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Google Page Rank
Is PR Rank going Away?
richy blueeye




msg:747606
 12:26 am on Jul 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

I've heard from a friend that Page Rank is going away I've just started building websites within the last two months and my goal was to get a good PR, I've followed the SEO suggestions and got my site to a PR 4 with several ranking for sub pages. I reallize that I'm probably on the right track with my sites but wonder the impact this will have on google listings.

 

jbinbpt




msg:747607
 12:51 am on Jul 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hello richy_blueeye, Welcome to Webmaster World.

Is page rank dead? Yes and/or no depending on who you talk to. Did it ever really matter?

What I believe is that Page Rank number that you see served up on the Google bar was never was important as it was made out to be. The are so many differnet factors that affect actual serps, page rank was no more than a guide post.

Good, clean SEO and valid code will keep you in good standings with the search engines.

An important read here is this one.. Successful Site in 12 Months with Google Alone [webmasterworld.com]. There is always a lot of interesting topics being discussed here, so spend time browsing the forums. Don't be shy, ask questions. Lots of good community here.

jb

richy blueeye




msg:747608
 12:55 am on Jul 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

Thank you for your reply I will check out the forum.

Thanks once again,

Clint




msg:747609
 10:11 am on Jul 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

"jbinbpt", I really hate to differ, but respectfully, you just can't be saying things like that....at least not anymore ;) Maybe you've been away a while. Also, that link you gave, "Successful Site in 12 Months with Google Alone", is from 2002, and while certainly appropriate back then, and all of it is still good practice to follow, it no longer means anything about getting ranked in G (or Y or MSN for that matter). Things have dramatically changed since then and are still changing weekly, if not daily. The Bourbon update PROVED that, as well as Y's and MSN's recent "update"......

Good, clean SEO and valid code will keep you in good standings with the search engines.

That's a fallacy, especially with G. You never heard of "Bourbon"? [webmasterworld.com...]

Richy, you need to read that thread, plus there are 4 other threads on the "Bourbon" subject for G alone, thousands of pages long. MSN and Y have followed in G's footsteps by placing "blackhat" sites at the top of the SERP's, sloppy sites, irrelevant content, NO content at all, etc., etc. Unfortunately, and regrettably, you can do absolutely everything to perfection and still not only not get indexed by the big 3, but get dumped by them as well. It all boils down to LUCK as to whether G will "like you" or not.

Good luck to us all, we certainly need it.

rfgdxm1




msg:747610
 1:21 am on Jul 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

>I've heard from a friend that Page Rank is going away I've just started building websites within the last two months and my goal was to get a good PR, I've followed the SEO suggestions and got my site to a PR 4 with several ranking for sub pages. I reallize that I'm probably on the right track with my sites but wonder the impact this will have on google listings.

Ignore the little man behind the curtain. Umm...I mean ignore the Google Toolbar. My sites dropped in PR recently. They still rank well on Google. I just ignore the toolbar.

Rollo




msg:747611
 2:50 pm on Jul 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

Yes, ignore it. A PR 3 can outrank a PR 7 nowadays. I would think the numebr and quality (i.e. relevancy) of inbound links is what counts most in Google. Well, that and age. New sites still have trouble climbing to the top.

BigDave




msg:747612
 6:16 pm on Jul 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

PR is absolutley still important, just as every other aspect of your site is still important. And factors that lead to higher PR are important in other ways.

As for Brett's article, it is still as appropriate today as it was then, because it was not dealing with "tricks", instead it was dealing with "basics. The basics don't change.

reseller




msg:747613
 6:43 pm on Jul 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

Clint

>Unfortunately, and regrettably, you can do absolutely everything to perfection and still not only not get indexed by the big 3, but get dumped by them as well.<

Iīm subscribing to that ;-)

IMHO, one of the main reasons behind Allegra and Bourbon updates is to "outmaneuver" the classic SEO principles and render them less effective if being followed and used alone.

Today you need in addition to add Dynamic SEO factors too.

Wizard




msg:747614
 6:47 pm on Jul 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

A PR 3 can outrank a PR 7 nowadays.

What does it matter? If PR 0 could outrank PR 10, it would be a bit stronger proof, but still, when there are no ways to reliably check real PR, you can't judge by toolbar PR.

And PR 7 site might be sandboxed, irrelevant, or the opposite - overoptimized for certain query. There are too many factors involved, so sometimes it can happen, but it doesn't mean PR is away.

