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Google searches for Microsoft limit on the IE7 search box
expressed concerns about competition from Microsoft in the Web search biz.
bobothecat




msg:709869
 12:45 pm on May 1, 2006 (gmt 0)

The New York Times reports that Microsoft's new Internet browser includes a search box in the upper-right corner that is typically set up to send users to Microsoft's MSN search service. Google contends that this puts Microsoft in a position to unfairly grab Web traffic and advertising dollars from its competitors.

[money.cnn.com...]

 

cyclinder




msg:709959
 1:01 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

we all know that MS will beat google sooner or later

google has too much for too little and for a pretty long time already

Also my bet is that MS now and in the future is generaly more friendly toward webmasters.

mattg3




msg:709960
 1:05 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

TBH i don't really care who it is in the end, as long as it is somehow stable. One of my server's log looks like a rollercoaster in breakdown. One can adjust to some monopolist being stable and one can plan with this in mind. Constantly changing unpredictable SERPS are the real killer, imo.

TypicalSurfer




msg:709961
 1:30 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

Off the top of my head I can think of 4 areas that G$ is using their dominant position to engage in predatory pricing/market dominance:

Wifi - cost=FREE
web analytics - cost=FREE
online shopping - cost=FREE
email - cost=FREE

there are probably a few more (just look for "beta") ;)

They are indeed calling the kettle black when they whine about abusing market share.

diveoz




msg:709962
 1:40 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

We rely on internet traffic for about 50% of our business, a very different business model for the sector of professional services that we serve.

When Google hoisted BigDaddy on the world and dropped all of our very real content with the exception of the index page, our business plummeted (but is now fortunately rebounding).

Conversely, MSN and Yahoo have consistantly held our site in high regard with top ranking for every search term of importance to us.

In my clearly unbiased view :-) I would love to see Google's business do exactly as BD did to us... plummet!

legallyBlind




msg:709963
 1:42 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

I still remember using gopher search from a unix command prompt back in 1990 and was able to find what ever I wanted. Google peaked into a wonderful search engine of which you can find whatever you are looking for in a snap. Google IPO and hunger for money is making it as bad as MSN and Yahoo. Today I just cannot find anything of technical importance on the internet, unless I automatically skip to the 10th search result page! Truly all Search engines suck today and in need to be fixed, none of them will be stable enough otherwise advertisement money will shrink, hence stock dropping and so on... MSN might be the one that saves the day due to the fact that microsoft's income is not relying on PPCs and nothing else, but yet again, Microsoft cannot make a stable operating system so here we are again, absolutely out of luck.

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:709964
 2:10 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

Truly all Search engines suck today and in need to be fixed, none of them will be stable enough otherwise advertisement money will shrink, hence stock dropping and so on

Precisely!

We shall never again have good, honest search results while the search engines are driven commercially. Google's results were excellent until the lead up to their flotation.

We had a long discussion about this a few months ago in this thread, [webmasterworld.com...] in which I proposed a not for profit search engine. I still firmly believe that this is the only way forward. Google cannot clean up the results properly because to do so would have a serious effect on their long term profitablility via Adsense income.

rjbearcan




msg:709965
 2:45 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

[pcmag.com...]

Yet another IE security problem. Yeah, this is the company I want to knock off Google. They can't get one of their most important programs in order, how the hell are they going to get search right? I am begging Google to bring out their own OS and put an end to the MS madness. The less of a player Microsoft is on the internet, the safer we all will be.

europeforvisitors




msg:709966
 2:51 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

I still remember using gopher search from a unix command prompt back in 1990 and was able to find what ever I wanted.

I have much better luck finding things on Google, probably because the Web has a lot more of the information I need than the gophers and ftp servers of 15 years ago did.

On the other hand, there wasn't any "search spam" in the gopher days--or, for that matter, before the Web was commercialized in 1995. The Mother Gopher had a much easier job than Grandma Google and Mama MSN Search do.

balam




msg:709967
 3:40 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

> Yet another IE security problem. [...] The less of a player Microsoft is on the internet, the safer we all will be.

