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This 425 message thread spans 15 pages: < < 425 ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 > >     
Dealing With Consequences of Jagger Update
Your site dropped? Lost rankings? What to do now?
reseller

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 8:25 am on Nov 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hi Folks

Jagger is winding down and life must go on. If Jagger has been kind to your site, Congrats. But for the rest of fellow members who lost rankings or their sites dropped of the index, its time to do some thinking and decide on what to improve or change on your affected websites. Still ethical measures are what interest me most.

Some food for the thought.

After my site was hit by Allegra (2-3 Feb 2005) and lost 75% of my Google's referrals and hit for second time on 22nd July 2005 ending up with only 5-10% of pre-Allegra Google's referrals.
My site is now back to the level of around 50% of pre-Allegra Google's referrals and growing... until further. I say "until further" because who knows what the next update or "everflux" do to my site!

Before my site returned back around 19-22 Sept 2005 (very slow at the begining), I went through my site several times for months and did the followings:

- removed duplicate pages. In my case it was several testing pages (even back to 1997) which I just forgot on the server.

- removed one or two 100% frame pages.

- removed some pre-sell affiliate program pages with content provided entirely by affiliate program vendors.

- removed few (affiliate referrals) outbound links which was on the menu bar of all pages (maybe we are talking about sitewide linking).

- on resource pages, I reduced the outbound links to be less than 100 .

- made a 301 redirect non-www to www (thanks to my good Norwich friend Dayo-UK).

- finally filed a reinclusion request in accordance with the guidelines posted on Matt's blog (thanks Mr. Inigo).

Would you be kind to tell us how Jagger Update affected your site, and what do you intend to do about it.

Thanks!

 

angiolo

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 10:50 am on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hi reseller!

I do not think that the keywords in content is so important.

For example a forgot to delet a page that was just a work in progress, with no content ( only the templete content).

In noted form my logs that for a 4-keyword phrase I rank at the top on 1.680.000 results!
That page was just "copied" from anothe of my sites and the keyword were only in the title, and in the meta name="keywords" and in meta name="description...

It's curious that those keywords were not targeted for the sites..... It means that the site do not receive links with that keywords in the anchor text.

The site has a genuine page rank of 6.
So, I think that if you have a good page rank the most important place for the keywords is the title and the description...

MHes

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 12:08 pm on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

suggy - I agree

There is an important factor that is easily missed in threads like this one. People talk of 'the keywords I target', when in reality big traffic almost always never comes from one keyword or a few targeted phrases. I accept a very few sectors might be difficult to search for without using a particular phrase, but joe public still manages to create a huge variation of search terms for most sectors.

Here's an example. Our traffic dropped during jagger 90% but ranked number 1 for all the so called top keywords. Phrases I dreamed about being number 1 for we picked up..... no traffic resulted. After Jagger, we lost all those keywords and regained all the old ones... our traffic went up by 15000 uniques per day. No one phrase is searched for more than 100 times per day and 90% less than 10 times per day. All the traffic is relevant for our site.

People get obsessive about ranking for a few keywords that they think are important. They almost always are not. They either premeditate what they think people search for and/or use keyword tools that are hopelessly missleading. A keyword tool may show 'widget' as by far the most common word searched for, but this is usually in combination with thousands of variations or accounts for only a fraction of the overall potential traffic. The vast proportion of traffic for most sectors is gained from thousands of phrases with no individual one ever appearing near the top of a keyword tool list. In our case, the traffic comes in as follows:

"Big Keyword" - 1%
"widget + Big Keyword" - 5%
"Widget + obscure variations difficult to predict" - 60%
"Complete variations" - 34%

So even if we succeeded in getting top positions for "Big Keyword" (as we briefly did) we get little traffic. The trick is to concentrate on overall traffic to your site, not specific rankings or keywords.

I suspect this point is not lost on Google. The serps webmasters look at are not that important. Google may not produce good results for "widget" or "widget + Big Keyword" because in the grand scheme of things it is not a high priority. Their users are searching using infinite combinations of words only found deep within a page. It is this area that the serps and algo's are designed to work well for. If someone stuffs a page with a phrase, all they are doing is reducing the chances of appearing for other variations and this is where the traffic is. If they rank high for this 'assumed' traffic pulling phrase... so what? They won't get much traffic anyway.

