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Update Saga. Part 5
Brett_Tabke




msg:754449
 8:26 pm on Nov 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

What say you?

Over and done with?

All done all through?

 

zeus




msg:754599
 3:05 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

I remember 1-1,5 years ago, all caches where not older then a month, supplemental results was not realy a deal, omitted results fisrst showed after 100.000 of pages, url only was only for a short time, then the description went back and so on.

Now webmaster has the most wierd problems and all on google, never a issue on any other SE, a little 302 problem was on yahoo, but was fixed in a month.

LegalAlien




msg:754600
 3:08 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

>> Listen Google! My good Norwich friend Dayo_UK is filing today a reinclusion request. You take good care of Dayo_UK request as good as he is taking care of so many WebmasterWorld webmasters, or else. Thanks a bunch :-) <<

Or else what, reseller? Are you going to stop telling GG what a wonderful guy he is? You can keep singing GG praises and keep kidding yourself that this is a good update, but the fact is the majority of people here appear to be far worse off than they were 2 months ago.

You keep telling GG and MC how great they are, and keep believing that they care. Google will keep pushing junk to the top of the serps, and you can post your spam reports and continue to believe you're part of the update process. With anywhere up to 266 million results for our key search terms, a few people posting reports is really going to make a difference, right?

It's supposed to be acceptable for clean sites with good content to be sent to never-never land for 2 months, after long-term top-10 positions because Google is attempting to improve its results, while at the same time many junk sites enjoy prime listings during this critical pre-Christmas run-up? 2 months! 2 months, for goodness sake!

I've seen it argued here in the past that Google has no responsibility to anyone, but come on! With some 65 percent of the entire world using Google to find what it's looking for, this is serious power. Surely with so much power comes a certain amount of responsibility?

Google says you shouldn’t do this and you shouldn’t do that, so the people here listen and follow. What happens? They disappear for 2 months, while the abundance of do this/do that sites remain in prime positions!

Dayo-UK has been just as active as you in this forum, has made many relevant and beneficial comments, and would serve as a prime example as to how little it helps to be an active part of the update process.

Agree or disagree, that's up to you. We're all friends here, and everyone deserves their say!

Pico_Train




msg:754601
 3:14 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

Goohoosoft has been launched.

colin_h




msg:754602
 3:15 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

Johnhh,

I understand completely. The trouble with tech issues is that they usually don't often touch the general public's world. However, this issue does directly effect every business that was sucked into to idea of 'build a website and sell to the world'. This statement should now be re-worded 'Build a website and get 2 or 3 hits per day from search engine spiders that will ignore you because you don't have enough money to pay for your listings'.

I only build sites for small companies and I've watched them struggle to find a niche and to nervously build their company on the back of something as fragile as a Google listing. As time goes on and they have a few enquiries / sales per day they become confident that they are doing things right. Then WALLOP! They're booted of an index for some kind of link swapping offence. They don't know what that means & until we, the web marketeers of the world understand it, we can't fix it.

With hindsight, you're right ... this probably wouldn't go down too well in a press release. But I still think that when it hits the tax department, companies like these putting in losses when they were looking so good last year ... the S will certainly hit the F.

All the Best ;-)

colin_h




msg:754603
 3:17 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

LegalAlien,

Very cool response. I think it's time that the Gods heard how rendundant they've become. :-0

biggles338




msg:754604
 3:19 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

I wonder if there were some targets within google for this update. The measurements that they have made indicate that those targets where achieved. So the update was a success, and the things they didn't measure are just 'collatoral damage' until they decide they should measure them.

If they notice that their revenue drops or they have to spend money on PR because of the negative impact they have had, then they measure things that they think are contributing to this situation.

A google user group that was prepared to write articles and make press releases about the probably unintended damage that google is doing to a particular interest group would get their very focussed attention.

The problem at the moment is that google are both defendent and the jury. Their dominant position in the market means that a huge proportion of the business around the entire world see their business results change as a result of some unidentified person somewhere in the bowels of google tweaking something. Whether the tweaking was done with the intention of putting Sam's Internet Pizza shop in downtown Singapore out of business or not doesn't make any difference to Sam - he is still bankrupt.

Google has rapidly aged into one of those old world companies that is so pleased with itself that it has forgotten to talk to the people on whom it's business depends. I thought that the move by GG and MC to do some communication was an indication that they had woken up. But when the communication stops because they don't like what they hear, or because they have no intention of doing anything about it, then it is hard not to feel that it was not an honest move. If they were prepared to admit that there had been collatoral damage, and make it look like they were doing something about it, I would see that as a good sign. Unfortunately what I see is the opposite.

