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Sandbox
discrete298

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 4:07 pm on Sep 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

My site is about 8 months old and gets decent traffic from Yahoo and MSN, but only gets only a couple of visitors a day from Google for mostly obscure keyphrase searches. The site has many inbound links from pages with PR 5 or higher.

The question is, Is this site in G's sandbox? How long does it take for a site to break out of the sandbox? How will I know when my site gets out of the sandbox?

 

randle

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 6:58 pm on Sep 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

"How do you know you are in the sandbox?".

I’ll take a crack at it, and please the correct term these days is “Filter”!

Your site is indexed
Your site has PageRank
It is regularly crawled, displaying cache dates not more than 10 days old
If you search for the site by entering www.xyz.com, it appears with the proper title, snippet, and url (www, or no www whichever you picked)
You rank in the top 20 for allinanchor
You rank in the top 20 for allintext
You rank in the top 20 for allintitle
You do not rank within the first 1000 places for the keyword the site was designed for

MHes

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 7:03 pm on Sep 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

>.however, is it true?

No. There is no magic way to avoid sandbox. It is a collection of new algos, some of which are applied to links which makes the pr they pass 'mature' over time.

People who say they have a site or a method that avoids sandbox are deluding themselves.

zeus

WebmasterWorld Senior Member zeus us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 7:07 pm on Sep 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

thats also why we dont see new sites, when you make a keyword search, so if you are looking for new sites in a search then go to MSN or Yhaoo

chopin2256

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 7:12 pm on Sep 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

People who say they have a site or a method that avoids sandbox are deluding themselves.

Scary, because this guy apparently is an SEO professional. Apparently these guys do SEO for big sites such as Sony, TurboTax, and more. When I asked the question, is there a way around the sandbox, I was so shocked he said you can pay for a publication (or something like that). I think I forgot what he said because I didn't expect him to even say yes! Really weird. Perhaps this guy is a bit behind on times. But I figured I would at least ask you guys about this.

discrete298

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 8:43 pm on Sep 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

Your site is indexed
Your site has PageRank
It is regularly crawled, displaying cache dates not more than 10 days old
If you search for the site by entering www.xyz.com, it appears with the proper title, snippet, and url (www, or no www whichever you picked)
You rank in the top 20 for allinanchor
You rank in the top 20 for allintext
You rank in the top 20 for allintitle
You do not rank within the first 1000 places for the keyword the site was designed for

If this is sandbox, then my site is in it. Each and every statement apply for my 8 month old website.

Venix

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 9:41 pm on Sep 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

All though I see where Google is coming from with the whole idea of the Sandbox, I think it is really starting to hurt their SERPS. Take the video game market which is extremly popular. When people now search for say Xbox 360 news, they don't find the best Xbox 360 news site. Because many of the best Xbox 360 news sites went online only a few months ago and are still in the sandbox. This is a huge problem with Google since Xbox 360 is coming out in just 2 monhts and people don't have time to wait 12 months do find the info they need today.

mikey158

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 10:27 pm on Sep 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

Wow.. I took the test too for my site.. I pass all of them with flying colors. Is this a good thing? Does it mean I am doing everything ELSE right?

zeus

WebmasterWorld Senior Member zeus us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 10:36 pm on Sep 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

mikey it just a little silly way google update there serps, they are a little paranoid, because some buy backlinks or create 1000 of domains and link them together.

McMohan

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 5:33 am on Sep 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

Apparently these guys do SEO for big sites such as Sony, TurboTax, and more

Guys who handle bluechip companies are the last ones to talk authoritatively about sandbox. They have the luxury of optimizing sites that come with high natural PR and old enough to have any sandbox problems.
The everyday webmaster who handles new sites, gets upclose with sandbox realities.

added: I had the opportunity of optimizing a Fortune 1000 website, and that job was a cakewalk compared to what we face with new websites in competitive field.

Beachboy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 6:25 am on Sep 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

<<very interesting scenario- two identical sites-different languages. It appears like the site with much less competition (2.7 million results) popped out pretty fast. The other (25 million results) is in a really competitive area and is taking much longer.
It seems , based on this perfect scenario, that there must be a percentage of time based on competitiveness of terms for the filters to be removed.>>

Texasville, it's got to be more than just the simple competitiveness of the kw phrases involved. One of my clients spent over a year in the sandbox, the most important kw phrase returns 334,000 results, and it's for a regional (locality related) kw expression.

