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Scraper Site Clearout Collateral Damage?
Ian Cunningham

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 10:18 am on Jul 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

It seems like google has purged many scraper sites from the google serps, as per this thread:

[webmasterworld.com...]

I'm sure many people, including myself are very, very pleased about this as it stops scumbag sites from stealing our content.

However, it also appears that some non-scraper sites have been included in this purge (including my own). My site has been active for 5 years and is based on unique content.

Has anyone else been effected by this, and does google intend to refine the algorithm to stop valid, unique content sites from falling victim?

 

reli

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 3:24 am on Aug 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

Not all clones are created equal. (this defies the definition of clone, tho)

This could be a work-in-progress. My DMOZ sites have not been affected. Either they will be affected, or G will pop DMOZ-fed sites back in, or other factors/issues will get noticed by us as the probable cause.

I've asked if these dropped sites are sites with 10,000 or 20,000 pages of indexable DMOZ pages, or just a script with a /cgi-bin/?odp_cat=motorcycles type of dynamic feed? Can anyone say? It might help people not over-react to the wrong symptom/cause correction.

If you created a site with thousands of DMOZ cloned pages (I lacked the tools to do it, and figured I'd not refresh it often enough)... then maybe the penalty is due to introducing a static "historical" version of DMOZ? G's own copy is static, so it doesn't seem like a logical conclusion, I know.

I'm not sure why non-DMOZ hand-edited directories would be banned. But it could be other sins, or a huge complaint-catch-up rolled out at once.

[edited by: reli at 3:29 am (utc) on Aug. 2, 2005]

sunflower12

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 3:29 am on Aug 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

">> I use a small reciprocal links directory that I have to manually manage, and it does contain it's share of unrelated links, gambling, pills, etc... but the links are subdivided into their own pages, so all related links are on their own page. I also have a few related and unrelated homepage link exchanges. I am using a page generation software "Rankingpower" but nobody, including google seems to have an answer for that.
I think you have the answers. "

I agree, you obviously know what the problem is. Personally, I think you are one of the lucky ones. You can make corrections and then submit a reinclusion request. But what is so puzzling to me is how completely clean sites can be banned. It's one thing to lose ranking in an update but to be completely banned and manually removed from their index; Sites that do none of the above. So puzzling.

Webdetective

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 3:41 am on Aug 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

I guess I should clean up my sites, delete all the "rankingpower" pages, even if they are getting traffic from MSN, before I ask Google for reinstation. I could make up some handmade replacements for the few 'RP' pages that are receiving traffic from MSN. I figure who knows? Eventually MSN might start cracking down on this stuff too.

Fortunately Google very forgiving, likely far more than Yahoo. A couple years ago, they did reinstate 3 of my sites they banned because I joined a links farm. I apologized to Google and admitted to wrongdoing, and they soon reinstated my sites. They also warned me not to particate in such programs in the future.

I would also like to send an reinstatement request to Yahoo for 2 sites they dropped in June.

Pre_Emptor

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 4:09 pm on Aug 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

how did you go about getting reinstated/who did you contact? all there are are web forms which i've used and never received a reply ever. clearly they go nowhere.

Seo1

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 4:58 pm on Aug 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

For Pre Emptor

Actually the reinclusion forms are used. Again its a case of manpower versus forms submitted.

I have received several personal letters from Google when I have written, I also get the standard form response as well. Luck if the draw perhaps....

Clint

Pre_Emptor

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 7:39 pm on Aug 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

can you direct me to the reinclusion page? I keep finding the "contact us" pages or the addurl pages...

Buddha

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 1:23 am on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

For anyone that had their site banned, did anyone have LESS than 1000 link partners (either reciprocal or not)

Andem

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 1:52 am on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Well, I had 1 reciprocal link (non-solicited) and tens of thousands of natural links built up over the years, and my site was apparantly banned from Google. Does that make sense?

sunflower12

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 2:32 am on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

"For anyone that had their site banned, did anyone have LESS than 1000 link partners (either reciprocal or not)"

I don't have any "real" link partners. But if a site submits an article I do have a link back to their site from my site. I have been looking at my site though and I have been wondering about a certain section that I have had for 4-5 years. Since my site is about one particular subject I have a resource section where I have outbound links to many societies, organizations and businesses that oversee the subject that my site is about. Maybe that is part of my problem. It's so frustrating though, because I really want my readers to come to my site and have the option of reading the articles on my site but to also be given the option of going to other sites to get more information. Plus this section took years to build up and took a lot of thought! Maybe in the end I should remove all of the outbound links. I hate doing it though, but maybe it will help?

