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This 210 message thread spans 7 pages: < < 210 ( 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 > >     
Supplemental Club: Big Daddy - Part 3

 3:21 pm on Mar 9, 2006 (gmt 0)

< continued from: [webmasterworld.com...] >

On one of my searches this morning, I found a site with an expired domain above my site in the results. That just ain't right!

[edited by: tedster at 5:58 am (utc) on Nov. 8, 2006]



 6:01 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

pgillman, thanks for the clarification. It is great you got a response from Google. I have written them before and they never had the courtesy to respond. Yes, I do think even the big corporations need to be courteous.

BD is using August links and August PR. The switch is obvious as it goes back and forth from different datacenters if your site has changed in PR or substantially in links or pages from AUG to FEB.

bobmark, I find that every interesting and I hope that explains this mess. I have a site that was launched in November. I did well (picking up sandbox type traffic) until February 1st. Then it tanked. Recovered just a little in the last few days. If what you are saying is true, that would explain what I am experiencing with that site. Anyone else launch a new site between August and February. I must say that none of my pages are supplemental though, just talking about traffic here.


 6:25 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)


No because the traffic from google serps is helping to down average the traffic cost from Google over all to a site.

Knock on effect for google will be less webmasters buying traffic because they cant sustain buying at the current levels due to the fall off in google serps traffic which was helping to average the price down and this in turn could leed to a potential down spiral due to less webmasters bidding, less adwords purchased at lower costs etc - not good for Google!.

It could well be that Google are messing with us to see the effect on Adwords due to this situation which could have well been engineered (we dont know for certain if the supplementals will ever come back and we dont know if it was deliberate to cause this problem?)

I would certainly like to see some sign of suplementals returning back but currently all is quiet.

No update from GG yet and we understand that matt cutts has deleted messages from his blogg so nothing from him either then yet!

Its still supplemental hell as i can see!

[edited by: tedster at 9:52 pm (utc) on Mar. 10, 2006]


 6:49 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

Also I am reading that a lot of people are stopping adwords because they can no longer afford it due to their serps dropping. Does that mean that sales were coming from serps only and adwords clicks were not paying off? It seems that if you were using adwords to get to the number 1 spot on the sponsored search people should be clicking through and purchasing.

As I indicated in my post, the ROI on Adwords for my industry will not justify itself, if your only traffic is coming from searches were your presence is Adwords advertising only. The conversion rate is just not there. In some industries, being the number 1,2 or 3 sponsored result doesn't increase the conversion rate enough to achieve an acceptable ROI.

I think alot of people who advertise through Adwords don't have or use the ability to examine if the money they are spending on Adwords is really worth it. Alot of people just think that all you need to do is be number one and then you will get the traffic, purchases and the rest will take care of itself. If the majority of people using Adwords did do ROI analysis, then Google revenue would not be as good as it is.


 7:30 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

As for AdWords, we had to step up the budget. We were spending a ton before, and we're spending a ton & a half now. It's ridiculous.

As for the topic of Supplemental Hell, I love seeing that people (ahem, BwnBwn) are getting their sites back up (although I still agree with Grinler/QuarryShark that the IPs of the Datacenters would be invaluable info here).

Eventually you are left with only your home page as a legitimate entry and then the rest being supp pages. At this point I can not find a single active url from my older pages (that are still visible here: in the new index. They simply have been dropped and all I am left with is homepage and supps. From what I understand..that is the bug

Um... unfortunately it's not anymore the bug in my case--it's gotten worse!

Our homepage was dropped from the index as well. Was anyone else's homepage dropped from the index?

The homepage is not even in the Supps. A site: search actually shows the [domain.com...] page as Supplemental & Omitted. I 301'd the non-www to www.domain.com a couple of months ago. Further, I've been working on this site (5 years old) since December, since when our site was dramatically increasing in the SERPs.

Interestingly, the site: search does show 15% of our internal content pages (maybe 30-50) in the Omitted results, not supplemental. How could Google have internal content pages in the index and the main homepage completely out of the index?

There are no 302's, the site is not ecommerce, no link farms, no forums, just a purely informational site that drives tons of phone calls. I'm hoping that people can do the following:
1. Please post the IP of the DC you're using if you see the old results again.
2. If you're able to successfully communicate with Google to fix the matter, please enumerate the steps you took, and please (spell out if necessary) include the Gmail address you used...I'm getting nowhere with the User Support Team.



