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Does Google Ban or Filter Web Directories?
moftary

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 1:06 pm on Jul 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

I think the subject worth a thread itself. It's a suspision so far. Yet I don't see dmoz, yahoo nor any major web directory were banned/filter nor PRed zero as my web directory did. I tried to check it in Alexa (powered by google) and I see some results from my site. Appearently, Alexa brings old results from Google but something weird is that Alexa itself has PR0 now. But that's another story!

If you run a web directory, feel free to post your experience here.

 

zoltan

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 10:21 pm on Jul 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

We also had about 110-120 thousand indexed pages on google, however they were not static. Mainly member submitted information.

andrea99



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 10:24 pm on Jul 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

my site is ~400 static .htm pages and about 50 ssi .shtm. Indexed by Google since mid 2002. I was seeing heavy traffic from G since Feb 3.

alwaysthinking

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 10:28 pm on Jul 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

dataguy: It doesn't appear that the number of pages that were formerly indexed by Google had any discernable factor in Google's decision to delete our web sites. I thought I was pretty industrious with several thousand pages indexed (perhaps 4000 max on one site - perhaps 40 pages on the other domain).

So it would seem that Google was the "equal opportunity terminator" when it comes to the size of a web site. Small, medium, or larger... no matter - Google will ROCK your world just because they can...

OHHH my.... what ever happened to the utopian corporate motto of "do no evil?"

"Follow the money" and it seems to advantage the scraper sites now.

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 10:52 pm on Jul 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

Just took a look at a dozen or so niche directories that I have worked on in the past with the toolbar fired up. Seems none of them lost their PR. These are all hand edited and are not reciprocal link directories, scraped/copied content, ODP seeded using same title/descriptions, etc. Some of them charge for listings and some do not.

I would say that if you have a hand-edited (human reviewed) with any kind of guidelines for title/description etc. you are not affected. May very well be those caught up in "what is being described as a penalty" may have to look at their linking strategy, how they seeded their directory, or how spammy looking their titles/descriptions or other content are.

JuniorOptimizer

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 11:07 pm on Jul 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

This is utterly ridiculous. Being executed with no trial.

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 11:23 pm on Jul 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

Ok, so those that feel like they were executed – could you answer the following to see what they had in common?

1. Dynamic or static pages?
2. How long were they online?
3. How many pages?
4. How were they originally seeded?
5. Were they free inclusion or paid listings?
6. Were they reciprocal link directories?
7. Template based – what changed in your template besides <title> tags and listings when going through the categories?
8. How many listings per page?
9. Was there other content besides the directory listings?
10. Did you offer/use ROS links?
11. What was the PR before they seem to have been penalized?
12. If you used an off-the-shelf script did you change the default paths etc?

DaveAtIFG

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 11:25 pm on Jul 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

I think The Contractor has nailed it. Of the directories I follow, those requiring a reciprocal link have been spanked. Free or paid directories are unaffected.

dataguy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 11:27 pm on Jul 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

These are all hand edited and are not reciprocal link directories, scraped/copied content, ODP seeded using same title/descriptions, etc.

My directory is not a recip link directory, nor does it have any relation to the ODP. It is a "add by request only" directory, totally free (monetized through AdSense).

It does get its initial listing by crawling the URL after the owner has requested it, using the title and meta-description or body text, but then the owners usually come back and edit their listings to say exactly what they want it to say. I would think that this would make it hard to be confused as a scraper site.

JuniorOptimizer

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 11:41 pm on Jul 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

They killed 2 subdomains. The www was a search engine using FindWhat results. No adsense. It had around 20,000 pages indexed since 1/2004.

The second was a recip directory. 400 pages, all rewritten as static. No Adsense, just static link pages. Nowhere in the Google guidelines are reciprocal links outlawed.

There were no sitewide links or anything funny. Effectively they killed the whole domain.

alwaysthinking

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 12:09 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

I do have in one section of my site, one of those Open Directory clone scripts. It was an add-on to help those who didn't find the information in my Hand-edited Directory, which I began compiling & publishing in 1997 on my former employer's web site on my own time & effort to help promote the entire industry - including all of our competitors.

If that's the problem I would gladly delete it as hardly anyone looks at it anyway, and even fewer people click on any AdSense ads displayed in the Open Directory section of my site.

