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DMOZ and PR
Dmoz PR boost
Blackguy




msg:717954
 4:33 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

I have the main page on dmoz along with 4 subdirectories under other different categories in Dmoz. What PR should i expect next time gooogle updates its PR? knowing that i have PR 4 on the main page and all subirectories are linked back to the main page.

Thank you

 

helleborine




msg:717955
 5:32 pm on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

It depends on the PR of the DMOZ pages where the links are located - and then, the way the calcuations are actually done is a mystery.

inbound




msg:717956
 6:22 pm on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

(leaving aside the fact that you should not openly tell people that you have 5 DMOZ listings - They may go down to 1 if an editor sees what you have and does not like it)

The way calculations are done is not so much of a mystery, we just have to make some assumptions based on information that has probably changed.

A link from a PR4 page could give you a PR3 if it's your only inbound and there are not too many links on the page. That's no good as a measure when you are trying to find out how much benefit it will give you on top of your existing PR.

When trying to explain PR to anyone that cares I have always used a 'PR points' analogy as such (which is simplified and ingnores dampening etc):

1. You need (your guess here) 10 times more points to get to the next level of PR than the previous one so PR1 is 10 points, PR2 is 100, PR3 is 1000 etc

2. You don't know if a page is a low or high PR? so there could be up to a ten fold difference in the benefit you get from a link from any page depending on that, hence assume a mid value for calculations, e.g. a mid PR2 has 500 points to 'give out'

3. Also take your score as a mid value unless you have a better idea of where you stand.

4. Calculate the benefit of a link from a given page and by dividing the points that page has to 'give away' by the number of links that will be on the page with your link included. eg PR2 page with 4 current links= 500/(4+1)=100 points

5. Add this to your point score, do this with all links gained and you get a rough guide as to your upcoming PR.

E.G. a site has no inbounds but gains these:

PR4 with 4+1 links = 10000/5 = 2000
PR6 with 49+1 links = 1000000/50 = 20000
PR5 with 9+1 links = 100000/10 = 10000
PR3 with 4+1 links = 1000/5 = 200

Total = 32200 points = Low/Medium PR4

The very important part of this is that to get from PR5 to 6 you will need loads of low PR links, a few high PR links may do it.

fromholland




msg:717957
 6:24 pm on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Thanks, I was looking for a clear explanation.

Wizard




msg:717958
 6:32 pm on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

More general DMOZ categories have higher PR (check with toolbar to see estimations). More links a category has, less PR will be given to your page. But being in DMOZ gives more than PR.

To see how much PR you'll get, you can play with PR simulators (search for "pagerank" on Google to find one), of course the results are completely unreliable, it's more for fun, however simulator let's understand PR basics.

The influence of DMOZ link on PR takes more time than toolbar update period, because there are plenty of DMOZ affiliate directories, and ultimately you'll get backlinks from all of them, but they update very slowly, it takes at least several months.

To give you one example, one of my DMOZ backlinks is from DMOZ category page with PR3, with 8 sites in this subcategory. My page has PR3, and without DMOZ backlink I guess it would be PR2, because it's 2nd level page in the site and most 2nd level pages in this particular site have PR2 (except pages with backlinks from other sites).

So, it this case it's perhaps one point up, but due to logarithmic nature of PR it would be less significant if the page were PR4 or higher.

silverbytes




msg:717959
 6:50 pm on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

A pertinent question: does google pay special attention to listings in dmoz after you got 1?
I mean is the same to have 4 pr5 links in other domain than having those in dmoz?

aris1970




msg:717960
 8:46 pm on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

I mean is the same to have 4 pr5 links in other domain than having those in dmoz?

From my experience, DMOZ listings are always much better than individual backlinks, assuming they have the same PageRank.

More links a category has, less PR will be given to your page.

Certainly this is not the case with DMOZ links. There are PR7 categories in DMOZ with 100+ domains and ALL of them have PR5+ minimum. I am sure DMOZ is treated specially by Google.

inbound




msg:717961
 9:36 pm on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

I doubt that DMOZ is treated differently, it's probably that the DMOZ data makes its way onto many sites so all of the sites in DMOZ end up with many links.

Also, 100 PR5s spawned off a PR7 is not unusual. I'm working on a clients' PR7 site (which has 35,000 pages - all real, not auto generated!) and have a good idea of how PR spreads, it fits roughly with the explanation above.

PR7 with 13 links >> Creates 1 PR7 + 12 PR6 pages

Those 13 pages spawn another 20 PR6 + 23 PR5 pages

From there it cascades down. All links to external sites are difficult to asses as the site generally links to PR7+ sites (it's the sector they are in, not because they are picky).

PR is predictable, the benefits of a certain PR are not though. The game has moved on from pure PR, however I'd take an on-topic, keyword-rich link from a PR7 as opposed to a PR6 or less any day.