 7:56 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

I don't know if what I am experiencing since March 9 belongs in any way to the Supplemental Club. Please help me understand if you can:

I used to have thousands of pages in the SERPS, now I only have 5. If I search "Site:domain.com" I get:

Results 1 - 4 of about 120,000 from domain.com
If you like, you can repeat the search with the omitted results included
I click on it and I get:
Results 1 - 5 of about 120,000 from domain.com

- I don't see (not even in "supplementals") the thousands of pages that used to be there. I get only the home page and the 4 main pages. Pagerank and backlinks for the home page are still showing (not for the internal pages, but these have never had it since they were built between toolbar updates). Caches are there for all pages, but only 5 pags (4+1 supplemental) are still showing in the SERPS.

Is this part of the problem/glitch you are talking about or is this a (partial) ban?


[edited by: zapper at 8:04 pm (utc) on Mar. 10, 2006]


 7:59 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)


That sounds like the glitch.

PM me your url and I can tell you for sure.


 8:10 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)


I totally agree with the ROA for adwords. I just want to be on top of the google searches and not on every website that has adwords on it.

I have started using adwords but I am using them very carefully for specific search terms only where my serps dropped due to the supplemental issue.


 8:16 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

Does anyone care to venture a guess as to what percentage of DC's have been converted to Big Daddy now? It is March 10th, afterall...


 8:17 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

I just spent some time on Mcdar (Big Daddy DC's) checking keyphrases that I owned in my sector for years. The best position I could get was #185. I held the #1 for that term the last 3 years.
Average was about #350 for those that showed at all.....WOW what a beating.


 8:23 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

Does anyone care to venture a guess as to what percentage of DC's have been converted to Big Daddy now?

Around 60%. But based on my observations this percentage has not progressed for a while now.

Hopefuly Google will solve the "All pages except home desindexed problem" before big daddy continues spreading.


 8:24 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)


I do not think its a google conspiracy and they need to get the situations resolved quickly or people will stop searching due to relevancy.

Everyone out there who tanked in rankings, when you do a keyword search for your industry how relevant are the results?


 8:25 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

Who has taken your place quarryshark? I empathise with you.


 8:30 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

"I have a site that was launched in November....I must say that none of my pages are supplemental though, just talking about traffic here."

That would tend to confirm the supposition that only those sites old enough to be in the "original" BD index are affected by the "suplemental bug," although not all sites obviously.


 8:35 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)


I am seeing new results here not supplemental anymore check this DC out ok


 8:35 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

A VERY optimistic view, trinorth.
"I do not think its a google conspiracy and they need to get the situations resolved quickly or people will stop searching due to relevancy."

In the short to medium term it makes very little difference to Google how irrelevant the search results are. We live and breathe SERPs on here but the average surfer only sees what Google serves up and doesn't question it unless (s)he gradually gets the impression that results are poor. That probably takes months as Google has now moved into the MacDonalds class of brand loyalty (the product may be cr@p but consumers still go there).

Google HAD to know this would be chaotic, they simply - as usual - don't care about the "collateral damage" to us (the suppliers of ALL their content!)


 8:38 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

Excellent post Ledfish. Adwords is just icing on the cake for the vast majority of businesses. If Google is bombing you in the SERPS strictly Adwords won’t carry you.

Actually the supplemental problem people are referring to started, as far as I can tell, at the beginning of Jagger. Could have been earlier. It's really getting exposure now because it is hitting larger sites.

Plus if you read the GG/Matt Cutts post carefully you realize Google is paying very little attention to bugs in their algo and the repercussions. In fact if a few had been on vacation the promised fix might be a month from now if ever.


 8:46 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)


I am seeing new results here not supplemental anymore check this DC out ok"

This is not a BigDaddy datacenter.


 8:48 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)


I've got the same bug that you do. Many of my pages are in the Omitted results and then Supp'd when displayed, while most are just not present at all (most recently even the homepage).

it's a gnarly bug indeed.


 8:49 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

"Who has taken your place quarryshark? I empathise with you."

Thanks, I feel bad for everyone here. It's devastating for many of us and for me, this is a slow time of the year to begin with. At least MSN and Y are helping convert some sales.
To answer your question, Ebay, craigslist, Y shopping, etc are saturating the serps pretty well.
Tons of dead domain redirects. For example, go on G and search for "caravan hubcaps". Any title ending in "products" is a redirect. Just click it and you will see what I'm talking about.
Also most of my normal competition has not been effected, they seem do be listing normally.