Well, at first there was only a couple of direct competitors, because if we were not the first & creator of our market niche, we were surely one of the originals and the ONLY one providing FREE links to any other competitor that I learned about - mostly from checking my visitor logs and discovering a new competitor "spying" because my Directory was initially the ONLY source for such information as mainstream media would NOT even print the term in their publications, let alone write an in-depth article.

Back then, NOBODY wanted "this stuff"... so I was left to promote the entire industry (which initially was just us) for FREE in the face of stiff opposition from the "traditional players" in the field. You know, the companies that many of us must write a check to monthly for their over-priced, sub-par service (generally speaking, but competition is making them become more honest and provide better quality). Now even some of them utilize "this stuff" that they always hated (and probably still do but it reached critical mass and would have ran them over if they did not adopt).

After a couple of years past by, a couple of other directories popped-up. One which started up in January of 2001 (almost a full 4 years since I began my "list"), went on to become the "de facto" online industry magazine after LITERALLY copying my entire list (it was much smaller back then) and used it to "seed" his site with MY content. I didn't mind too much at the time as I thought it was just an avid enthusiast's web site - the exact position I find myself in now since I was laid off back in 2002.

Since that time I have continuously updated my information on one of my client's web site, which has kind of turned into an information portal, for a lack of a better description. I still by far have the most comprehensive directory in the industry, and most everyone involved in the industry, as well as many others, referenced my directory often to keep abreast of industry growth and adjust their plans accordingly. Needless to say, competitors of the industry also make use of it.

I still work 12+ hours a day, seven days a week to operate the directory, providing FREE links to all the companies for consumers to easily find (until completely deleted by Google) in one, UNBIASED directory. It had been costing me time, effort and money to operate my "public service directory" up until I ran out of money after being unemployed for over 2 year, and finally gave in to the lure of Google AdSense to avoid becoming Homeless.

After building up earning to a very respectable monthly income, I now might as well be stating all over again... except now I have to worry about being penalized for trying to promote information that has been deleted.

All the while I see the spammy scraper sites make it difficult to find the information that I have provided and will continue to provide for free for all to use, IF you can find it!

So the question is, did the Open Directory script cause my site to get deleted, and will removing it remedy the situation?

Mind you, the other web site did not have ANY type of directory involved, yet its small business 40 odd pages were completely deleted from Google also.

martinibuster

WebmasterWorld Administrator martinibuster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 12:15 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

Folks, the site in my profile had the gray bar removed within a week and got it's pr back. The directory that simultaneously was gray-barred continues to be banned from Google's index.

1. Dynamic or static pages?
SE Friendly PHP pages. Fully indexed

2. How long were they online?
Six months
3. How many pages?
Around 200 pages

4. How were they originally seeded?
By hand, by me.

5. Were they free inclusion or paid listings?
Free. I took submissions, but the majority of the listings were put in by me, many of them by wandering around the neighborhoods and writing down business names.

6. Were they reciprocal link directories?
Nope.

7. Template based – what changed in your template besides <title> tags and listings when going through the categories?
I changed part of the feel, added banner to an affiliate site

8. How many listings per page?
four to eight listings

9. Was there other content besides the directory listings?
Nope. I hand wrote all the titles and descriptions

10. Did you offer/use ROS links?
I offered nothing to no one. It was purely a labor of love done by me over the period of several months. I was in no rush to turn a buck with it.

11. What was the PR before they seem to have been penalized?
Pr 5

12. If you used an off-the-shelf script did you change the default paths etc?
Yes, totally changed the paths, as my directory was a general directory.

I exchanged links with three or five relevant sites. The vast majority of links are all outbound with no reciprocals.

This directory was keyword heavy, as it was in a niche. I can imagine someone looking at the first page and thinking it was spammy because it has a lot of keywords on the home page, like
widgets blue
widgets green
widgets purple
etc.

Which is why I'm fairly certain it was a hand ban. It's on it's own ip, so it's not like the bots made a mistake indexing the site, either.

It was ranking like crazy for five days then the lights went out. I'm inclined to believe that in my case, it had something to do with the google.eval knuckleheads.

Hey, that's life. Weird things happen. I'm not whining about it. I have never whined about it, and I'm still not whining about it. This happened several months ago, and I'm just now mentioning it as an example of a directory that got slapped with what to me appears as a hand ban.

shri

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 12:28 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

MB, The only obvious difference I can see is phone numbers.

