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This 662 message thread spans 23 pages: < < 662 ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 ... 23 > >     
:-( : Update...false alarm Sept 2005
What *is* an Update?
straticus

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 8:06 am on Sep 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

Continued from:
[webmasterworld.com...]



It seem the backlink update has begun, not surprising after the heavy spidering lately, good luck everyone!

 

reseller

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 7:55 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

:-( : Update...false alarm Sept 2005
What *is* an Update?

Thats very interesting. I still think that Brett and GoogleGuy were describing two sides of the same coin.
Brett called it update while GG said its just everflux and no algo changes going on right now.

IMHO, we are witnessing the new kind of Google updates, which don´t necessary include an algo changes.

Actually if you study GoogleGuy´s posts in connection with Allegra and Bourbon and now, you discover that he has been telling us that what we usually understand of update has changed to something new which he prefer to describe as "everflux" which doesn´t include algo changes while an "update" must include an algo changes.

That means that today everflux actually covers the changes we usually see on the old updates, for example:

- New serps (but they are everchanging)

- Sites drop or gain in ranking

- New baclink count

etc...

Thoughts?

stinkfoot

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 8:02 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>Thoughts?

Google updates and everflux suck

jd01

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 8:05 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

An update is when members come out of the woodwork screaming "Lawsuit", "Anti-Trust", "Conspiracy" and "Kill the Beast", because thier poor business model is totally dependent on free traffic from Google and their 2 year old 'authority' site with 272 back links has dropped from the top 0.0000000083% of sites in their 12 mil result niche to the top 0.0000000225% putting them on page 27, and they can no longer afford to feed their family, and will have to sell the kids to live, and it is all Google's fault, because there is no way out of the 8+ bil pages indexed there are 270 that are more relevent than theirs, and even if there are they deserve to be on page 1 because they have been.

Everything else is just everfulx.

Justin

Forgot (Ginger)

stinkfoot

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 8:07 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

oooooohh now then ... we do have issues dont we :P

Dayo_UK

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 8:11 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>Thoughts?

Google cant fix the Canonical url problem. Until fixed = no update (IMO)

yump

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 8:17 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

On the UK search have just searched for a very common kitchen appliance using the keywords and got 2 results on the first page from a holiday site where the appliance was mentioned a couple of times in the text, as it is present in the self-catering rooms.

Get similar joke results with other keywords. Except its no joke.

If they keep changing all the time, eventually every surfer will experience rubbish results and then the whole thing will degrade.

Our authority pages on 'widgets' with good content which used to be close to top are now on page 5 and a list of affiliate links with no content from a directory is no.1.

Ridiculous. Well they say they want feedback so I've sent it for every search I do which has joke results. It used to work (relatively) well.

reseller

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 8:48 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Ok.

It seems that our good friend at the plex, Matt Cutts wish to contribute to this thread about his understanding of "What’s an update?"

http://www.mattcutts.com [mattcutts.com]

Why do I have this strange feeling that it was Matt whom we were exchanging posts with on this thread this morning ;-)

jd01

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 8:57 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

oooooohh now then ... we do have issues dont we :P

Just having some fun, and wish people would inject some form of reason when dealing with the hair splittingly small numbers surrounding top rankings...

Justin

BTW Those % are real - how much algorythmic change does it take to move from one to the other? I'll go back to just reading now, and let people get back on topic =)

Rugles

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 8:59 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>>Why do I have this strange feeling that it was Matt whom we were exchanging posts with on this thread this morning ;-)

Many have suspected that for a long time. But GG and Brett have never revealed it here, as far as I know.

Nikke

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 9:08 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

And I'm still watching the very different results seen at
216.239.59.104 and
72.14.207.104
thinking that even if the only non-performing site I do, just jumped almost 30 positions today, it could have been much, much better.

When I see the results I see at those two datacenters in the main index, then it will be an update... maybe...

nsqlg

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 9:14 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

then it will be an update

Two employees of G had said that not is going an update... so...no way.

g1smd

WebmasterWorld Senior Member g1smd us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 9:40 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

not an update ..... yet

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 9:48 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Not that anyone will listen to Matt, but what he wrote si the only update to speak of these days.

Backlinks... they just change, they don't update.

PR... updates, but the effect is a month or more old, so it isn't something to pay attention to in a "changing"/update way.

Directory... it clearly updates, but doesn't impact anything else, so that is just a "directory update".

Serps changes... should never be called an "update". Serps changes multiple times a day. Today I rank in three different spots for the main thing I care about. I bounce around all the time, as do all the results I pay attention to. Serps are in a constant state of everflux. When they are NOT, now that is notable.

Algo updates... this is when Google updates what it is *doing*. Driving your car in different directions is not updating. Getting a new car is updating.