MHes

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 7:48 am on Sep 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

This guy does work for sony? Try doing site: domain..... quality seo? :) I hope he didn't do that one!

chodges84

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 10:19 am on Sep 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

Your site is indexed
Your site has PageRank
It is regularly crawled, displaying cache dates not more than 10 days old
If you search for the site by entering www.xyz.com, it appears with the proper title, snippet, and url (www, or no www whichever you picked)
You rank in the top 20 for allinanchor
You rank in the top 20 for allintext
You rank in the top 20 for allintitle
You do not rank within the first 1000 places for the keyword the site was designed for

That is my site to a key. pagerank 4, crawlwed twice a week at least etc...

The thing is, my site has been around since april 2004, so could i really be in the sandbox now? I'm ranking well in MSN, and searching for one of my most competitive keywords in ask reveals that I have the top spot!

So why does google hate me so much?

BeeDeeDubbleU

WebmasterWorld Senior Member beedeedubbleu us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 11:05 am on Sep 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

I have just returned from a two week holiday and I was pleasantly surprised to find that two of my sites have now been released from the sandbox (that term will do for me!)

They are both non-profit sites that were created in November/December last year and they are featuring quite highly for their main keywords. I suspect that they may go higher still but they have definitely been outed.

Dont give up!

roodle

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 11:21 am on Sep 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

BeeDeeDoubleU, please tell us what has changed exactly. Is it just the ranking? Did the site fit the above description before this happened?

BeeDeeDubbleU

WebmasterWorld Senior Member beedeedubbleu us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 11:25 am on Sep 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

Yes - the sites I mentioned were classically sandboxed.

subway

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 11:34 am on Sep 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

Guys who handle bluechip companies are the last ones to talk authoritatively about sandbox. They have the luxury of optimizing sites that come with high natural PR and old enough to have any sandbox problems.

Couldn't have been put better. In fact all the blue chips or huge corporations need to do is place the keyword in the title and they're on the first page. A huge Google flaw IMO.

discrete298

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 1:20 pm on Sep 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

Congratulations, BeeDeeDubbleU.

How much extra traffic are you getting now?

BeeDeeDubbleU

WebmasterWorld Senior Member beedeedubbleu us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 2:44 pm on Sep 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

As I say, I just got back from holiday yesterday but it looks as though this may just have happened in the last couple of days.

My traffic looks up by about 50% so far but I don't really pay much attention to the stats from these sites. They are 100% non-commercial and as such they don't earn me anything. Both of them were created at no charge for clubs of which I am a member.

I was just using them for SEO research.

texasville

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 2:59 pm on Sep 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>>>Your site is indexed
Your site has PageRank
It is regularly crawled, displaying cache dates not more than 10 days old
If you search for the site by entering www.xyz.com, it appears with the proper title, snippet, and url (www, or no www whichever you picked)
You rank in the top 20 for allinanchor
You rank in the top 20 for allintext
You rank in the top 20 for allintitle
You do not rank within the first 1000 places for the keyword the site was designed for <<<<<

That was my site exactly- until yesterday. Not only did I rank top 20 for allins but for many I was #1. However, it is a slow ascent in that for some keyphrases in serps I am in the top 200- some I am in top 40. I only got a couple of hits yesterday from google but that is why I ran the serps.
This site is an online presence for a brick and mortar business. It isn't a huge category as the serps generally return less than one million returns but the sites in it that are in the top 40 are very professional, highly optimized sites. Some have been in the dmoz for years. The top performing use hidden links and text. These are "high ticket items" generally purchase runs around $1000 to $2000 for main product and don't expect more than 200 hits a day on the site. So far msn and yahoo provide about 60-70 hits a day and the site ranks extremely well in those two.
Site was first created may '04 and I did a complete redesign in may '05.It really wasn't performing well before that. It disappearred completely from google right after the rebuild. Slowly it reindexed. Then in June it started getting completely indexed but not in top 1000 serps. August was intermitent on it's indexing. Starting in August it got pagerank of 2 on inner pages. Index page only carries pr1. rusty brick predicts index page will stay one but inner pages will go to pr6? go figure.
End of August I had the nicest indexing and descriptions. It was a perfect indexing. Last three weeks google went from visiting every ten days to every other day. It started recaching the page every time.
Now in short, I would never have rebuilt the page as quickly as I did if I had realized the sandbox effect. I started visiting the forums here and every time I learned something, I went back and tweaked the pages. Before this, I was strictly web design and no seo. I lost a client to a black hat firm because the sites I had designed did not rank well. Why? No links- no promotion. I wasn't paid to do that. So, I decided to take this particular site as far as it would go in it's category. I've put many, many hours for free into it. The redesign, the link building, the tweaking, writing articles and getting them published.
Well, now I am rambling. Hopefully, this site will be de-sandboxed completely soon. All filters off. It is completely white hat and should stabilize in the top 10 soon. If it is any indication for the rest of what is in the top 10, it should stay there quite a long time.