Blackguy




msg:717962
 12:52 am on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

(leaving aside the fact that you should not openly tell people that you have 5 DMOZ listings - They may go down to 1 if an editor sees what you have and does not like it)

They wont since they are in different languages with unique content.

flicker




msg:717963
 2:02 am on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

[It's perfectly permissible for a site to have multiple ODP listings under certain conditions; a multilingual site is one of them.]

victor




msg:717964
 6:55 am on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

A pertinent question: does google pay special attention to listings in dmoz after you got 1?

The official answer must be that no one knows for sure (outside of some egghead SE tuners at Google). And if we did know, it could change tomorrow as the eggheads roll out a new algotweak.

But it seems likely that DMOZ is an established Authority site with a track record of 90+% accuracy (don't be misled by the disproportionate number of complaints from the 10-% site owners).

As such, if there is an anti-sandbox effect (some sites being given more weight by Google than you'd expect -- let's call it the sandhill) then DMOZ would be a good candidate for that.

specter




msg:717965
 7:40 am on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hi,

I would to disagree.
I've more than a site listed in ODP.
There isn't ANY appreciable difference comparison to be linked from other sites directories.
The claim that it is a sort of "esthabilished authority" hasn't any founded base.
As well as regarding PR allocation: It seems to follow the same principles that for any other link.

Maybe the only real difference is that when you're listed in DMOZ,the higher your category is in the directory hierarchy the better.

aris1970




msg:717966
 7:58 am on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

There isn't ANY appreciable difference comparison to be linked from other sites directories.

Hi specter,

By this, you mean that a listing on a PR4 DMOZ category with 50 links has the SAME VALUE with a listing on a PR4 X directory with 50 links?

Amazing theory...

victor




msg:717967
 8:31 am on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

The claim that it is a sort of "esthabilished authority" hasn't any founded base.

We may be quibbling about words here, but I'd give weight to any resource that Google calls: the most useful tool for finding information on the web

[google.co.uk...]

Of course, it is only one of the over 100 factors in establishing SERP positioning, so having a single site in which it didn't make much difference is useful anectdotal evidence, but not solid market research.

angiolo




msg:717968
 8:46 am on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

I think that DMOZ give you a boost for your text link and description on MSN and Yahoo.

A lot more than on google...

specter




msg:717969
 9:21 am on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

I assume that we're talking about the PR "benefits" that Dmoz would give,not about market researches:

I confirm that from this point of view I haven't received great benefits from the listing in ODP,not more than Any other link I got across the web.

And just to answer to Aris,Yes,I mean exactly that;
as I said ,probably, if there is a difference,it is due to the higher position in the directory hierarchy.

aris1970




msg:717970
 10:09 am on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

And just to answer to Aris,Yes,I mean exactly that;

Real Example: A website listed on a PR6 DMOZ category with 35 outbound links got a PR5 on all of its main pages... The site has 0 other backlinks!

Specter, can you confirm even one real example of having a PR6 single listing on a X directory with other 35 outbound links that gave you PR5 on ALL your main pages (this means that the home page has a high-PR5)?

DMOZ links simply rock, when compared to any other website with the same PR and the same number of outbound links. I have also found that DMOZ listing is much more powerful even from a Yahoo listing with the same PR.

specter




msg:717971
 11:29 am on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

Real example:

I have a site listed in a PR 6 category (UNIQUE LINK)that has received PR 3.

I have another site NOT listed in DMOZ but linked to a PR 4 site (unique link again ) that has received PR 3.

Is it sufficient?

Probably evaluating DMOZ "performances" you haven't considered the influence of the hierarchic position of the directory:

[dmoz.org...] with PR 4

has at Google eyes much more weight than

[dmoz.org...]

so it's very probable that if you've a site listed in "sub2" directory,it has more PR benefits than if you have it listed in "sub5" directory even if both directories have the same PR.

I don't want to say that ODP hasn't any "weight" at all:But its benefits are less than what you think.

aris1970




msg:717972
 11:37 am on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

I have a site listed in a PR 6 category (UNIQUE LINK)that has received PR 3.

I have another site NOT listed in DMOZ but linked to a PR 4 site (unique link again ) that has received PR 3.

Is it sufficient?

I am sorry but it's not sufficient. Is the PR3 website listed in DMOZ a new one or a new listing? If not, does it have any outbound links?

If your answer to both the above questions is NO, then please PM me your site and I will admit my mistake.

I bet you make wrong assumptions :)

so it's very probable that if you've a site listed in "sub2" directory,it has more PR benefits than if you have it listed in "sub5" directory even if both directories have the same PR.

Absolutely correct but this is something strictly related to the PR of the category as well. i.e. a sub4 directory may have PR6 which will STILL pass a high-PR4 or low PR5 to each website listed there.

