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This 205 message thread spans 7 pages: < < 205 ( 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 > >     
Supplemental Club: Big Daddy - Part 2
larryhatch




msg:752742
 10:39 am on Mar 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

< continued from [webmasterworld.com...] >

One thing to watch for: HOURLY fluctuations.

After years long slow advances, my main page reached #13 in Google for the main single KW.
Suddenly it dropped to #16, then 4 hours later it was right back at #13.

Same thing with a 2-word key-phrase. From #2 or #3 I fell back to #6.
4 hours later, like the above, it was right back.

Some of this is data center switching I'm sure.
Then again maybe they use old data while they polish up the new.
All in all, Big Daddy has not hurt my site yet (knock on wood). -Larry

[edited by: tedster at 6:48 pm (utc) on Mar. 6, 2006]

 

pgillman




msg:752832
 2:46 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

Webspud,
My example just shows the www versus non www index entries in supplementals. Another test is to look at one of your other supplemental pages (as shown on BD) with an old cache date (one that differs from your current page in content) and search on a snippet from this page (unique to the old dated page) using the non BD center. That's how we've found the other pages that now appear on the BD center and also appear prior to BD.

mopacfan




msg:752833
 2:50 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

Where do I get my ID card and membership information packet? Now that I've joined the club, I'd like to go over the by-laws and get paid up on my dues :(

My site seems to have gotten hit hard by the supplemental bug as well. This is going to be a bad month for traffic. I hope G gets this resolved quickly.

icedowl




msg:752834
 2:52 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

I just tried the "site:domain.com -www.domain.com" type of search for one of my sites. It returned 29 results, and, except for one descriptionless link to the main URL without the "www.", all of the results were pages that no longer exist anywhere. The site has around 850 pages currently.

SoleDrag




msg:752835
 3:04 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

Stupid question:

Our site has not been hit with supplimentals, but one of my main competitors have. I guess I don't see the big deal. People are still going to click on his supplimental results, aren't they? Or does the typical searcher ignore them for some reason? I'm just trying to understand, thanks.

powerofeyes




msg:752836
 3:17 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

Yes, but this is not the case the that supplimental page has replaced the normal page - it is the case that the normal page no longer is in the index so the supplimental page is now visible.

Exactly the case. All good pages just dropped off the index for many sites. All that is left now are existing supplement pages plus what google has introduced for that site from its archives.

rookiecrd1




msg:752837
 3:51 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

"Our site has not been hit with supplimentals, but one of my main competitors have. I guess I don't see the big deal. People are still going to click on his supplimental results, aren't they? Or does the typical searcher ignore them for some reason? I'm just trying to understand, thanks."

The problem is that supplemental pages rank very very poorly, meaning almost no traffic at all for those listings.

bwnbwn




msg:752838
 4:09 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

[72.14.207.104...] is not Dig Daddy and will change

schalk




msg:752839
 4:23 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

In summary

Problem seems to be getting worse for everybody as big daddy rolls out to more and more data centres.

GG seems to acknowledge the problem, but we could all really do with some feedback as to when the problem is likely to get resolved. I believe a week or so was suggested, which is a like a life time for me!

quarryshark




msg:752840
 4:30 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

So if we cannot get out of the sup hell. What does everyone see as the long term answer? Create a new site from scratch with a new domain?
Basically start over?
That would suck with all the 100s of hours over the last 5 years I have put into my site. But I'll do what I gotta do, have a family to feed.
I'm not running to the keyboard yet, but the thought has crossed my mine.
Tired of trying to be white hat and getting stomped.

Grinler




msg:752841
 4:33 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

So if we cannot get out of the sup hell. What does everyone see as the long term answer? Create a new site from scratch with a new domain?

People are still missing the issue. The problem is not that you have all these supplementals. Those pages were probably already there or slated to go there.

The problem is that all your legitimate pages (that do not belong in supplemental) have been dropped from the index. As they are not in the supplemental index now, they will probably be added once they are recrawled again. So for all our legitimate links that are now missing, we should see them eventually come back as they are crawled unless google can do something quicker.

From what I understand, the people affected by this glitch are those that when doing a site:domain.com show only the main homepage in the main index, and the rest are supplementals that would normally not be seen. All the rest of our normal results are now no longer indexed at all. If this is not what you are seeing, then you have another issue here.

My concern is what about the ranking for these pages....it is probably going to be hard to get those pages back into whatever ranking they had if we have to wait for recrawls.

quarryshark




msg:752842
 4:36 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

"The problem is that all your legitimate pages (that do not belong in supplemental) have been dropped from the index."

Thats my concern and that is what's happening.

"My concern is what about the ranking for these pages...."

Agree, thats the bigger issue.

maha




msg:752843
 4:38 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

Actually I am more concerned that these results are permanent after BD update is complete. Google has a history of making major updates and "whacking" sites from their SERP without any of them returning.

Grinler




msg:752844
 4:47 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

Actually I am more concerned that these results are permanent after BD update is complete. Google has a history of making major updates and "whacking" sites from their SERP without any of them returning.

