP address sites consistently ranked higher than those on shared hosting.

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