Block19Row13




msg:754605
 3:28 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

hello everyone.

just a quicky then ill be off.

when our listings dissapeared at the start of this week i came on here and found out about this update thing.

i did some research and found articles saying not to panic, the dust has yet to settle, listings can come back etc etc.

are we still in the dont panic stage? or is it a case of panic everyone, your listings are gone for good?

Ankhenaton




msg:754606
 3:29 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

I thought that the move by GG and MC to do some communication was an indication that they had woken up.

We do not know GG intentions. So even if he is trying to do his best and is a nice guy, he is one employee, probably having a gagging contract. Maybe individual G employees don't yet see themselves what is going on and the power they have and the damage they can cause. For someone tweaking on that algorithm it's a line on the screen. For Joe's pizza it's bankruptcy, suicide or divorce. For someone else a Rolls Royce. With these updates coming so often it's really difficult now to prepare and build a reserve to compensate for Google Quakes.

colin_h




msg:754607
 3:32 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

That would be a good press release ... Lets out GG.

Only kidding he's probably got our best interests at heart ...

WebFusion




msg:754608
 4:09 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

For Joe's pizza it's bankruptcy, suicide or divorce.

geez...talk about hypebole...

Frankly, if "Joe" has a business that cannot exist without free traffic from google, then Joe's business deserves what it gets.

Jagger 3 looks good to me. We're not at the top where we were, but alot of the spam is gone, and we're slowly moving up as more epinions/dealtime/amazon/bizrate and other review site clones get dropped. There still some work to do, but definitely an improvement.

FYI - Last year at this time our site was still in the sandbox, and (miracle of miracles) we were still able to turn a strong profit despite no google traffic.

Imagine that.

europeforvisitors




msg:754609
 4:13 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

For someone tweaking on that algorithm it's a line on the screen. For Joe's pizza it's bankruptcy, suicide or divorce. For someone else a Rolls Royce.

So? Try launching a restaurant or opening a play, where a negative review by the right (or wrong) person can wipe out your investment overnight.

Google's job is to serve users, not to keep you or me or the next guy in business--just as reviewers for THE NEW YORK TIMES are paid to serve playgoers or restaurant patrons, not theatrical producers or restaurant owners.

colin_h




msg:754610
 4:26 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

Oh I see the Google boys are back in town. Do you honestly think that that arguement still holds up? You're in deep ... real deep

colin_h




msg:754611
 4:32 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

I refer you to my earlier posts regarding searching for 'Norwich web designers' and getting the one railways index page at number 7. That's really helping everyone.

reseller




msg:754612
 4:36 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

LegalAlien

First off, I do understand and appreciate how you and other kind fellow members who losts their pages/sites on Google´s serps feel.

I have been myself there. Allegra (2-3 Feb 2005) took away 75% of my Google´s referrals. On 22nd July 2005 I lost most of the rest and left with only about 5-10% of what I had pre-Allegra. Was it fun? not at all. Were I frustrated and upset? Yes you bet.

>>Or else what, reseller? Are you going to stop telling GG what a wonderful guy he is? You can keep singing GG praises and keep kidding yourself that this is a good update, but the fact is the majority of people here appear to be far worse off than they were 2 months ago.<<

Lets keep in mind that GoogleGuy is our fellow WebmasterWorld member and the TOS apply for him, you and I. Mutual respect is the name of these forums game, IMO. Furthermore, I shall keep telling GG and Matt how
wonderful guys they are as long as they help us with much needed info, especially during updates, and there have been several of them and many of them yet to come.

Lets just ask ourselves a simple question: Have we been so informed during Jagger Update without continuos weather reports and comments from GG and Matt?

How many of us knew in advance the correct and effective way to file a reinclusion request before we read it on Matt's blog?

>>You keep telling GG and MC how great they are, and keep believing that they care. Google will keep pushing junk to the top of the serps, and you can post your spam reports and continue to believe you're part of the update process. With anywhere up to 266 million results for our key search terms, a few people posting reports is really going to make a difference, right?<<

Oh well..

I can find on several threads within few minutes the first 100 posts of fellow members asking Google to remove spam sites of the index. Even within Jagger Update threads, you can find many of posts of the kind.

Then GoogleGuy and Matt responded posatively and posted guidelines to submit spam reports, especially during Jagger Update. Shouldn't we all support such effort? Isn't it a win-win deal?

>>Agree or disagree, that's up to you. We're all friends here, and everyone deserves their say!<<

Well said. Thanks!

[edited by: reseller at 4:39 pm (utc) on Nov. 10, 2005]

Ankhenaton




msg:754613
 4:38 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebFusion and europeforvisitors

I agree ..

Still Google that has a lot of power. It's completely irrelevant what who has done and who deserves what and who can do the same. If G turns the algo there is a human fall out.

I just state what is happening. :)

As said above someone else gets a Rolls Royce .. If you decide to concentrate on the negative part, that's your thing. ;)

It's Googles employees problem if they can live with that responsability.