Seo1

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 3:20 am on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

For Buddha

You wrote:
For anyone that had their site banned, did anyone have LESS than 1000 link partners (either reciprocal or not)

As far as Google is concerned the amount of links in most aspects is not the problem (Except stepping over time frames in adding them).

You could have 100 links from a link farm and be banned just as easily as if you had 10,000 links from link farms.

WebDetective Feel free to send your links you can also reach me through my site.

One thing everyone should remember is it is Google's time for a monthly crawl as well we are seeing blacked out PR indicating a PR update coming.

As far as DMOZ is considered, they have always allowed their directory to be duplicated as the originators were open source guys.

Googlebot is a very smart robot and Google uses top notch talent.

When someone finds a manipulation of the system it spreads faster than wildfire across the Internet to others who are proud they have to resort to cheating.

If you go to Nigeria and stand outside the Internet cafes you will see the lottery, western union payments, a business associate dies leaving 25mil scams decked out in the fine clothes and jewelry bragging about how many successful scams they have pulled.

Sad that foreign aid is now used against the very citizens who taxes funded such investment...anyway that's off topic...

My point is the dark side networks very well.

Seeing as google always thought highly of DMOZ other sites who used the directory correctly at one time were given credit by Google.

Google could not have seen that the Adsense ripoffs would use this benefit given by google to manipulate their adsense offerings.

It is then a matter of cleaning out the scammers, but with a grid computing environment of so many computers it takes time to purge the databases as well as the data centers and unfortunately when programming a defense into the code their maybe some casualties along the way that are innocent of any wrong doing.

Pretty much like the war in Iraq...war is never pretty and often there are innocent injuries and casualties.

The good thing is the casualties here are virtual and you can heal from them.

When Google makes changes it is often best not to panic...whats gone today can and often is ..back tomorrow

Pre-Emptor PM me for how to do the re-submission.

For andrea99

Google is not evil...they have a right to defend themselves against would be cheats and thieves...I am sure you hold that right as well and would defend against such happening to you or your company.

Google set out guidelines before they started on how to be included in their search engine.

Like many other things in life people do not read instructions, and then find fault with the company producing the product or service, when something goes wrong.

A prime example is that paper coffee cups have warning labels that the hot coffee inside them may be hot and produce injuries.

Nobody wants to accept responsibility for their actions unless it sheds them in a good light.

However Google owes nobody anything other than their shareholders a return on their investment.

Building a business involves a lot more than jumping on Googles front page results, and thinking this will make anyone a millionaire.....that is the stuff of fairy tales, and pre dot com bust companies, that are no longer with us.

Most often the problem is a misunderstanding of marketing and SEO.

The SEO work that many webmasters see is work monkeys can do, I know my teenagers could do a great deal of it if I sat them down and explained it for a few hours.

However all than an SEO and more so and SEM does is build a business.. rankings are nice but unless the keyword selection is correct you'll see no traffic or a bunch of tire kickers.

Webmasters are often better served running their business and leave marketing to those who do it as a full time occupation.

There are many hours of research and anlysis, learning profit margins, cost tolerance for customer accquisiton, budget considerations, website usability, navigation issues, design and development and more that are needed to be utilized and understood before being able to build a successful business.

Other factors not so readily discussed online and in forums one would be keywords and how often they are searched for daily, we all want to know this in order to find the best traffic drawing terms....however did you know the average user does a search for any paricular keyword term 22 times?

what does this mean to you?

Well lets say 11 of those searches were on google and 11 were done on yahoo each month by the same user.

Now using the average of 11 times per user for 1 search engine...during keyword research we find a term with 111 searches each month.