Now be fair, rjbearcan. It's not like Microsoft is the only one with security issues...

Macworld: SANS notes sharp increase in Mac OS X flaws [macworld.com]

A sharp increase in the number of flaws being discovered in Mac OS X suggests that the Apple operating system may soon be every bit as prone to malicious attacks as Windows systems, according to a report from the SANS Institute, a Bethesda, Md.-based security training and research firm.

PCWorld: Mozilla Readies Firefox Security Patch [pcworld.com]

The Firefox 1.5.0.3 update was scheduled to be delivered Friday, but it is now expected to be released "early [this] week," a Mozilla spokeswoman said. Developers have reduced the number of features in the update so that the security patch can be released more quickly, Mozilla said in a statement on the Mozilla.org Web site.

sandyk20




msg:709968
 4:11 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

this is what is called competitive market, its a great way to learn strategies of giants :)

Munster




msg:709969
 4:16 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

Picking up on the 'why don't google create their own OS' question well I think that is a delicate issue. If Google built their own operating system would software houses have to then re-write all their software to run on it, would we have to then go and buy this software. It would be VHS Vs Betamax all over again and there would only be one winner, and in the OS game do we really think that would be Google?

I think that Googles tactic of creating features such as desktop search and the Google pack is spot on. They just need to compete for space on the desktop to stay alive. Google office must be the way to go (as long as it is compatable with MS Office). If they start providing features like that for free so that we no longer need to buy the costly MS Office products, that would really hit MS in the wallet.

All in all, as far as I can tell, they are doing it right!

legallyBlind




msg:709970
 4:29 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

Computers are not devices and most computer users don't know anything about the operating system they are using. The issue here is Google Vs MSN: Who is more Evil? A search engine is a search portal and not an ad venue. Once you mix pure searches with $$$ you get crap for a given result set.

here is an example: Google is trying to take real estate and lodging from little guy and pass it over to new partners by placing a sub search before any of the organic results pointing to their own property listings. Try "Boston Real Estate" and you will see "Refine your search for boston real estate" followed by a mini search module. Now what is that?

By the way I'm not a realtor but I market real estate sites in few states, still doing good but some of my clients are so mad claiming that google is not being fair.

Nirvana1




msg:709971
 5:04 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

Did anyone else noticed major changes in the Google serps? I noticed that the first page of many results were relevant, but page 2 and beyond had many un-relevant websites - the most I have ever seen in Google.

Also, did anyone else notice spaces.msn.com blogs get wiped out of the Google serp's?

europeforvisitors




msg:709972
 5:56 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

Computers are not devices and most computer users don't know anything about the operating system they are using. The issue here is Google Vs MSN: Who is more Evil? A search engine is a search portal and not an ad venue. Once you mix pure searches with $$$ you get crap for a given result set.

But Google doesn't "mix pure searches with $$$." Ads and organic search results are separated, and their respective rankings are calculated independently of each other.

In a capitalist marketplace, search engines must earn revenues to survive. Until users are willing to pay subscription fees for the right to use Google, MSN Search, Yahoo Search, etc., the search engines have to sell advertising. It's that simple, and there's nothing "evil" about it.

MichaelEng




msg:709973
 7:37 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

You have to admit that Google is being a bit cheeky complaining about IE having an MSN integrated search box, when they have Firefox. I'm glad they are challenging MS, just to make sure that it keeps things a bit more fair.

stinkfoot




msg:709974
 8:41 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

LOL .. that is quite a joke ... see origonal post

How can google complain that microsoft have an unfair advantage when the first thing they do to a microsoft piece of software (IE) is take it over when you load up the tool bar.

tntpower




msg:709975
 10:35 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

What a joke!

Google pays FireFox and Opera to have Google search as default search engines. Shall I sue Google?

tntpower




msg:709976
 11:01 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

They simply built it into the OS and gave it away FREE

You call that competition?