Commenting on the quality of one search phrase is to miss the way the user searches. So called "big search phrases" are a myth and Google is not interested in getting the perfect result for these. They concentrate on being relevant for combinations of words found deep on a page. Thus, if a spammy site focuses on one phrase and gets a top position, it does not matter.... probably webmasters are the only people to notice it.

suggy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 1:35 pm on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

Funny you should say that MHes. Exact same thing happened to me kept the "big" keyword combos - the one's everyone optimises for and lost 66% of traffic. Discovered that we'd lost the tail - the 1000-plus product and other pages that rank for a few searches everyday. That's the bit that adds up. Once they returned from being supplemental URL-only, everything went back to normal. And, even the results people optimise for (where spam / distortion is most likely) are very, very good.

Hissingsid

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 5:08 pm on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hi,

So when you look at the Adwords keyword tool and Overture keyword tool, manage to get pages ranking top for what those tools both say are the top keywords in your market and find that this is confirmed in your logs are you saying that this is wrong?

I guess that it depends on your market. In my market the keyword tools in Overture and Adwords which provide stats based on historical data do provide a very accurate guide to what terms are successful. IMHO these tools are a very good starting point for researching target keywords.

Best wishes

Sid

reseller

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 5:27 pm on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

angiolo

>>Hi reseller!

I do not think that the keywords in content is so important.<<

Hi angiolo

Thanks for sharing.

From what I read of feedback of yours and the other friends, I'm just thinking; are we looking at new SEO trends? because in the "past" every SEO guru would tell us about the importance of keywords in the body when it comes to ranking.

Now we see that the keywords within tha body has no effect on page ranking, at least as far as Google is concerned!

Very interesting indeed!

MHes

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 7:49 pm on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hissingsid
>So when you look at the Adwords keyword tool and Overture keyword tool, manage to get pages ranking top for what those tools both say are the top keywords in your market and find that this is confirmed in your logs are you saying that this is wrong?

Not wrong, but a dangerous red herring. Firstly overture 'publishers' screw the figures. If a publisher does a pre search for a phrase to get results automatically populating the page then that phrase clocks up hits despite visitors to the page coming in on different search phrases.

The other point is that a keyword phrase may be the most popular phrase, but in the grand scheme of things it is a tiny percentage of the overall potential traffic. Your logs are just like the keyword tool, they show the most popular phrase and the thousands of variations get lost further down the list, but this is where 90% of the traffic is. Rather than focusing on phrases, one should focus on word proximity to catch many phrases.

MHes

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 7:52 pm on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

>Now we see that the keywords within tha body has no effect on page ranking, at least as far as Google is concerned!

All content is important, but specific phrases are not. Forget chasing phrases, go for the bigger picture.

Hissingsid

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 8:27 pm on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

MHes said >>"The other point is that a keyword phrase may be the most popular phrase, but in the grand scheme of things it is a tiny percentage of the overall potential traffic."

We'll have to agree to disagree. What you say sounds great in theory but in practice the 80:20 rule kicks in. 80% of my business comes from the top 20% of search terms.

I buy Adwords and Overture clicks. I know what happens when I let my ranking, in the bidding, in two specific phrases drop below the top 3. Yes I have loads of other variations where the bidding is much lower but by far the majority of people use one two word term or one three word term. I should say that I rank #1 on Google for those terms and #1 or #2 on every other big player search engine for those terms but have found that sponsored listing for the important terms is becoming more and more important.

In practice your site will be more successful if it ranks well for the terms that people in your market use most often than if it ranks well for all of the tertiary terms that odball searchers use.

Thats why folks complain so loudly here when they loose those key rankings. Often people maintain their rankings for the more obscure terms but lose the really critical and most competitive ones. They have often fought long and hard to gain top billing for the top terms and see their business switched off when they lose just two or three.