Miop

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 4:21 pm on Sep 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

My site passes the 'sandbox' test too, but it is actually a three year old site which used to rank well for highly commercial two kw.
Why would an established site end up in a sandbox?
Also, my PR which has been 4 for years, has decreased to three over the past couple of months.
I still rank well for other commercial 2 KW phrases - the phrases I don't rank well for anymore are those which are premium words on Adwords...

texasville

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 4:27 pm on Sep 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>>>I still rank well for other commercial 2 KW phrases - the phrases I don't rank well for anymore are those which are premium words on Adwords... <<<<<

Miop- interesting observation but somebody has to rank at the top so- is it possible that your drop in page rank is due to loss of ibl's? Maybe some of those also carried those particular keywords as anchor text?

Something else I have noticed lately when looking at my backlinks is how many of them have dropped into the supplemental results. Particularly those that were from articles I published. Lots of those. Wish I could be more help on this.

chodges84

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 6:46 pm on Sep 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

pardon my ignorance, but what are 'supplemental results', and how can you tell between them and 'normal results'.

Miop

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 6:47 pm on Sep 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

My backlinks are dreadful - they used to be good, but most of the decent (relevent) ones have disappeared from my backlinks on Google in that last update. I don't even know how G decides what to include as backlinks.
I don't have any trouble being on p1 or 2 of MSN and Yahoo.

bether2

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 3:54 am on Sep 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

pardon my ignorance, but what are 'supplemental results', and how can you tell between them and 'normal results'.

Supplemental results are labeled as such by google. After the title of site and snippet of text from the site, the next line shows:
www.sitename.com - 35k - Supplemental Result
instead of
www.sitename.com - 35k .

2by4

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 4:14 am on Sep 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Nice to hear that beedee.. it's always nice when sites exit that state.

BeeDeeDubbleU

WebmasterWorld Senior Member beedeedubbleu us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 7:36 am on Sep 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

When I checked these two sites this morning my traffic has doubled and it is still increasing. Both of them are "seasonal" and out of season at present so I expect to see very much higher traffic at the right time of year.

It may be worth pointing out that if you are in a competitive field and you emerge from the sandbox you can expect results far better than I am seeing. for example on one of my commercial sites Google provides 91.86% of my traffic. If this site had come out it would have meant a 10 - 12 fold increase.

JoeHouse

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 12:26 pm on Sep 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

BeeDeeDubbleU

Are you saying that Google treats sites in sandbox better than those who never experienced it?

I am only asking because I have been sitting in the box for close to 6 months and I have done 1000 things right and I am waiting and praying to get out soon.

Currently I see very little traffic at all from google. At this point I am looking for a little reassurance that I will get out and things will start to pick up.

In conclusion, when you get out of the sandbox, you coming running out of the box instead of walking? Am I understanding that correctly?

If yes, why do you thing that is?

BeeDeeDubbleU

WebmasterWorld Senior Member beedeedubbleu us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 1:07 pm on Sep 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Are you saying that Google treats sites in sandbox better than those who never experienced it?

Perhaps I was not making myself clear. I was talking about a best case scenario. What I was saying was that if the site I mentioned had been in the sandbox, came out, and settled in its current position then my traffic on that site would have increased by about 10 -12 fold.

It could actually be much better than this or not so good. The fact that you have served your time in the sandbox does not give you any advantage wrt ranking. This is all dependent on how successfully you have optimised your site. If it is badly optimised you will come out of the box and see little change in traffic while if you have did a good SEO job on it you should see a very large increase. Little has changed in this respect.

Your final placement pre-sandbox was all down to how well your site had been optimised, quality of inbound links, etc. This still applies when you come out of the box.

chodges84

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 5:14 pm on Sep 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

I think my site is stuck at the bottom of the sandbox, and everyone else is jumping on top, and I can't make my way out.

Seriously though, could you possibly be sandboxed for nearly 18 months?

Also, duplicate content wise, my new Irish site is near identical to my .co.uk site, except for the .ie extension, and prices in Euros, and a few other miner changes. Would i be penalised for this, google can see that they are different sites (.ie vs .co.uk), hosted in 2 different countries.

JoeHouse

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 5:17 pm on Sep 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Ok so if some sites get out of the sandbox in a week, while others can take up to a year or more. In your opinion what would you say is the contributing factor or most important factor that gets you out sooner than later?

I am sure we all have opinions on this subject. Lets here them.

Maybe we can help each other figure this out.

stargeek

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31306 posted 5:53 pm on Sep 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

JoeHouse:

I'd say never going into the sandbx is the best way to "get out".

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