An algo change is not a pure technical change, it has a world wide human impact. That is an undeniable fact.

[edited by: Ankhenaton at 4:45 pm (utc) on Nov. 10, 2005]

europeforvisitors




msg:754614
 4:39 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

Colin, I'm not seeing that result in a Google search, but I do see a Norwich hair designer in the #8 position at Yahoo. :-)

Dayo_UK




msg:754615
 4:42 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>>Lets keep in mind that GoogleGuy is our fellow WebmasterWorld member and the TOS apply for him, you and I. Mutual respect is the name of these forums game, IMO.

Yes, exactly - and I hope that I have not offended GG or MC at any time - maybe I have been a bit to bolshy (you have that word in the US?)

I know they have probably got tough skin nowadays - but I try to concentrate posts on issues rather than personalities, etc :)

>>>but I do see a Norwich hair designer in the #8 position at Yahoo

He he, Colin example does appear on all DCs.

Your Yahoo example is a tricky one to rank though - Designer and a City name are common(ish) words and Web can just be used as in Web Site.

So someone who has Designer in a City and has the word web on the page/backlinks etc (as in Welcome to our Web Site) could rank for the term.

[edited by: Dayo_UK at 4:49 pm (utc) on Nov. 10, 2005]

WebPixie




msg:754616
 4:46 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

I would offer this at least.

Google is suppose to be there to help the user find what he/she is looking for, correct?

Then could we at least agree that if the user types in "mydomain.com", with the .com, then my domain should be number 1 unless I've been removed from the index?

Some of these penalties/filters have gotten out of control. Remember the user? What else could the user possibly be looking for but my site, if they type in mydomain.com?

discobiscuit




msg:754617
 4:50 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

In my area its spam spam spam

I feel i must go to the dark side now

BradStevens




msg:754618
 4:59 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

Gees ... I've been away for a few days ... um, well, ah, um, WORKING ON WEBSITES!

Today, I return to find the same ole' conversation. Shoot, no wonder you guys are getting beet up in the SERPS, you spend all your time chatting instead of actually getting any work done!

I also see some comments which lead me to beleive that some seem to be doing the back stroke on some comments that they fear have put them on the black side of GG/MC. <chuckle>

Good grief ... don't y'all think your time would be better spent not living life in fear and, instead, be bold and create more content?!

ronburk




msg:754619
 5:10 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

but the fact is the majority of people here appear to be far worse off than they were 2 months ago.

Please publish the raw data from the poll you used to uncover this "fact" and describe how you made your sample random and unbiased. Or, perhaps you meant to say "the majority of people complaining about being far worse off" instead of "the majority of people here" -- that would indeed be a fact, tautological in fact.

Just being excited or upset doesn't make opinions facts. There is a difference between the two.

econman




msg:754620
 5:12 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

"the majority of people here appear to be far worse off than they were 2 months ago"

I'm not sure that is true. Not enough WebmasterWorld members have commented to really judge it. But, even if it were true, this could be because:

1. Those who are suffering participate most actively in these threads. The members who aren't being hurt tend to spend their time reading and posting in other threads.

2. The algo changes may be causing specific sites to drop like a rock, but those same algo changes may not cause any other sites to shoot up. Instead, all the other sites could be left about where they were, or moved up a notch or two. If there's nothing exciting to report, we don't report on our situation.

3. Perhaps one of Google's goals in making particular algo changes was to cancel out the "edge" that is given to those site owners who are knowledgeable about SEO. Thus, one would expect WebmasterWorld participants to suffer more than average every time the algos change. Meanwhile the bulk of the sites -- run by less-knowledgeable folks -- move in counter fashion to the WebmasterWorld sites. Stated differently, perhaps WebmasterWorld sites slowly move up between "updates" (as the members reverse engineer the latests twists and turns) and they sharply move down during each update.

Ankhenaton




msg:754621
 5:15 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

Good grief ... don't y'all think your time would be better spent not living life in fear and, instead, be bold and create more content?!

Not really no .. 4/5th worth of content has been destroyed financially, so it's much better to figure out why, as the content is already there.

It's much more meaningful/sensical to -->neutrally<-- analyse what Google is up to and how to create Google safe content and then create content --> in the moment <-- .. and I am thinking in the moment.. ;)

This might not be the right forum though since it's all either Google is great or Google is cr@p instead of an analysis what has really happened. :\

The serps look as good or bad as before to me so .. I don't understand yet where my traffic is and why it's gone, within three days.

After that it might make sense writing content again.

[edited by: Ankhenaton at 5:16 pm (utc) on Nov. 10, 2005]

cleanup




msg:754622
 5:15 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

I do feel that the SERPS are losing relevance.