Best wishes

Sid

MHes

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 8:57 pm on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

Arbitrage :)

ksoper78

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 9:07 pm on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

suggy,

Do a search for "timeshare" and you'll see some a spammy site or two show-up. Also seeing some non-relevant results. One site is a news article about some guy who was a "timeshare spammer". I really don't think that is what people want to see when they do a search for "timeshare".

I've tried doing some searches in Google for everyday stuff since Jagger and can't find anything. I fidn myself going 4-5 pages deep. These results are horrible! I've had to switch to Yahoo to get what I am searching for. Their results aren't much better.

Thankfully, my site moved up just slightly since Jagger! But to be honest, the results look really bad!

trimmer80

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 9:47 pm on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

Only large sites that get traffic from 1000's of keyphrases I have noticed that although traffic decreased slightly, conversion increased. To me this says that the traffic quality that is sent is better, thus SERPs are better. Could be a result of seasonal influences though, although i have seen this on non-seasonal sites.

reseller

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 7:22 am on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

MHes

>>The vast proportion of traffic for most sectors is gained from thousands of phrases with no individual one ever appearing near the top of a keyword tool list. In our case, the traffic comes in as follows:
"Big Keyword" - 1%
"widget + Big Keyword" - 5%
"Widget + obscure variations difficult to predict" - 60%
"Complete variations" - 34%
So even if we succeeded in getting top positions for "Big Keyword" (as we briefly did) we get little traffic. The trick is to concentrate on overall traffic to your site, not specific rankings or keywords. <<

So how to run "targeted" marketing campaigns if 94% of your target is hard to predict (:(

MHes

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 9:13 am on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

>Only large sites that get traffic from 1000's of keyphrases

Not true. One page with 1000 words can pick up 1000's of phrases.

>So how to run "targeted" marketing campaigns if 94% of your target is hard to predict (:(

A targeted 'campaign' done on your site through seo will only pick up traffic that used your targeted phrase. That's the point I'm making. A ppc campaign will in reality source traffic from users who originally searched for variations of that phrase but have been guided to you.

reseller

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 9:31 am on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

MHes

>>A targeted 'campaign' done on your site through seo will only pick up traffic that used your targeted phrase. That's the point I'm making. A ppc campaign will in reality source traffic from users who originally searched for variations of that phrase but have been guided to you.<<

Thanks. So what you are saying is something to the effect; SEO on site can generate around 6% of targeted traffic. Right?

suggy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 9:42 am on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

ksoper78

"Timeshare" - isn't the whole industry made up of crooks, fraudsters and undesirables anyway? It seems appropriate that there should be a fair representation of undesirables in the searches too!

MHes

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 10:07 am on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

Sort of.

Any one phrase will only generate a small amount of the potential relevant traffic. A few sectors will have a limited amount of variations, but it is amazing what words people actually use in their searches. So, lets say you want traffic for "widget hire". The biggest phrase on a keyword tool will be "widget hire" and if you do a site which seo's for this phrase you will see in your logs that "widget hire" is your best phrase. You may be number 1 so you think "...great, 80% of my business is generated by this phrase and the keyword tools confirm that this is the one to chase". The reality may be very different. The searches on Google by joe public during an hour may have been:

"widget hire"
"widget hire in London"
"widget hire with safety harness"
"widget hire for under 21"
"widget hire"
"cheap widget hire"
"holiday widget hire"
"Where can I get widget hire"
"widddddget hire"
"gadget hire"
"small pink gismo hire"
"hiring a widget"

So "widget hire" is the most common, but only 2 out of 12. Because you concentrated your seo on this one phrase, you probably do not rank for the others. Far more effective seo will produce a more balanced page that will rank well for all the phrases. Now lets say you are an adsense publisher. The best bid is for "widget hire" so you manipulate the page so Google shows these bidders on your page. You thus convert the traffic into "widget hire" traffic for the advertisers and get maximum commission. The advertisers try bidding for more obscure phrases, but you don't publish those, hence you continue the myth that "widget hire" is what people search for and the only source of good traffic.

zikos



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 10:37 am on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

"So even if we succeeded in getting top positions for "Big Keyword" (as we briefly did) we get little traffic. The trick is to concentrate on overall traffic to your site, not specific rankings or keywords"
Same boat here reseler ,I think that is mostly a case of a kind of penalty I have since 22/11.

jdhuk

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 4:17 pm on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

MHes,

A great post and one of them golden nuggets that us newbies should be looking out for on these very forums.