From what I can see, we have more than average everflux due to introduction of a lot of new URLs (some are pages and sites, some are phantom URLs). This recently has been a pre-update phenomenon. PR should update next month. Perhaps there will be an algo update in a couple weeks, maybe it will be longer. Till then, everflux goes on.

Tropical Island

WebmasterWorld Senior Member tropical_island us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 10:10 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

not an update ..... yet

Over the last couple of years there has been a Google "Christmas impact" algo update so keep your eyes open :-)

stinkfoot

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 10:12 pm on Sep 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

lol oh please .. dont .. you know there is no sanity clause .. especially in this game

Rick_M

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 12:18 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

I haven't read all posts, but I did see Googleguy said there is no algo update, and Matt Cutts said in his weblog that Gilligan has only been the backlinks and pagerank data becoming visible.

So, I had a site that was gone from Google for about 8 months, came back about 1 month ago. Was back for many of my original well ranking terms, many on the first page. My site covers 4 main topic areas, all fairly distinct. Today, 1 of those topic areas has dropped about 40 spots for ALL terms in that topic. However, the rest of the site has remained exactly where it had been. VERY bizarre if you ask me, but also concerning me a lot, as it could just be a matter of time before the other 3 topic areas suffer a similar fate.

I'm also trying to figure out where this fits in without there being any algo changes. Maybe this is part of my site getting back into the index after being out for 8 months and is an anomoly.

Has anyone else who's been pretty steady for a while noticed a large drop today - beyond the usual everflux changes you've seen?

Finally, I need to try to figure out why I was penalized in the one target area. Only thing I can think of is that perhaps that topic area looked like a set of doorway pages as I have many similarly formatted pages with different data in the tables for different subtopics, but the tables themselves are formatted similarly.

As usual, I'm just going to have to wait and see where this settles for my site, and keep developing the content. What else can ya do?

stinkfoot

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 12:43 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

yes ... a site number 1 for 3 phraze competative and number 2 or 3 for other 3 word ... 2nd page for major 2 word keyprases .. now lost to page 5 position 50

modemmike

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 12:44 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

Has anybody else noticed two of the DC's are acting really funny... timing out, server errors and what not... probably nothing but found it odd.

[66.249.87.99...]
[66.249.87.104...]

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 1:00 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

It is time we asked the question, then what is an update?

Maybe it's an update when GoogleGuy says it's an update?

joeduck

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 1:33 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

It is time we asked the question, then what is an update?

Also interesting is the nihilistic version: "When is an update not an update, Gilligan?"

... Algorithm and SERP walk into a Las Vegas Bar.
SERP says "Algo, is that an update in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 2:25 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

I can see Alan Hale Jr. doing his Oliver Hardy impersonation... slapping his hat against the guy down at the Gilliganplex(TM) who accidentally hit the red button for a second.

jomaxx

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jomaxx us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 5:24 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

... Gilligan runs off in speeded up motion, accidentally knocking over the Professor's coconut-and-bamboo server farm.

reseller

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 5:39 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

Good morning Folks

I have read what Matt wrote several times, in an attempt to "decode" few terms ;-)

Here is some food for the thought:

"The term “everflux” is often used to describe the constant state of low-level changes as we crawl the web and rankings consequently change to a minor degree. That’s normal, and that’s not an update."

I wish Matt or our good friend GoogleGuy tells us more about how they understand state of low-level changes

What have been reported here on this thread and few other threads can´t be described as state of low-level changes ,IMHO. Take a look and judge for yourself:

- new serps
- new backlinks
- new numbers of results
- new pr
- fresh filters applied

Matt proceed on his blog:

"Usually, what registers with an update to the webmaster community is when we update an algorithm (or its data), change our scoring algorithms, or switch over to a new piece of infrastructure."

IMHO, the most important question isn´t the technicality, but the impact an "update" or "everflux" has on the serps and ranking or dropping of our sites..

And it seems that both "everflux" and an "update" has almost the same impact!

Because of the importance of this subject, pls allow me to recall one of my previous posts, and another GoogleGuy´s evergreen reply which might be relevant to our current discussion:

[webmasterworld.com...]

--------------------------------------------------

reseller
Preferred Member

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joined:Feb 6, 2005
posts:384
msg #:562 5:57 am on June 2, 2005 (utc 0)

googleguy

There has been several interpretations to this line of yours:

- Then there will still be some minor changes after that as well.

I myself wish to ask whether that means that the serps shall be "everchanging" or what I call "The Rotating Algos" ;-) as in the case after allegra update.

Would you be kind to elaborate more?

Thanks
==============================================

GoogleGuy
Senior Member

view member profile
joined-Oct 8, 2001
posts:2827
msg #:565 6:18 am on June 2, 2005 (utc 0)

reseller, currently, a few data centers have some different data that should be everywhere in a few days. I'll keep people posted on the status of things, and collect feedback closer to the end after things are settling down more. I'd expect that things will be back to their normal level of everflux by New Orleans. But we do have incremental indexing after all, so it's normal to expect a certain amount of change to the index every day or so (aka everflux).