Take my case (why not its the only one I am familiar with ;))

I promote a hotel in a little known crap town in a
big european country.

For years now (since way before Google) I have
dominated the SERPS for combinations of countryname
hotel AND craptown hotel.

Now I since I was only offering a product in a small
craptown I probably never deserved to dominate the
countryname keywords, but of course I never complained.

Then comes Jagger. Now I dominate the countryname
serps again (phew!) but the really important stuff
including terms like "hotel craptown" are nowhere.

This wrong. Wrong for my buisness and for Google.

So from where I am looking it seems that Google
results must have lost some "precision" after Jagger.

LegalAlien




msg:754623
 5:19 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

What's the deal here? Is there an unwritten rule, whereby if you post about loosing good positions as a result of this update, then the first self-appointed Einstein to read the message is allowed to tell you what a bad businessman you are for depending on free Google traffic?

I have seen this too many times throughout this thread, and those "smart" businessmen are really missing the point.

Where do YOU go when you're looking for something? Are you going to click on a sponsored listing or a banner ad, or do you look to organic results? We all subconsciously ignore sponsored listings and ads, as we know someone paid to have their ad placed there. We head for the organic listings because we know these listings are unbiased -- albeit imperfect.

With hundreds of thousands of daily searches for our key phrases on Google, and some 65 percent of all searchers using Google, being listed in the first few pages of these results is incredibly important. We'd have to be brain-dead if we weren't upset by loosing these listings.

Good Google serps bring huge amounts of targeted and self-directed visitors, who feel they are there because they choose to be, and not because they’ve clicked on an ad, banner or sponsored listing. Conversion rates for such visitors are far higher than other traffic sources for us, as I am sure they are for everyone else that monitors this.

Organic listings are so very important. The fact that they are free is totally immaterial.

For everyone that has suffered as a result of this update, please don't be afraid to say so. Just ignore the authoritative comments from the "smart" businessmen in here -- most of us sympathize and wish you a speedy recovery. Besides, if they really believed what they said, then what ever are they doing in this forum anyway?

Just MHO!

vBMechanic




msg:754624
 5:19 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

If you do a search for 'chitika' ... the company home page is now a referral affiliate link. Nice update for this lucky person!

financialhost




msg:754625
 5:20 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

Then comes Jagger. Now I dominate the countryname
serps again (phew!) but the really important stuff
including terms like "hotel craptown" are nowhere.

The whole point is to filter out the crap results...

;)

cleanup




msg:754626
 5:24 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

Sorry did I say craptown I meant quaint sunny little enclave nestled between majestic mountains and warm medit....

by crap town I meant "small" town. ;)

Ankhenaton




msg:754627
 5:27 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

Someone said something before about secondary index. So the main keyword index is maybe easy but maybe the secondary, so several word combinations, hasn't been done yet. I got loads of visitors from secondary searches in the past. Or maybe having a more detailed index is bad for G business as adwords users may target single keyword searches and not complicated ones. Just guessing. I still believe finding G profit behind an update and then the technical issues is a better approach than just looking at technical issues. A bit like "cherchez la femme". ;)

[edited by: Ankhenaton at 5:32 pm (utc) on Nov. 10, 2005]

WebFusion




msg:754628
 5:31 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

I have seen this too many times throughout this thread, and those "smart" businessmen are really missing the point.

Not at all. I've stated numerous times that free traffic from google is a wonderful bonus...an icing on the cake, if you will.

However, if you peruse these "update" threads (which, in reality, have 1% analysis, and 99% "woe is me" and minute by minute datacenter update content) you'll see many of the same names, month after month, year after year, complaining about their "feast or famine" at the hands of google.

Again, free traffic from any engine is wonderful, profitable, highly targeted, yada yada yada. I agree.

BUT...why on earth would you want to base your ENTIRE business on the whims and possible technical glitches of a marketing channel of which you have NO control? Why not instead use this time (and we're 3-4 weeks into this "update, aren't we?) to seek out new and diversified sources of traffic? Our site receives over 4000 NON-SEARCH ENGINE free visitors per day, from articles, press releases, inbound links, etc. etc. All that traffic converts as well, if not better, than search engine traffic.

That's the point the "smart businessmen" are trying to make. Perhaps if people started using the forums as an analytical tool and a place to exchange ideas, as opposed to a support group for the sharing of the "misery" google has inflicted, we would all be better off.

subway




msg:754629
 5:31 pm on Nov 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

An index update is a MAJOR business operation. At the end more money or at least equal money has to come in

Ankhenaton, that is the most useful thing any of us are going to read regarding this update.

A Google update now *could* if they get it wrong, result in a colossal loss of earnings, nowadays it's so much more serious than tweaking results for SPAM. It's about advancing the company and increasing profits. Let’s get over it, the days of genuine friendly advice postings from G employees are over!

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