One thing I would like to ask is... as you know just sprinkling various other words into your text to make different variations of your main key word is not enough to get good search results in Google, (heh wish it was that easy) So one would have to vary their link campaign to get these new words in your text more noticeable, how do you know what exactly these variations are with out using a key word tool?

Am I right by getting the gist of what your saying is: Because the keyword variations aren't as competitive as the main key word a small link campaign would be sufficient for these variations. Think out side of the box and try to think like Joe Public would when s/he's searching for information that you provide on your site?

MHes

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 5:56 pm on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

jdhuk

It's difficult to predict what people will search for. I just had a look at my stats for October... 450,000 search phrases we picked up, with the most frequent being 127 times. When, as I described earlier in this thread, we had the top positions for the top 10 keyword phrases according to overture, we got minimal traffic. I would have a brain storm with some friends if I was you, and collect keywords associated with a target phrase, then clump them together in well constructed sentences, throughout your page.

I accept some topics are hard to get variations for, but they will be there. An older person will use different phrases to a young person or an expert will define the search using technical language, while a novice will be descriptive.

Joern_Malek

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 7:08 pm on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

A great post and one of them golden nuggets that us newbies should be looking out for on these very forums.

Yes and No,
if we all start making keyword-variations of our main key-words (some programms do that too) the same will happen as with links, and all the work, even the white hat work, will be for nothing in the future. Why not simply add good information or articles containing uncoutable variations about the subject.

We also have far over 100,000 search-strings coming to our site per month, and it is not necessary the #1 string that produces most sales.

Have a happy day
Jörn

steve40

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 7:37 pm on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

I wonder if this should be a topic on it's own as i am sure it's truly a useful nugget for those trying to understand SEO and obtaining traffic

I also looked at my stats for 5 sites for October and similar patterns to others feedback, on referrals that came in through SE's

400,000 referrals and the top 5 only accounted for 1.1% of all referrals and the 2 of the 5 top refferals were never targetted by any of my sites ie BL's Title keyword optimisation

The other thing that should be noted for webmasters is the amount of visitors who revisit these are the visitors that keep our businesses afloat when the SE's change algo's and can crucify our livelihood.
In my own case I think return visitors is about 30% but it is much harder to tell with my stats package as bots etc etc seem to be included in my no referral stats and my own reckoning puts bots etc as about 25% of my overall traffic

It might be helpfull for someone to start a discussion in webmaster general as these are not specific to Google or jagger update

just my warped view of the webmasters woes and worries

steve

headache1987

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 7:58 pm on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

I've found four our site (we have 100's of keywords, but our "main" keyword) we are number one and two when you remove the filters, however we are much lower then that with the filters.

Has anyone else found this?

Does anyone have information on what the google filters actually are?

Joern_Malek

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 8:19 pm on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

I've found four our site (we have 100's of keywords, but our "main" keyword) we are number one and two when you remove the filters, however we are much lower then that with the filters.

I participated in a new Filter (beta at that time) about a year ago and lost all traffic that had the filtered key-words. After eliminating all filters traffic came back little by little. Today I have no filters at all but ads only on our yellow-pages, that don't compete with our main business.

I believe the filters help find Google good places to put their ads, instead of your site, once they see the page-count.

Have a happy day
Jörn

ken_b

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ken_b us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 10:57 pm on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

> ...this should be a new topic/thread...

Yup this last tangent could easily be a great thread. I'm afraid it'll get lost in the shuffle here.

That said, my experience pretty much matches what Mhes and others are saying about numbers.

We tend to look at this stuff from a webmasters point of view. The surfing public hasn't got a clue what that means, and doesn't care.