We've made an effort to list phone numbers whereever possible (about 80% of the listings in my directories have #s).

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 12:57 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

The comments below are all speculation on my part.

dataguy msg#38
crawling the URL after the owner has requested it, using the title and meta-description or body text, but then the owners usually come back and edit their listings to say exactly what they want it to say.

The above could very well be your problem. Using meta info or "exactly what they want it to say" is one of the biggest downfalls to a directory imho. You have to title and describe each site consistently to your guidelines.

JuniorOptimizer msg #:39

The www was a search engine using FindWhat results.

The reason the above could be penalized is obvious

The second was a recip directory. …. Nowhere in the Google guidelines are reciprocal links outlawed.

What makes the above different than a link farm? Having a reciprocal directory is a failing model long term imho. You need to read between the lines …

alwaysthinking msg #:40

I do have in one section of my site, one of those Open Directory clone scripts.

then
Mind you, the other web site did not have ANY type of directory involved..

Googleguy just mentioned somewhere they were going to take a look at scrapers and re-used ODP content. How many links did you have going to the 2nd site from the 1st? Did the 2nd site have many links from other places (non-recips)? Did they share some common backlinks obtained from the same places?

martinibuster msg #:41

Well, without seeing yours and knowing you a bit I can't say much. The thing I stay away from is using one template throughout all categories and having only the listings and title tag change. I also believe in having subject oriented content in most cases to back up the directory topics. Also, I have found in many cases concerning keyword density that "less is more". If going after a two word phrase it is often better to not group that phrase together too much ;)

dataguy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 1:16 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'm a member of the Independent Search Engine & Directory Network which has about 45 member sites.

It looks like about a fourth of those sites have been hit. They are nearly all custom-coded and general topic and some have been around for many years, but I don't see anything else in common.

What would be interesting is if I had a list of known scraper sites to check to see what percentage of them have been de-indexed.

moftary

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 1:22 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

I have this redirect (non www to www) since the beginning of my website. Don't think this is the problem.

I didn't had redirection not now nor ever and I am the first victim.

I would say that if you have a hand-edited (human reviewed) with any kind of guidelines for title/description etc. you are not affected.

No, my directory is a profissional one, human reviewed, with guidlines, etc..

The Contractor survey

1. Dynamic or static pages? static
2. How long were they online? 2 years
3. How many pages? 330.000 indexed by google
4. How were they originally seeded? ODP
5. Were they free inclusion or paid listings? paid (for review, does not guarantee submission)
6. Were they reciprocal link directories? no
7. Template based – what changed in your template besides <title> tags and listings when going through the categories? nothing
8. How many listings per page? 10~200
9. Was there other content besides the directory listings? yes, also all subdomains were hit
10. Did you offer/use ROS links? three (if i do get ROS right)
11. What was the PR before they seem to have been penalized? PR7
12. If you used an off-the-shelf script did you change the default paths etc? no

The www was a search engine using FindWhat results.
The reason the above could be penalized is obvious

No, this is not scraping. This is how meta-searching engine works.
I have my own meta-searching engine and it was not affected.

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 1:30 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

No, this is not scraping. This is how meta-searching engine works.

A directory is not a search engine.... What is your definition of a scraper site? A real meta search engine will not be crawled by Google...

No, my directory is a profissional one, human reviewed, with guidlines, etc..

If English is your 1st language and your directory is in English - I do hope your spelling is more accurate then what I have quoted above. I hope you do not take the above in the wrong way ;)

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 1:32 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'm a member of the Independent Search Engine & Directory Network which has about 45 member sites.

Do you share a lot of common properties such as listings, interlinking, and backlinks? Especially of those that were hit.

moftary

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 1:42 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

Ok, here are my thought after a few xanax pills and a cup of coffee..

Facts:

- I run a large popular web directory that was hit.

- I run other five small web directories that are powered by feeds from the large web directory.

- All the small directories have PR5.

- Only one of the small directories was hit.

- I thought it is a matter of time for having the other four small directories booted, but nothing.

- Googlebot stopped visiting the two victims since the drop.

- Pages of the two dropped directories remains in google internal database. They are cached, can be viewed via cache:www.domain.com and searching for unique terms in them returns their exact number of cached pages, but just not showing them in serps.