PageRank means less, perhaps, than it used to, because there are other factors with heavier weights now, but still, it's one of things important to your SERPs. There are certain queries, where SERPs order is still determined mostly by PR, for example, 'www' or 'search', so PR still has it's place in the algo.

kevinpate




msg:747615
 9:04 pm on Jul 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

While there are obviously people who had sites decimated in the changes that came about in the Bourbon update, other sites built along the lines of Brett's 12 steps, url referenced a few posts back, sailed through that storm with nary a drop splashing over the deck railing.

The update called Bourbon may have been many things, but proof the basics are no longer the basics isn't one of those things.

oddsod




msg:747616
 10:22 pm on Jul 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

Pr is vitally important for a lot of things, but maybe just not the things you may think it's important for. See my post here [webmasterworld.com].

Rollo




msg:747617
 10:36 pm on Jul 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

The basics don't change.

Yes they do, often.

There are too many factors involved

Right, therefore PR is not as important as it used to be (when it was one of a few main factors).

BTW, I'm not sure about the others, but I'm refering to toolbar PR. There is no way to even reasonably analize real PR becuase it's totally hidden to us and in a constant state of flux.

I think webmasters are best off ignoring PR and working to get good relevant lnks and writing loads good content.

reseller




msg:747618
 10:44 pm on Jul 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

kevinpate


>The update called Bourbon may have been many things, but proof the basics are no longer the basics isn't one of those things.<

Oooops!

Thats a very undocumented statement from a fellow Senior Member. Would you be kind to elaborate more on that one?

Thanks.

reseller




msg:747619
 11:07 pm on Jul 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

BigDave

>PR is absolutley still importan<

Important for what? For selling and trading links..Yes of course.

For ranking on the serps..I really doubt. Otherwise you are telling us that sites with high PR havenīt been or shouldnīt be affected by Allegra or Bourbon updates. Do you really mean that?

BigDave




msg:747620
 1:01 am on Jul 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

The basics don't change.

Yes they do, often.

Nope, they don't.

But then you go on to say:
I think webmasters are best off ignoring PR and working to get good relevant lnks and writing loads good content.

Which sure sounds like the basics to me.

mportant for what?

For getting crawled, and for ranking in the SERPs.

For ranking on the serps..I really doubt.

Why? Mind you, I don't say that it was all powerful (it never was). If you bothered to read the whole sentence, "...PR is absolutley still important, just as every other aspect of your site is still important", you might realize that.

For some oddball reason, people seem to think that just because PR does not overwhelm all other factors combined, that it is no longer used at all.

Well, if you are so willing to discount factors, you are quite welcome to the results of that decision.

Otherwise you are telling us that sites with high PR havenīt been or shouldnīt be affected by Allegra or Bourbon updates.

Where the hell did I say that? Even if PR were 80% of the ranking of a site, that site could still fall off the face of google depending on what the other 20% was. PR is an important factor, but it is still only one of the important factors.

If you have not figured out by now, just about EVERYTHING is important., including the luck of the draw.

steveb




msg:747621
 1:10 am on Jul 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

PR is absolutely still important for ranking in the SERPS. It's not the critical element for term that attract anchor text, but its the key element for deep content or longtail search marketing. You need PR to get deep content pages crawled. You need PR to rank for thousands of mutli-word queries. (And of course you need to PR in helping you to rank for those mega-one word queries.)

It seems that people want PR to be like a carburetor, a thing you can set on a table. The value of PR is clear, but not as tangible as that.

Rollo




msg:747622
 2:12 am on Jul 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

Nope, they don't.

Sorry, yes they do... what I mentioned were a couple items, I belive your statement was much broader. High PR = top of the serps used to be such a basic, but no longer. Again, I'm refering to toolbar PR.

Have you read Google's latest patent ap? Seems like the "basics" are changing to me.

To argue what's true today will be true tomorrow in any aspect of the internet, which is the most dynamic communications medium in existence, is pretty laughable on its face. No argument needed.

Kirby




msg:747623
 4:00 am on Jul 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

You need PR to rank for thousands of mutli-word queries.

Excellent example!

robotsdobetter




msg:747624
 4:26 am on Jul 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

I've heard from a friend that Page Rank is going away I've just started building websites within the last two months and my goal was to get a good PR, I've followed the SEO suggestions and got my site to a PR 4 with several ranking for sub pages. I reallize that I'm probably on the right track with my sites but wonder the impact this will have on google listings.
Page Rank is likely no less important then what once was before, the only thing is webmasters have made it out to be more important then it ever was. Page Rank is only one of several factors that Google uses to rank your web site with, so to expect because you have high Page Rank means that your web site will rank high is just foolish. It's not dead, far from it, their are just more factors into it.
BigDave




msg:747625
 5:33 am on Jul 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

Have you read Google's latest patent ap?