We then take this number and should divide by 11 (Multiple searches by one user? so 111/11 = 10.

10 is the actual number of users searching for the keyword term and not 111,,,so the loss of traffic here is almost 90%

To put it in easy terms

10 Average users each do 11 searches per month on average for keyword "blue smidgnes"

Total times searched on the search engine is 111 actual users is 10..

Anyway I am going way off topic ....

I hope this helps answer some questions, set straight a few disillusionment's...and if not you know where to find me.

Peace

Jane_Doe

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jane_doe us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 3:27 am on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Authors submit articles to me for free! and companies submit their press releases to me for my topic for free!

Sunflower12: Do you have any unique content (not found anywhere else online at least) that you write, or hire someone to write, on your site?

Seo1

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 3:37 am on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Jane

Do you think its a Dupe content filter applied?

I did..but strange after so long as it has worked very well in the past on client sites..so I have to go back to glitch, monthly crawl.

sunflower12

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 3:43 am on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

"Sunflower12: Do you have any unique content (not found anywhere else online at least) that you write, or hire someone to write, on your site?"

Hi,
When I first started my site years ago, I wrote articles. As the months and years went on, I built up a reputation for my topic. Experts in the field started to submit their articles to me and then companies in my field started to submit articles and press releases so I gave up writing unique content. This seemed to work for many years until last week.

walkman



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 4:05 am on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

major crawl going on one of my sites (that I checked). I predict a larger than usual update by Sunday

Rx Recruiters

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 5:58 am on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Sunflower, I too was banned from Google for no apparent reason. A glimmer of hope today - A reinclusion request I made last week was answered today - I put my first name in the text of the message, and they at least took the time to say "Dear Thomas", which hopefully means they looked at the message.

Unfortunately, it was the request I made on the day I was deleted, so my tone was more emotional than logical. They DID however say they would forward my site name and the e-mail to the Google engineers for further evaluation. A faint glimmer of hope?

You can't help but to think that they sit around and laugh at some of the e-mails they get about this. If it doesn't affect their life, and it isn't their site being targeted, it is easy not to take this seriously. I'm sure most of the ones that have been there a while are multi-millionaires now anyway, so what do they care? It is hard to believe that a few years ago Google was just an idea that two college kids had, now they seem to be "kings of the world".

Anyway, in my reinclusion request I challenged them to evaluate the site in person, and show me why, while it was worthy of number one rankings for the past 5 years, as of July 28th it wasn't good enough to be in the index. A search engine gone mad .....

sunflower12

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 8:12 am on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

"You can't help but to think that they sit around and laugh at some of the e-mails they get about this. If it doesn't affect their life, and it isn't their site being targeted, it is easy not to take this seriously. I'm sure most of the ones that have been there a while are multi-millionaires now anyway, so what do they care? It is hard to believe that a few years ago Google was just an idea that two college kids had, now they seem to be "kings of the world".

RX Recruiters,
I know who you feel. My whole life has been turned upside down. I have refunded advertisers money who had contracts with me. After all, their faith in me had a lot to do with my statistics and daily unique visitors. In good faith, I could not keep their money. For me, it is very humiliating that a site that has always been in the top ten for 5 years has now just disappeared. I feel as though I have been charged with a crime that I did not commit.

Andem

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 11:54 am on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>>For me, it is very humiliating that a site that has always been in the top ten for 5 years has now just disappeared. I feel as though I have been charged with a crime that I did not commit.

I feel the same way, sunflower. My site has become not only my site, but the daily readings of many Canadians who find the content useful. It's not only my content, as there are freelance journalists writing for the site, which I've rarely seen the articles anywhere else, as it's usually scrapers or other publications syndicating it. Most other sites syndicating it will even link back to the main site or article url.

Please note that I do not feature articles such as "10 tips for vacationing in Asia" or "How to make an online business profitable"... we're more of a "Paul Martin criticised for..." or "Air France flight crash lands in Toronto" kind of articles. How can Google really censor this type of stuff? Because it contains personal "alternative" commentary by the writers?

Like you, I also got a reply from Google about forwarding the matter to their engineers.