- The only semilarity between the two filtered directories is having the term "directory" in meta tags.

Conclusions:

Google filter/ban any site that have the term "directory" in meta tags. However, and assuming this is the correct assumption, we cannot just get rid of them and wait for our pages to appear again in serps, because simply Googlebot has stopped spidering/indexing them.

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 1:46 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

Google filter/ban any site that have the term "directory" in meta tags.

Nope, can promise you that's not the deciding factor. Do a search for allintitle:directory

dataguy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 1:57 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)


I'm a member of the Independent Search Engine & Directory Network which has about 45 member sites.


Do you share a lot of common properties such as listings, interlinking, and backlinks? Especially of those that were hit.

We don't really share anything, each of us barely knows that the others exist. Since only a fourth of the sites were affected, I'm sure the association has nothing to do with it.

alwaysthinking

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 2:01 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

The Contractor - yes I remember seeing GoogleGuys comments to the effect they were going to be looking at scrapers & ODP clones...

Which is fine, it will take me just a couple of seconds to delete the ODP script - I didn't like promoting THEM anyways as they have turned into a self-serving clique guarding their own & their cronies interests, rather than helping to promote quality content - be it new or old. I have not noticed a new site added in my particular sector of interest for years, and ODP has many links still listed for companies that went bust over 5 years ago...

HOWEVER... my site that was designed specifically for Yahoo MSN and does have minimal web presence in Google, STILL is in Google... and perhaps is doing a tad bit better - an interesting development that I will have to keep an eye on.

But I digress... Back on topic... The site without the ODP script or any other directory only has ONE link on a "our business associates" page. Hardly anything that I would think should red flag it for complete deletion by Google.

No, I think Google is busy exercising a new agenda in response to the highly anticipated implementation of Yahoo's contextual ad program, and bring up the rear again... MSN's copycat ad program. Of course some will argue that Overture was the originator of contextual ads... just something else to mull over while grasping at straw trying to pull a solution out of my hat for a problem that I can't discern because of Google lack of operational clarity.

Just calling it the way it is... I've never been one to sugar coat things for PC-ness,

The first company that has an open door police about their advertising polices will be the winner IMHO. This guessing game ever time Google SERPs burp is for the birds, as I believe most would agree.

Final prognosis, I'm deleting the ODP script, then cleaning up the links I had to it on my human-edited pages for supplementary information to my on target primary content.

Then wait and see what happens... OR maybe even receive a definitive answer from Google (wishfully muttering to myself) from which I can take decisive corrective measures.

andrea99



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 2:06 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

Reciprocal linking cannot be the only factor. I refused all offers to exchange links and actively tried to avoid unintentional trades because I believed this would eventually be penalized.

moftary

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 2:24 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

If English is your 1st language and your directory is in English - I do hope your spelling is more accurate "then" what I have quoted above. I hope you do not take the above in the wrong way ;)

"then"? you mean "than" I recon. And no, English is not my 1st nor 2nd language, and still I can write/speak it. What about you, do you know Arabic?

Let's not turn this thread into a childish flame war please.

A directory is not a search engine.... What is your definition of a scraper site?

I dont have a definition for a scraper site actually, and I dont care to have one :)

A real meta search engine will not be crawled by Google...

Search [ "dogpile.com" site:dogpile.com ] in google and you would know. Don't bother if you dont consider dogpile a real meta searching engine.

tell you what? let's not get off topic please.

moftary

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 2:31 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

Nope, can promise you that's not the deciding factor. Do a search for allintitle:directory

I assumed google had an exclusion list against this filter, but after seeing the results it appears that is wrong conclusion.

alwaysthinking

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 2:32 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

The only thing that the two sites that Google completely deletd last night/early mourning, other than a text link between each other, is that both have a FREE 3rd party visitor tracking script embedded in each page, along with the fee-base tracking solution I use. The FREE tracking system is noticable as it indicates how many people are currently on site, updated on each new page view...

I read that Google has acquired Urchin Software Corp. software company whose technology "could help improve its AdSense and Blogger services." Perhaps Google is planning on implementing their own visitor stats program for the use on publisher's web site, and are eliminating out of hand any site that uses competing technolgy which they have targeted for elimination...

Now this would be a reason I could certainly understand. But if it is so, why not give publishers a "heads-up" and allow them the option of removing the "offending" script and applying their visitor tracking solution, once (if) available?