Yes, it is competition; I call it competition.

You claimed it is not competition, not competition according to your definition of "competition".

The first flaw of your argument, obviously, is why you think your "competition" is good & right, the other "competition" is bad & wrong?

Secondly, Microsoft does not have any magical device ,i.e: money-making machine. M$ did all of your claimed "dirty" competitions on their own.

Want fair play? What a joke! Can you expect Saddam Hussein and G W Bush to have a one-to-one, WWE-like combat instead of a war?

europeforvisitors




msg:709977
 11:10 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

What a joke!

Google pays FireFox and Opera to have Google search as default search engines. Shall I sue Google?

Thanks for helping to prove my point:

Microsoft (which has a monopoly in PC operating systems, according to the U.S. court system) gets free placement for its search engine in the default Windows browser.

Google--and any other search engines that want browser placement--have to pay for equivalent treatment in browsers like Firefox or Opera.

Now, maybe you think this is okay. Maybe I think it's okay. (I don't have a strong opinion.) But it's naive to pretend that it's meaningless or "a joke" in the context of U.S. court rulings and Microsoft's history of pushing the antitrust envelope.

tntpower




msg:709978
 11:29 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

Microsoft (which has a monopoly in PC operating systems, according to the U.S. court system) gets free placement for its search engine in the default Windows browser.

Google--and any other search engines that want browser placement--have to pay for equivalent treatment in browsers like Firefox or Opera.

Now, maybe you think this is okay. Maybe I think it's okay. (I don't have a strong opinion.) But it's naive to pretend that it's meaningless or "a joke" in the context of U.S. court rulings and Microsoft's history of pushing the antitrust envelope.

"monopoly in PC" Yes

"free placement" No

IE has been integrated with Windows for years. It is ridiculous and not applicable to order M$ to get rid of IE. Can you imagine Ford to discard their own eignines/transmissions and replace them with Honda's because Ford is a monopoly (well, it is not true)

Because IE is a part of Windows, IE gets its placement thanks to Windows market share. You cannot say windows gets free placement, can you?

[edited by: tntpower at 11:34 pm (utc) on May 2, 2006]

mattg3




msg:709979
 11:29 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

But Google doesn't "mix pure searches with $$$." Ads and organic search results are separated, and their respective rankings are calculated independently of each other.

What is the exact formulation? One can easily not link them programmatically and still test different result sets and see what algo set earns the most.

Nothing evil about it.

Still I doubt that there is no communication flow whatsoever between these two G programs. :\

I can't really believe there isn't some meeting and a simple information as to make the second search results page more irrelevant might bring more income as people then look more at the ads?

I don't have a particular moral stance on this, I just find it unlikely that people don't talk.

I mean it has been shown that scientists subconciously turn their experiments towards that what they want to find.

MichaelEng




msg:709980
 11:54 pm on May 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

I battle to feel sorry for Google with their billions of dollars in cash waiting to spend. I'm Busy reading the book 'the Google story' and they claim they don't intend to spend money on advertising (this was before becoming a listed company). If they are going to spend ad money, spending it on Firefox and Opera is probably a very effective.

Google has been voted as the strongest brand last year or this and all this has been done with very little ad spend. They've been receiving some awesome PR.

So with all their PR, momentum and dominant position in the search engine wars, I hardly see them as the underdog.
This is going to one great battle MSN and Google in the search wars

catch2948




msg:709981
 12:03 am on May 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

It will be interesting to see what is coming ... Google has billions to spend, but Bill Gates (aka "Big Daddy Fat Pockets") is tough to beat, once he sets his sights on something.

europeforvisitors




msg:709982
 1:48 am on May 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

Google has billions to spend, but Bill Gates (aka "Big Daddy Fat Pockets") is tough to beat, once he sets his sights on something.

His deep pockets didn't help him unseat AOL with the MSN online service.

expat123




msg:709983
 5:10 am on May 3, 2006 (gmt 0)


Firefox should come pre-installed with Vista to increase competition.