Seo1

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 12:47 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

For Andem & Sunflower

Hi there I have some good news for you. If your sites were banned from the index for spamming you would never receive the reply that the matter has been forwarded to their engineers.

Should be less than two weeks from when you received the letter till you are back in.

Sunflower go get your money back from those you refunded as you cannot be held responsible for a 3rd parties actions, from where I see things your site was still online and presenting the ads

Remember advertisers pay based on the average amount of eyes that could possibly view the ads. As such a billboard company does not return revenue to advertisers, because the road is closed due to construction or an accident or other such reason.

Don't forget for both of you, that even if Google hiccups,,you both should have a high bookmark rate with yor readers/visitors due to the nature of your websites.

Look in your stats from your webhost this will tell you usuallly what percentage of traffic is bookmarked / repeat visitors, if not I suggest you invest in a web analytics package.

Have a great rest of the day.

Seo1

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 12:52 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)


For RXrecruiters

Hi there.

I recently was able to get a 100,000 page canadian pharmacy put back into Googles index.

It took months and work,, some I am not sure was even needed but eliminating reasons for a dump when the site was on Googles front pages for 10K+ search terms you have to eliminate all the possible reasons step by step.

You are in a unique situation. Not knowiing your site I am inferring from your user name here that you are a recruiter for either pharmacists or pharmacy affiliate programs?

If it is the first you are apparently caught in Googles eyes looking at pharmacies outside the US.

If it's the latter you may be part of what Google is scrutinizing..

let me know

Clint

theBear

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 1:39 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Thomas,

I just took a look at your site (at least I think it is your site).

You are using relative hrefs and have both the default html subdomain and the domain answering for your server.

I'm going to do a bit more snooping, but here is what I think has happened your site has multiple copies of its pages in Googles index, because of this you are getting a timeout penalty.

The longer this goes on the worse it will become, you have a total of 195 pages in the index with 46 of them duplicated.

I haven't gone looking for what caused the split, but you in fact have a duplicate content problem that needs to be addressed.

BTW: You are not banned, you are still in the index.

Seo1

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 2:36 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Bear

Nice find... though I have no idea who Thomas is..so no idea which website ...

As well as the time out problem he would suffer Dupe Content Filter as well with Google.

Clint

dataguy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 2:37 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hi there I have some good news for you. If your sites were banned from the index for spamming you would never receive the reply that the matter has been forwarded to their engineers.

This offers some hope. I've received a personal response similar to the one Rx Recruiters described. For me, Google banned a site that had a lot of traffic, but never made a lot of money, so it is not quite so painful. The site is a search engine / directory site built with software that I've written myself and filled only with listings whose owners submitted for inclusion.

I have a few other sites that use the same software, but a different set of listings. I'm afraid that if one of my sites can get banned, the others could as well. This has made me take a hard look at my sites and has made me more committed to making them useful and unique. I'm in this for the long run, hopefully it won't take too long for Google to get this straightened out.

Seo1

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 3:11 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Dataguy

Time is the great equalizer however I will reiterate myself and a few others...do not rely on Google or amy other search engine, to build your business(es) online.

There are many ways to market your website online and off..Free and Paid.

Look for new ways and methods to conduct and market your business.

Also do a search for Jay Abraham he has a great book called Getting everything out of all you've got...excellent reading

theBear

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 3:25 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Seo1,

Thomas = Rx_Recruiters

The timeout penalty is for the duplicate content problem.

You might wish to search for how long that penalty last, there is speculation that it varies depending on how many times it gets applied per page etc ... you know keep'em in the dark, etc.. like mushrooms ;-).

IANAGEAYPANOAW (I am not a Google expert and you probably aren't one as well) this doesn't apply to GoogleGuy.

Rx Recruiters

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 3:36 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Bear, that isn't the site that was banned.Doing a site search for the site in question yields: "Sorry, no information is available for the URL #*$!x.xxxxx" Complete deletion of 400 pages for the site I am talking about.

- I have not updated the site you probably looked at in a while. As I said before, I am in pharmacy recruiting, so am just learning the "tech" stuff as I go.