Just more brain drain on my part... this is utterly discouraging without constructive feedback

Yahoo Reps... It is certain that you study comments on this thread thoroughly... That is what good competitors do... search for their competitor's weaknesses. Make note of this short-coming to take advantage of... and don't forget to contact me when you start-up your new ad program... I imagine that you can figure out who I am from my discussions on this thread.

THANK YOU in advance!

moftary

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 2:39 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

I read that Google has acquired Urchin Software Corp. software company whose technology "could help improve its AdSense and Blogger services." Perhaps Google is planning on implementing their own visitor stats program for the use on publisher's web site, and are eliminating out of hand any site that uses competing technolgy which they have targeted for elimination

Consipiracy theory.
First of all, I for one dont have a tracking script on my two banned sites. Secondly, google would lose thousands from me alone for banning my site that is supported by adsense. Imagine how much they will lose after this update. Someone claimed somewhere that google gives priority in their serps for sites with adsense. Google says no and proved - the hard way - that they are honest.

alwaysthinking

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 3:02 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

moftary - "Conspiracy Theory..."

PRECISELY my point... because of Google's lack of AdSense operational clarity, I, and many others must dream up "what-if" scenarios as possible causes of problems (major in this case) due to the lack of concrete communications from Google about AdSense problems... most of which are for mundane reasons I suppose. But that's it... we have to suppose what the problem might be.

Why not tell us when they make their changes so we can fix it? Because they want to catch people off-guard and wreak havoc in their partner's lives, so it would seem. It stands to reason that a truly caring business partner would go out of their way to notify their partners of police changes, and make suggestions on how to cope with the new guidelines.

However with Google one can just wake up in the morning (if they ever got to sleep the night before from working on their sites) and find that their partner completely throughout their work without any warning or explanation. Just BANG... you're History. If it happened to someone that was doing something blatantly wrong, then it would be understandable. However in my case, and now I believe also in many other cases, we're just average web sites that have been operating perfectly for years in Google SERPs, way before there even was AdSense.

While I understand that it would be virtually impossible to have complete, thorough communiqué with every publisher each time we think we may have been slighted (dang... I dropped 2 places in the rankings for such & such keywords).... by have CLEAR, concise explanations for all facets of their AdSense program complete with examples, the amount of angst, effort & frustration could be minimize.

Then when some unforeseen development which does have significant negative impact upon the program arises, Google's staff can devote more time on a critical problem solving, rather than repetitively doling out canned emails for relatively minor problems that wouldn't even need employee attention if it was covered in a more comprehensive AdSense TOS tutorial... or whatever you care to label such a tool.

Nosmada

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 4:26 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

What the heck now is wrong with reciprocal links? You are supposed to get links or you die. If you don't offer to link back then you are left out in the cold?

andrea99



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 4:37 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

What the heck now is wrong with reciprocal links?

The problem is that reciprocal linking has become too methodical and organized such that it no longer reflects actual link value or relevance the way it once did when Google began using incoming links to put a value or rank on sites.

By publishing their methods at the outset instead of just quietly producing better results they should have anticipated that it would result in a cottage industry of gaming the system.

But since my site disappeared from the index without engaging in reciprocal linking that was not the cause in my case.

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 6:10 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

By publishing their methods at the outset instead of just quietly producing better results they should have anticipated that it would result in a cottage industry of gaming the system.

The PageRank formula was published as an academic paper when Google's co-founders were Ph.D. candidates at Stanford. So it's hard to imagine how it could have been suppressed when Google became a company.

[www-db.stanford.edu...]

AlexMiles

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30575 posted 6:34 am on Jul 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

Well it hasn't happened to me, partly because I don't have a directory site I suppose, and I doubt if I have a solution, but I was thinking.

If I was an evil virtual dictator on a power trip, and I wanted to keep my subjects guessing, I'd not implement one change, I'd implement two at the same time.

When a site owner is allowed to fix up their listing in a directory, they must be quite likely to put the exact same text in any directory they list under. Could trigger a dupe penalty for a phrase or two if I'm reading the Google patent right. Perhaps too many dupe phrase penalties on one site nukes it?

It might be that anything with the word 'directory' in a meta tag is more likely to be on top of the serps when a webmaster looking for directories to submit to is, well, looking.

Hope that helps.

.

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