MS and Google can set the default for their respective browsers.

That would be fair.

texasville




msg:709984
 5:25 am on May 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>>His deep pockets didn't help him unseat AOL with the MSN online service. <<<<

He didn't offer any money to AOL. But he made Google pony up one billion just to keep what it already had! LMAO!

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:709985
 8:16 am on May 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

Microsoft (which has a monopoly in PC operating systems, according to the U.S. court system) gets free placement for its search engine in the default Windows browser.

.. or more accurately.

Microsoft gets free placement for its own search engine in its own browser.

Who am I to argue with the U.S. court system but I don't see how the fact that that 95% of people use IE makes it a monopoly. There are dozens of alternative browsers, many of which are free.

See [en.wikipedia.org...]

MichaelEng




msg:709986
 9:09 am on May 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

The scary bit for Google is that 90% of people use IE, so if that translates to 90% of people upgrading to IE7, then that it is a serious threat to Google.

How does the MSN search compare with Google?

whiterabbit




msg:709987
 9:23 am on May 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

How does the MSN search compare with Google?

It compares in favour of Windows Live ( [live.com...] ) it seems, try searches for keywords which produce 50,000,000+ results. They appear to be relevant, spam-free and useful.

steve40




msg:709988
 11:19 am on May 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

It is interesting reading the number of anti Google posts and those in favour of Microsoft .
I have been in the computer industry for some 40 yrs so saw what microsoft did , some may arque they killed competion AKA Netscape, Novell, Wordperfect and made IBM completely change focus and many more, but the reason was that those companies were complacent and often charging to much for products and services with poor quality of service ( I can remember charging IBM customers $4,000 dollars per seat for word processing S/W ) . Whether we like MS or not they still do provide the products that most companies and home users like at a price they are willing to pay.
Having installed IE7 it is a good product and I think better than Firefox and did not override my Google search, If MS can provide a quality search product as good as or better than Google then IE7 will mean more will test and use MS Search.
I honestly believe if Google has an achillees heel it is their belief that everything is better when an algo is used instead of human decisions as the number of innocents that are hurt by an algo are seen as acceptable collatteral damage but that the very same innocents may well prove to be Google's demise if the innocents become to many and vocal and the number does appear to be growing on here and other boards and although G may not care about a few webmasters they collectivily have much more influence over the Web than any of us realise, such as search boxes but also due to "supposed expertise " in all things web related are often asked oppinions.
The war is just starting and IE7, AOL, Amazon, Vista etc are just the opening shots.

just my 2 cents

steve

catch2948




msg:709989
 1:39 pm on May 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

This whole issue is going to flush out something that Iím sure many of us have thought about many times before.

Everyone is pretty much familiar with the case Kindercare has against Google, its claims, etc. There have been numerous posts with the obligatory "Google can do what they want with their search engine". Well, didn't Microsoft have basically the same thoughts about Windows a short while ago? Look what eventually happened there, with government anti-trust lawsuits in both the US & EU. It could be said that these are 2 completely different scenarios, but in reality, they are quite similar.

IMO, both Microsoft and Google do have the right to do what they want with their respective offerings. But as history has already shown (with Microsoft), when one company controls something that is such an integral part of everyday life (and thus many billions of $$, Euro, etc), government (anywhere in the world) is not going to stand for it. While the argument is there that since the internet is multi-national, the same rules donít apply. Well, if that were the case, how did Google manage to come up with a system to satisfy the requirements of Chinese officials?

I believe what we are going to see in the not so distant future is Google contending with the same type of anti-trust lawsuits. The same governmental organizations that originally sued Microsoft to get them to release Windows source code to competitors are going to be suing Google to get them to release more information about how their search algorithms are determined. The whole process is going to be the forerunner of governments bringing some sort of regulation to the internet. Like it or not, itís eventually coming. And anti-trust proceedings against an internet based company as large as Google will provide the perfect setting.

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