They use search terms they're comfy with. If we know what's good for us, we'll be thinking like a user, rather than hoping users start thinking like webmasters.

Joern_Malek

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 11:18 pm on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

That's a good idea. But somebody with more experience than me should start the topic (maybe our moderator)and please let me know where it is.

have a happy day
Jörn

Patrick Taylor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 11:38 pm on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

one of them golden nuggets...

I agree, and cast my vote for a new thread.

Miop

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 11:45 pm on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

Don't know if this helps anybody else, but now dust settling, my site seems to be suffering some kind of over-optimisation 'penalty', i.e. some pages have excellent positions - they all have low keyword density (under 4%). Those pages with higher density are being held down (high for allinanchor - nowhere in serps).
I know this is nothing new, but I haven't changed any of the text on the site which ranked highly before Jagger - the only thing I have done is remove straplines and template content which made pages too similar. What was acceptable previously looks to be wrong now.

The pages above mine with high density are massively crosslinked spam (which G has still not removed!).

HTH.

annej

WebmasterWorld Senior Member annej us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 4:02 am on Dec 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>The vast proportion of traffic for most sectors is gained from thousands of phrases with no individual one ever appearing near the top of a keyword tool list. In our case, the traffic comes in as follows:
"Big Keyword" - 1%
"widget + Big Keyword" - 5%
"Widget + obscure variations difficult to predict" - 60%
"Complete variations" - 34% <<

I get 7% for my big single keyword but then I am 5th in Google serps for it. I agree with you that most visitors come from an incredible variety of key words but I still value that 7%. As they have arrived on a more general search I have an opportunity to get some new fans who decide they are interested in my niche topic and will hopefully come back again and again.

LegalAlien

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 4:51 am on Dec 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Wow, I thought this thread had died. No posts for a week, then 'Bam', some of the most interesting information to come out of this update saga. Thanks Miop and others for some really useful traffic info.

reseller

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 7:17 am on Dec 13, 2005 (gmt 0)

Good morning Folks

This thread is still about dealing with the consequence of Jagger Update (not the update or test DC ;-))

One of the consequences of Jagger, is the emphasis on duplicate contents. And it seems "contents" sometimes also cover phrases not to say chapters. I.e we are risking that Google devaluate our pages or even sites because of that.

We as webmasters are facing a real problem here. Especially those of us who are selling products of different variations but basically of same "material specifications".

Furthermore, and talking about duplicates and added value, I read on Inigo's blog his remark concerning articles and added value.

Matt wrote:
"Boney, if someone is just syndicating articles from ezine or articlecity or wherever, that’s not adding a lot of value in my book."

Matt graciously replied today to a post of one of his visitors whom disagreed with Matt's above statement, and mentioned few reasons behind his statement:

"Harith, the danger is that you end up with an article written by someone else, and you have an article that also sits on many other sites. But you’re right, that is a thread for a different day."

[mattcutts.com...]

So we as webmasters have ended in a position where syndicated articles and duplicate phrases on our sites might cause our sites to drop in rankings or subject our sites to be penalized by the folks at the plex.

How are we going to deal with such problems?

texasville

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 32004 posted 7:54 am on Dec 13, 2005 (gmt 0)

Reseller!..Good morning to you!
Let me tell you a story about my clients site..
I wrote many articles about safety and usage of his product line..
I have a secondary index about those articles..all original content and some have been picked up across the web and reprinted. Fine. no problem. They give full credit and a link back (the link back in most cases). All the articles carry our copyright in them and in the meta tags.
On some of them, I just did a description of them with a ...read more
and on some of them I used the first 3-4 sentences and a ...read more
Well, on all the ones I used direct content- the 3-4 sentences- have ALL gone dup content and relegated to supplemnetal listings in all the test dc's and varies back and forth on my google.com
So..I think this means that they have turned the dup content filter up so much that it is kicking even 3-4 sentence repition into supplemental.
The bad thing about this is that the articles are very pertinent and I get many hits on other se's from them.
If google ever gets it together and eliminates the supplementals- all those articles will go down the drain.
But it is proof because the articles I used just the description of in the sub index are not supplemental.

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