The supp results are prob permanent if they are supposed to be there. All the pages that were dropped, and are no longer in the index, should be readded once they are crawled

I for one have been seeing very heavy google crawling at my site. Unfortunately it takes a while for google to add pages to their index.

mvandemar




msg:752845
 4:50 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

For all you people freaking out, have you not noticed a massive respidering of domains? All pages, including supps? Check your traffic logs, Gbot is on steroids.

One of my sites has had 2672 hits in the past 11 hours. 32,123 from the 2nd through the 6th.

Compared to 301 hits for the entire month of Janurary. Nope, not a new site, a couple of years old.

Now, I have no idea where their storing this data in the interim, but I'm betting that it's going somewhere, and once they're done going haywire, we'll no longer be freaking out about this whole issue.

Instead, we'll have something completely new to freak about, when they shuffle all the rankings based on this new content they found, and we can no longer base it on glitch theories. :)

-Michael

[edited by: tedster at 8:46 pm (utc) on Mar. 7, 2006]

zeus




msg:752846
 7:09 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

I noticed that sites who had troubles with non www and the 302 bug from google, are those sites that also have a lot of supplemental pages now in BD.

steveb




msg:752847
 8:37 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

SoleDrag its against this forum's charter to list searches like that, but the one you included has no supplementals. Perhaps you are thinking an "indented result" is a "supplemental". They have nothing to do with each other.

BillyS




msg:752848
 8:51 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

Iím trying to understand whatís happening because I cannot seem to find a good example of this ďmy siteís gone supplementalĒ situation. Iíve got a lot of supplementals in BD and Iíve also got a reduced number of pages in that index. But the supplementals that I see listed should be supplemental Ė they are pages that no longer exist.

Matt claims we donít need to be worried about supplementals beyond several simple steps he outlined on his blog. But Iím more concerned with the lack of pages because no pages = no ranking.

Iíve seen reference to another SEO forum as an example, but the only supplementals that I see for that site are those where the page no longer exists.

Can someone please send me an example of a site thatís showing supplemental pages in the search results where those pages still exist?

Abhilash




msg:752849
 9:11 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

People are still missing the issue. The problem is not that you have all these supplementals. Those pages were probably already there or slated to go there.

Grinler, you've been quite on point throughout this conversation. However, what is one to do when totally legitimate pages (original content-laden pages) are not only supp'd but then dropped even further into the "Omitted Results"? These are not pages "slated to go there", but rather totally legit and original pages of content that Google wants in its index. Has there ever been a case of re-inclusion from the "omitted results"? I know that we're all really hanging on to the hopes here, but when I step back it just seems so far-fetched that Google would re-include our sites right where they were before (improvement seems completely out of the question, even though we were steadily improving before).

This isn't only Supp hell, but for our site it's as though we're not even included in Hell. The site is not very big (only ~150 pages), but the drop in traffic is killing us.

I have another theory: My site in question made some dramatic improvements in the SERPS in the BD datacenters vs. where we were prior to BD. Could this be a theme for many others? Perhaps those of us who did things particularly right were relegated to Google Purgatory for affirmation? Just a thought...

Grinler




msg:752850
 9:22 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)


This isn't only Supp hell, but for our site it's as though we're not even included in Hell. The site is not very big (only ~150 pages), but the drop in traffic is killing us.

No this is part of the so-called glitch. Remember we need to forget the supplementals here. The pages that we are seeing in the supps are prob legit for this situation. The main problem is that all our good pages have been dropped from the index, so now when we do a site:domain.com, all we are seeing are the supp pages that were normally never seen before. My site is just like yours...only my home page is shown and a bucketload of supps exist in the index. My 200k+ legit pages no longer exist in the index at all. Thats the glitch, not the fact that we are seeing supp listings.

I am the farthest thing from an SEO expert, but I am making the assumption that if our page is not in the supps, and simply dropped from the index for whatever reason, the next time they crawl it, it will be included again. I have no idea what that is going to do to rankings, but I am sure it wont be good.

Just to make people feel a bit better who are in the same situation as me... I have confirmation that my site is not penalized. From that and GG said, I dont think this is penalty related.

quarryshark




msg:752851
 9:42 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

Maybe nothing...
I recently added a blog to my site. Now on the big daddy DC's it just shows my homepage and 560 some (mostly important) pages as sup.....no blog
But...
on 66.102.9.99 and a few other DC's it has been added to the index. Also shows my site as having 710 pages..all primary indexed.
If my site was "in the dumper", them why would they be spidering and adding pages so fast? I just made this blog page a week ago.
Should we really be discounting DC's that are adding fresh content?

onedodd




msg:752852
 10:16 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

I saw a few small attempts but has anybody really tried to take a shot at finding out what the supplemental sites commonalities are. Not that it would help but just to know?

There must be some reason why some sites good pages have dropped and why some weren't affected.

Could it be regional, the type of hosting, something the affected sites are all doing?

Just like most I have home page indexed and producing very good search results while I watched my best pages drop drom the BD dc's day by day. Each day I lost another page or group of pages until only home and 13k supps remained. All junk - old forum pages, form pages, bad urls, etc.