You are right, pharmacy recruitment and pharmacy job boards are my areas of business.

Webdetective

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 3:49 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

If somebody has no idea why their site was removed from the Google index, but cleans up, removes suspect doorway pages, duplicate content, etc.. then could Google eventually reindex the site on it's own without having to send them a reinclusion request? What if the site that was removed is getting some hits from Googlebot? Is that a good sign? What if Googlebot is mostly re-visiting just the homepage?

Also, does Google or any other search engine have a problem with using .htaccess redirects to affiliate links? I use them a lot, because it makes updating affiliate links easy in one quick step, also it makes the site look more professional.

Example:

Redirect: /affiliatelink https://affiliatecompany.order....?php..etc...

Should I be using the rel=nofollow tag in such links?

Seo1

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 4:19 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

For Bear

I have a client who had two sites 1 a dupe of the other.

I was selected to optimizie the newer of the two and after 6 months it was still under Dupe content filter and was for saometime before I arrived.

I have a very good comparison tool which is another of his sites for a different locale that I also optimized and is sitting at the top for all three google msn & yahoo.

This site like others is built off of a template design and pages are the same, except for main content and links naming , between each site as is the hosting environment.

very little linking to make a big difference in rankings .

I would also say for the past year I've run into the problem about 10 times and all 10 times the sites were filtered out and once cleaned up able to get back in on their own.

Thomas
Yes eventually Google would find the site through new links built to it sssslllloooowwwlllyyy.

Would it reinclude without prompting ...I haven't seen it happen yet. But thats more a matter of me writing every other week when someones out and not having the patience to experiment with someone elses website nor do I think they would have the patience either to take the wait and see approach

As I said it took me almost 3 months with the last cient and that was enough of a smash to their revenues than to ask them to wait and see what google does.. would make me a canidate for the white jackets...

As far as hits from Google the client had those going on almost from a few weeks after dropping out of the index...Google seemed to hit just the index page as well.

Without seeing thewebsite,,,server stats & ftp access and so forth...it's hard to say why it is happening for your website..if your using javascript navigation it maynot be able to find the links to your other pages so it has nowhere to go and is caught in a loop and leaves.

Also do you use a robots.txt file or meta robots instruction for both robots and googlebot?

Clint

Seo1

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 4:21 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Thomas

Another issue maybe that those affiliate links are seen as broken if the pages they link to are not on your server..

However I also do not fully understand what you have done there.

theBear

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 4:26 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Seo1,

" Yes eventually Google would find the site through new links built to it sssslllloooowwwlllyyy."

Don't ever say that to anyone from the McDonalds generation or suffering from any form of ADD ;-).

Thomas,

You have mail.

Buddha

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 4:29 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

SEO1,


I wrote:
For anyone that had their site banned, did anyone have LESS than 1000 link partners (either reciprocal or not)

What I meant by 1K link partners is 1000 Outgoing Links (link partners, hand picked links, directory, whatever)
Every site in MY dataset that got banned has >1000 Outgoing Links.

As far as Google is concerned the amount of links in most aspects is not the problem (Except stepping over time frames in adding them).

You could have 100 links from a link farm and be banned just as easily as if you had 10,000 links from link farms.


I doubt links FROM a link farm could hurt you. However, if you link TO a link farm or bad neighborhood, you could be hurt.

You only control who YOU link to. So similar to a scraper, if you link TO 1000s of sites from different pages, Google could THINK you are a scraper, even though you are not. Throw in some adsense on those pages and it's even harder to distinguish.

Seo1

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 30571 posted 4:41 pm on Aug 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Buddha

Yes you are right if you are not actively participating in the link farm you cannot supposedly be banned.

Yes who you link to can also hurt you whether they provide a link back or not.

Besides the issue of who you link to ...there is another issue many miss when playing with links and that is the time factor.

Most authority sites that I researched (1995 & 1996) domain registered dates were the selection criteria and few of these sites built over 100 links per year or 1000 over a decade...or for monthly break down 10 per month.

how long did it take you to build 1,000 links? (If you did.. again no clue here)

All I can say if it was a matter of less than a year and depending on your categry you may see the answer....

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