Why, yes I have. And the basics still apply.

Seems like the "basics" are changing to me.

Then either you don't have a very good concept of what the basics are, or you are seeing something in that patent that I don't see.

Google's goal is to return good results to their searchers. The good results are pages on good sites. The "basics" are how you go about making a good site. If you make a good site, then it is the sort of site that they *want* to have show up at the top of the SERPs.

The "basics" are not "how to beat the current algo".

reseller




msg:747626
 8:22 am on Jul 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

Folks!

Its about time to take a close look at Brettīs article which includes what some of you described as "basics".

[webmasterworld.com...]

Though the title of the article is "Successful Site in 12 Months with Google Alone, 26 steps to 15k a day", it was aiming at generating traffic from search engines in general and not from Google alone. Here is what Brett wrote:

Do those 26 things, and I guarantee you that in ones years time you will call your site a success. It will be drawing between 500 and 2000 referrals a day from search engines. If you build a good site with an average of 4 to 5 pages per user, you should be in the 10-15k page views per day range in one years time. What you do with that traffic is up to you, but that is more than enough to "do something" with.

And then lets take a look at the 26 steps and see whether they are still valid, IMHO:

A) Prep work and begin building content.

Still valid.

B) Domain name:
Easily brandable.

Still valid.

C) Site Design:
The simpler the better.

Still valid

D) Page Size:
The smaller the better. Keep it under 15k if you can.

Still valid

E) Content:
Build one page of content and put online per day at 200-500 words.

Still valid

F) Density, position, yada...
Simple old fashioned seo from the ground up.
Use the keyword once in title, once in description tag, once in a heading, once in the url, once in bold, once in italic, once high on the page, and hit the density between 5 and 20% (don't fret about it). Use good sentences and speel check it ;-) Spell checking is becoming important as se's are moving to auto correction during searches. There is no longer a reason to look like you can't spell (unless you really are phonetically challenged).

That one needs an update.

G) Outbound Links:
From every page, link to one or two high ranking sites under that particular keyword. Use your keyword in the link text (this is ultra important for the future).

That one needs an update.

H) Insite Cross links.
(cross links in this context are links WITHIN the same site)
Link to on topic quality content across your site. If a page is about food, then make sure it links it to the apples and veggies page. Specifically with Google, on topic cross linking is very important for sharing your pr value across your site. You do NOT want an "all star" page that out performs the rest of your site. You want 50 pages that produce 1 referral each a day and do NOT want 1 page that produces 50 referrals a day. If you do find one page that drastically out produces the rest of the site with Google, you need to off load some of that pr value to other pages by cross linking heavily. It's the old share the wealth thing.

That one needs an update.

I) Put it Online.
Don't go with virtual hosting - go with a stand alone ip.

Still valid.

J) Submit
Submit the root to: Google, Fast, Altavista, WiseNut, (write Teoma), DirectHit, and Hotbot. Now comes the hard part - forget about submissions for the next six months. That's right - submit and forget.

That one needs an update.

K) Logging and Tracking:
Get a quality logger/tracker that can do justice to inbound referrals based on log files (don't use a lame graphic counter - you need the real deal). If your host doesn't support referrers, then back up and get a new host. You can't run a modern site without full referrals available 24x7x365 in real time.

Still valid.

L) Spiderlings:
Watch for spiders from se's. Make sure those that are crawling the full site, can do so easily.

Still valid.

M) Topic directories.
Almost every keyword sector has an authority hub on it's topic. Go submit within the guidelines.

Still valid.

N) Links
Look around your keyword sector in Googles version of the ODP. (this is best done AFTER getting an odp listing - or two). Find sites that have links pages or freely exchange links. Simply request a swap. Put a page of on topic, in context links up your self as a collection spot.
Don't freak if you can't get people to swap links - move on. Try to swap links with one fresh site a day. A simple personal email is enough. Stay low key about it and don't worry if site Z won't link with you - they will - eventually they will.

That one needs an update.

O) Content.
One page of quality content per day.

Still valid.

P) Gimmicks.
Stay far away from any "fades of the day" or anything that appears spammy, unethical, or tricky. Plant yourself firmly on the high ground in the middle of the road.

Still valid.

Q) Link backs
When YOU receive requests for links, check the site out before linking back with them. Check them through Google and their pr value. Look for directory listings. Don't link back to junk just because they asked. Make sure it is a site similar to yours and on topic.

Still valid.

R) Rounding out the offerings:
Use options such as Email-a-friend, forums, and mailing lists to round out your sites offerings. Hit the top forums in your market and read, read, read until your eyes hurt you read so much.
Stay away from "affiliate fades" that insert content on to your site.