 8:50 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

I am seeing new results here not supplemental anymore check this DC out ok


That DC looks good to me..... But it is not passing the sf giants test...


 8:50 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

I just ran a study in my area on relevancy and how this supplemental crap really made the google index come up with bad results.

I sell a trademarked product on the web and there are only 5 other people who sell the some product. So I did a search on MSN/Yahoo/Google for a very specific term "Purchase product xyz now"

Here were the results:

Yahoo 19,000 results with all five of us who sell in the top 10

MSN 6,713 results with all five of us who sell in the top 10

Google 200,000 results with all five of us who sell this product in the hundreds. (all supplemental) The top 10 results were very irrelevant. The first being a company that sells headlights for a car, very unrelated. Second- My ebay ad, the third a company that sells a product for cars and so on....

So the results are turning out real bad and google snafu'd everything. This will effect the number of people who search on google in the short term and long term. That is why I am seeing traffic pick up in my idustry from the other engines.

I realize everyones financial pain as I have felt it myself as well.... Just goes to show you not to count your chickens before they hatch and how not to rely on one search engine alone....

This has already caused me to lay off employees and I am sure its causing a lot of you to do the same....


 9:00 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

"Just goes to show you not to count your chickens before they hatch and how not to rely on one search engine alone.... "

I doubt most of us do. For me I index great on Y and MSN.
The fact is that historically, G send me 68% of my traffic on average. Thats a heck of a lot to loose.


 9:03 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

I think a really unhealthy relationship has developed between Google and the 'fake index sites'. You know the ones who spider the web and have a ton of pages like 'widgets-countryname' with the indexed result of their bot.

They exist ENTIRELY for Google Adsense and many of them even advertise on Adwords.

This stuff is spam, has zero original content, but Google wants the Adsense revenue and is treating them like legit sites as I keep seeing them top 5 in SERPs.


 9:04 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

[] is normally my default DC. The results at the moment look like the results from early January, this DC tends to flip back and forth between these older and newer results. Nothing new, I have been seeing this for months. I have never seen big daddy results on this DC.


 9:23 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

Is Google routing to a BD dc part of each day like they do where I am (half day on your usual 72.etc., half a BD dc)?


 10:02 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

I am telling u guys something is a miss here as dc in canada are displaying same in US hasn't been doing that at all in a week. I am seing hits coming in for searches that were not there and I am in the [] datacenter right now so that means another DC has turned over as well.


 11:06 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

One can only assume that a fix is on its way, as the numebr of supplementals on BD DC's are way out of proportion.

A considerable number of supplementals for current [not deleted] pages are bugged, in that they show incorrect pages, with content missing.

This is probably a night mare time for Google tech guys, who have to please the shareholders/ company directors AND the public at the same time.

There are two possible solutions. One is to rollback and start all over again. The other is to fix existing problems, which is no mean task. As we all know, often a fix creates a secondary problem, and this can escalate. We're talking big time mathematical equations here, and they take some working out!


 11:22 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

Trinorthlighting - I can concur with your observation of relevancy - in our sector which is highly competitive I'm seeing a consistant pattern of results whith diminished relevance.

Of the top 10 results on a popular search term over 5 variant phrases of the core, only 1-2 are "marginally" relevant in the results.

The 1-2 appear to be "technically correct" insofar as they've beaten the supplemental club, but it's at the expense of good results.

I'd say Yahoo and MSN will pick up some traffic if this isn't addressed quickly. What user is going to persist with bad results.

Meanwhile Adwords remains consistant! :)


 11:32 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

zapper, Abhilash, I am seeing the same thing with: "If you like, you can repeat the search with the mitted results included."

My pages (I belive like yours) are also not in the supplemental index when you click on 'repeat with omitted results'.

zapper, Abhilash: are your sites new, were they launched say in the last 6 months or so? Are they large sites, small sites, what kind of content do they have?


 11:33 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

Relevancy is key for any search engine to survive. Look at the search engines of the past that died..... If they do not fix the relevancy issue soon this may be the beginning of the end....


 11:46 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

my site is back and supplemental shows all my pages from my site map.

This 210 message thread spans 7 pages: < < 210 ( 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 > >
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