This dc 66.102.9.99 and a few others has my normal 41k pages indexed and ranking as they always have.

King of Bling




msg:752853
 11:01 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

Many of our pages do exist currently on our site that have gone supplemental. With the site: command, they are typically [domain...] or https://www.domain - yet there are some [domain...] legit pages with PR caught.

Another thing - I don't see any non-supplemental results aside from home page. This is where my dismay lies.

"...but why's the rum gone?" - Jack Sparrow

g1smd




msg:752854
 11:54 pm on Mar 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

>> These pages have been crawled and cached in the supplemental index but not been crawled or cached in the normal index. <<

Not always quite true.

For pages that no longer exist, the supplemental result is usually the old (by date) copy, and that will never be updated again.

For pages that do still exist but with changed content, the supplemental result is returned for content that used to be on the page, but no longer is, and the normal result is what is returnd for any searches based on the currect content.

For some pages where the page is now excluded by "robots.txt" Google has reverted to showing a cached page from a month or two before the page was disallowed.

Google are seemingly saying to me "Heh, we know you don't want those pages indexed, so what we'll do is show our users what was on those pages at a time when they were allowed to be indexed. Here is what the page looked like a year ago."

And, if that is their policy, then it sucks. The reason the URLs were recently (if you can call a year ago, recent) added to robots.txt was simply "oh #*$!, we don't need any of that stuff crawled, or indexed at all".

g1smd




msg:752855
 12:41 am on Mar 8, 2006 (gmt 0)

>> I just tried the "site:domain.com -www.domain.com" type of search <<

Can I get everyone to try these three searches instead/too:

site:domain.com
site:domain.com -inurl:www
site:www.domain.com

Grinler




msg:752856
 1:04 am on Mar 8, 2006 (gmt 0)

[quote]Can I get everyone to try these three searches instead/too:/quote]

Tried..same for all three

Abhilash




msg:752857
 1:16 am on Mar 8, 2006 (gmt 0)

Here I've heard many people talk about pages either relegated to the Supps or else out of the index altogether. What about pages that are stored in the "Omitted Results"? What could that be saying about them?

The pages that I've got stored in the "Omitted Results" are all totally good & legit pages. I just haven't heard anyone else mention this at all.

Additionally, as many of us have probably already tried, I had already emailed the Gmail address from SES (SESNYC06 at gmail dot com), done the reinclusion request, and also responded to the auto-reply that a reinclusion request generates (as I heard was the best way to get an actual human to look at it). However, searching for another ear to whine at, I went for our AdWords rep with a sincere & desperate email. The AdWords Rep went ahead and fwd'd my email to her "User Support Team" marked urgent. I am thinking that the latest tactic might score some points, and so others might get ahead with that tactic as well (for those of you with AdWords reps).

For some reason, the AdWords reps seem to get things done (hmmm, imagine that). ;)

Boogalou




msg:752858
 12:59 am on Mar 8, 2006 (gmt 0)

Yay! My site was just listed in the DMOZ last week and I thought things were finally lookin up. Then I noticed at about the same time that 90% of my pages had gone supplemental, still have pr, completely white hat site, blah blah blah.

So where do I get my club ID card?

Pirates




msg:752859
 1:50 am on Mar 8, 2006 (gmt 0)

Hi Boogalou another new member? Maybe this whole thing is a bizzare recruitment ploy for webmasterworld. LOL.

quarryshark




msg:752860
 2:07 am on Mar 8, 2006 (gmt 0)

"So where do I get my club ID card? "

Hurry and get it, the wine and cheese bar is open. :)

I sent a email to G as well and got the autoresponse. I'm sure they are getting 1000s of these right now. Sure wish they would read a few of them.

g1smd




msg:752861
 2:20 am on Mar 8, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>> What about pages that are stored in the "Omitted Results"? What could that be saying about them? <<

It means they are considered to be "too similar" to the already listed pages: duplicate content.

Having the same title tag and/or meta description is enough to trigger it. Make sure that those tags are different on every page of the site, and that every one describes exactly what is on that page, per page.

Make sure too, that all your non-www URLs issue a 301 redirect pointing to the same page, but on the www version of your site. That's another place that duplicate content can occur, if you forget to set up this redirect.

steveb




msg:752862
 2:36 am on Mar 8, 2006 (gmt 0)

Try this...

For a variety of reasons Google sometimes takes a snapshot of a page and then stores it in a separate supplemental index, forever.

Google continues to crawl the Internet normally, updating pages completely separate from the snapshot process above.

If your "normal" page is removed/lost/deleted from the regular index, the snapshot page will show in its place. You can't get rid of that snapshot page no matter what. Some folks have lost their normal results, so therefore the snapshot supplementals, that have been lurking in the background for years, now appear instead of the normal pages.

As has been explained above, if this has happened to you, you aren't trying to "get rid" of the supplementals, you can't, you are simply trying to get your normal pages listed again. This could occur in the usual way pages get crawled, or by a box getting kicked at the googleplex, or your "normal" pages could stay out because Google has (in most cases incorrectly) decided they were duplicates or whatever.

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