Wizard




msg:717973
 12:17 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

It's impossible to be listed in DMOZ and have no more backlinks.

After a few months, you'll get backlinks from plenty other directories affiliated with DMOZ. And you're likely to get natural backlinks before Google toolbar update.

I'm not sure about Google giving more PR for DMOZ backlinks - PR is a mathematical formula, of course not exactly the same as in original Google Founders' documentation, but it has to follow some rules. Otherwise, it would run out of control. PR cannot be created artificially, so DMOZ category cannot give more PR than other page in the same circumstances. Such exceptions would lead to serious problems and would open ways to more PR manipulation.

SebastianX




msg:717974
 12:50 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

Don't bother with PR effects of ODP listings. Think in terms of theme/topic relevance and imagine what a smart SE can do with the ODP vote when it comes to rankings on the SERPs, any SERPs.

specter




msg:717975
 1:04 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

It's impossible to be listed in DMOZ and have no more backlinks.
After a few months, you'll get backlinks from plenty other directories affiliated with DMOZ. And you're likely to get natural backlinks before Google toolbar update.

That's correct of course.But doesn't affect my conclusions as these other backlinks would act as a further PR source increasing so my PR.
Instead,I had a PR 3 from at least a PR 6 page (just DMOZ)...
And zero outbound links.

I'm happy to see ,instead,that you're totally agree with my opinion as regard to the fact that DMOZ doesn't represent any "preferred pass" to Google.

aris1970




msg:717976
 1:23 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

It's impossible to be listed in DMOZ and have no more backlinks.

Hah, sorry for laughing but it's really surprising that people cannot understand a simple fact:

The real site(s) I refered to as examples, have NO other backlinks except a listing on DMOZ. This does not mean that DMOZ does not offer a site more backlinks due to its partner sites. This is EXACTLY one of the reasons that I disagreed with specter on his statement.

Anyway, I suggest to all my competitors (maybe not so many here) that instead of having a DMOZ listing, it is <equal> to get a listing in a PR-to-drop-ready directory... It will do the job for me! :))

PS. Specter, if possible, I am still waiting for a PM with the PR3 site you are refering to.

aris1970




msg:717977
 2:27 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

Thanks for PM specter.

As I PM you, when speaking for such low PR links (i.e. 4), the difference is quite small indeed. But if you compare a PR5 or 6 DMOZ listing with another link with the same PR from an X directory, the difference is pretty huge.

i.e. I have another website linked from a PR6 Wikipedia page with other 20 links on page and my site has gained just a PR3. If that link was from a PR6 category of DMOZ a PR5 would be very easy to take.

Anyway, good luck!

silverbytes




msg:717978
 3:55 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

It's true some time after you get some extra links for other directories using dmoz.

Does that help you at all?
I mean what is the goodness on that? Never got a click from them.
Does that help your backlinks thus higher page rank or will google consider they already counted your Dmoz link and not others?

specter




msg:717979
 5:23 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

i.e. I have another website linked from a PR6 Wikipedia page with other 20 links on page and my site has gained just a PR3. If that link was from a PR6 category of DMOZ a PR5 would be very easy to take.

Anyway this remains only your opinion,not supported by facts.

Coming ,instead,to the questions of Silverbytes,I would say that the only benefits you can have being listed across the DMOZ "network" regard the PR allocation,meaning that they counts as links,certainly not the incoming traffic,since nobody searches a web site by any directory.SEs are better and faster.

As regard the "acquired" backlinks,they have their own validity,meaning that each one of them counts as a separate link.

Regards

RichTC




msg:717980
 5:27 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

Anyone know if you can increase your PR using other methods, such as building more content?

Currently we are working like trojans building up quality content on our site and lots of it and this has been ongoing for a good while. Currently we are a PR5 site but sit with the PR6 sites in the directory.

Obviously in time we want to be a PR8 site, we have loads of sites linking to us and various directory sites but are unlikely to bag a link from a PR9 site (unless we can find one?)

Any thoughts on this?

Cheers

specter




msg:717981
 5:43 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

Increase exponentially your incoming links.Also the quantity counts for G.

RichTC




msg:717982
 5:53 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

Specter,

Listed in nearly all directory sites we can find on the net. Links in blogs, forums and put out regular news items.

We do a small amount of link exchange with on topic sites. Best links we can get are 5s and some 6s and i think one 7.

Do you have any ideas how we could increase this?

So for us to move to a PR8, we need links from PR9s? i cant see it being likely that we could secure these - if PR is its just down to incomming links?

specter




msg:717983
 6:07 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hi,

As I said,you have to increase exponentially your incoming links.
It doesn't matter their PR.

When I say to increase exponentially,I mean to get over 5,000 incoming links!From ANY site ,not only from directories.

Do you see now? ;)

Bye

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