In fact, everflux is a pretty good analogy. If you go back to summer 2003, update Fritz was the beginning of the transition from a monthly update to an incremental index. It caused a lot of comments, because plenty of people were happy with an index that only changed once a month. A lot of the thickness in my hide started with Fritz during summer two years ago. :) Summer in the northern hemisphere is often a good time for a search engines to work on revamping different parts of our system and improving our quality; typically search engine traffic is lower in the summer due to seasonality. So the summer is a good time to think about things like bringing in new signals of quality and ways to rank pages, plus doing things like reorganizing our webmaster pages, etc. etc.
-----------------------------------

Thoughts?

zafile



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 6:15 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

GoogleGuy is pretty clear in his statement:

"If you've got a directory full of doorway pages that do JavaScript redirects, I'd highly recommend removing that immediately. We've been improving our ability to find pages like that, and it's much better to remove it before we take action on it."

It's nice PR from Google to give a final chance to those who are still wearing black hats.

I'm looking forward to see cleaner SERPs in the near future.

There's a nice Spanish say: "En guerra avisada, no mueren soldados".

willybfriendly

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 6:24 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

It is time we asked the question, then what is an update?

It seems to me that defining "update" is very much in the eyes of the beholder. While G may want to define it as rolling out a new algo, or some other play on semantics, if someone with the experience and breadth of knowledge that Brett has wants to call it an update, I am willing to accept it is an update.

In the days of the dance I don't believe that it was always a new algo that defined an update. It was a significant change in SERPs and backlinks.

In the era of adversarial information retrieval there must be some advantage in obfuscation of the obvious.

WBF

johnhh

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 9:34 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

>> what is an update?

Surely an update is when the results of a search visible to a user ( remember them? - the potential visitor/customer ) is not the same as the last time they looked.

So the poor user who really "knows" that great web site is on page 2 of Google suddenly cannot find it anymore.

For this reason stability is important - and Google may be kicking themself in the teeth by creating everflux.

Stability is also important for those luckily enough to be highly listed in Google as it on this basis that plans and developments are made - making good web sites great.

Everyone expects adverts to change - as per any publication - but the main search results are those on which Google has created its reputation and consequently current size.

Googles problem is ensuring new user-worthy sites are shown, eliminating scrapers, site copies via affiliates using frames etc etc, our problem is trying to ensure that we don't get caught in the net and changing to suit. Hence - presumably - this topic.

Whether you like it or not Google traffic is important - and cross search engine optimisation will become more difficult in the future, I predict, as the the others try to carve out their own "personality".

Unless you have a mega-dollar budget for offline advertising and brand development I guess that is they way it will stay.

Opps sounds like an MBA course!

pescatore

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 10:00 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

Update or not what I know is that a competitor in my industry went from page 1 position 4 to page 5 position 48.
(not to mention that out of his 300 pages of his particular site the 200 are links exchange pages that he has all over his network of sites -pages -some of them PR5! and only 100 pages of content the rest just link farms,that i guess rings a bell or not?)

zafile



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 10:00 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

For many months, I've been watching carefully the SERPs for a highly competitive niche in my country.

I haven't seen any major changes in the top 20 results during all this time.

GoogleGuy's news of an upcoming shakeup in rankings are quite encouraging.

Marval

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 10:05 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

johnhh - I dont think everflux will be a problem with the surfers - as its been around for a few years without any loss in surfers to Google - this is not a new thing. It actually works to the WMs favor for new pages/sites brought out as it allows your new stuff to show up right away instead of waiting for the "update" like we had to do two years ago.

pescatore

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 10:50 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

"stability is important"
yes it is because when i put -google data centers- I go to mcdar
and if i put -link popularity -i go to marketleap and if i put www i go to Yahoo and if i put webmaster i go (by the way brett...why not #1 instead of #3? at ww.
That is stability.

johnhh

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 31072 posted 11:12 am on Sep 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

Marval - interesting comment - but our feedback is that users find it perplexing - experienced users know to hit the favourites or lose it.

Surely Google users will increase in absolute numbers as the number of surfers increase - given the same market share.

Perhaps I should have phrased it as "significant stability" - as new sites - some of whom are great - obviously should be shown high if worthwhile to the user - but I would think the number of those is a very small % of new sites added in a year.

Weeding out the ones that are no real advantage to the user is very difficult to do with an automated system so hence "everflux" I presume.

However I could also argue against myself on the basis that each user has different requirements even for the same search phrase.

I just wish that the updates were sometimes not so drastic.

I would be interested to learn if those here that undertake SEO for a living take on competitive sites -and how it is dealt with - another thread that though.

Cannot seem to spel today so apologise for any errors.

Off to do some work...

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