Still valid.

S) Beware of Flyer and Brochure Syndrome
If you have an ecom site or online version of bricks and mortar, be careful not to turn your site into a brochure. These don't work at all. Think about what people want. They aren't coming to your site to view "your content", they are coming to your site looking for "their content". Talk as little about your products and yourself as possible in articles (raise eyebrows...yes, I know).

Still valid.

T) Build one page of content per day.
Head back to the Overture suggestion tool to get ideas for fresh pages.

Still valid

U) Study those logs.

Still valid.

V) Timely Topics
Nothing breeds success like success. Stay abreast of developments in your keyword sector. If big site "Z" is coming out with product "A" at the end of the year, then build a page and have it ready in October so that search engines get it by December. eg: go look at all the Xbox and XP sites in Google right now - those are sites that were on the ball last summer.

Still valid.

W) Friends and Family
Networking is critical to the success of a site.

Still valid.

X) Notes, Notes, Notes
If you build one page per day, you will find that brain storm like inspiration will hit you in the head at some magic point. Whether it is in the shower (dry off first), driving down the road (please pull over), or just parked at your desk, write it down!

Still valid.

Y) Submission check at six months
Walk back through your submissions and see if you got listed in all the search engines you submitted to after six months. If not, then resubmit and forget again. Try those freebie directories again too.

Still valid.

Z) Build one page of quality content per day.

Still valid.

However, and as you might have noticed; item "E","O" and "Z" could be merged in one item.

Clint




msg:747627
 11:45 am on Jul 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

While there are obviously people who had sites decimated in the changes that came about in the Bourbon update, other sites built along the lines of Brett's 12 steps, url referenced a few posts back, sailed through that storm with nary a drop splashing over the deck railing.

The update called Bourbon may have been many things, but proof the basics are no longer the basics isn't one of those things.

Kevin, where ya been? ;) There's people that followed and follow those steps and still got dumped and are still getting dumped. The "basics" MIGHT be the same for other SE's but they are obviously NOT for G. Looking at the recent Y and MSN updates, the basics are not the same for them either! Should you follow them? Of course, but following them by no means insures you're immune to getting dumped or that you will hold your SERP's! Like I said: the article "is from 2002, and while certainly appropriate back then, and all of it is still good practice to follow, it no longer means anything about getting ranked in G (or Y or MSN for that matter). Things have dramatically changed since then and are still changing weekly, if not daily. The Bourbon update PROVED that, as well as Y's and MSN's recent 'update'......"

There are people that followed ALL "guidelines", not only G's guidelines but basic SEO guidelines and got trashed, and some didn't get trashed. There are many that not only didn't follow any guidelines but blatantly purposely flat-out disobeyed them, followed blackhat techniques and they ROSE in the SERP's where they still remain today!

G updates, as well as the Y and MSN updates, have proven that no one is immune and no matter what you do, you can still get dumped.

Clint




msg:747628
 12:09 pm on Jul 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

Reseller, I don't anyone is saying the steps are not VALID, (at least I'm not), what some are saying and what I've been saying is that following them can no longer guarantee anything, as is stated at the beginning of the text. They are still valid and sensible things to follow, however they are no longer a top prio for getting in to G and holding your SERP's. The only thing that following them guarantees is that you'll have a "technically sound site" which is good, but no longer has much bearing on your SERP's as the recent updates have proven.

I cannot comprehend how some are saying the "basics don't change". But, perhaps we need a new definition OF "the basics" and need to put them into proper context. The "basics" may still always be the "basics, but of course MORE has to be ADDED TO THEM, and the "basics" certainly do not mean what they once meant nor carry the weight they once carried.

BigDave




msg:747629
 5:30 pm on Jul 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

Clint,

They never did guarantee anything. Nothing is guaranteed here.

What you have to remember is that Google only wants sites that are *good enough to satisfy the searcher*. For almost any search term that gives them thousands of pages that will meet that requirement.

The basics are what get you in the ballgame. To consistantly win, you have to either have the basics down much better than anyone else in your sector, or you need to have a few tricks in addition to having very sound basics.

Not only do you need to have the basics down, you need to have them down better than the next guy.

But sites that don't have their basics down will still win an occasional game, and sites that do have them down will still lose an occasional game. But you don't consistantly win without those basics.

But just because you lost to a team that ran a couple of trick plays doesn't mean that you should spend your entire practice on double reverses, flea-flickers and long-bombs. You practice the straight ahead run and the short throwing game a hell of a lot more. Your safety has to be good at coverage, and not just blitzing and intercepting.

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