homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 54.227.215.140
register, free tools, login, search, pro membership, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Become a Pro Member
Home / Forums Index / Google / Google SEO News and Discussion
Forum Library, Charter, Moderators: Robert Charlton & aakk9999 & brotherhood of lan & goodroi

Google SEO News and Discussion Forum

This 57 message thread spans 2 pages: < < 57 ( 1 [2]     
DMOZ and PR
Dmoz PR boost
Blackguy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 4:33 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

I have the main page on dmoz along with 4 subdirectories under other different categories in Dmoz. What PR should i expect next time gooogle updates its PR? knowing that i have PR 4 on the main page and all subirectories are linked back to the main page.

Thank you

 

silverbytes

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 6:29 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

All I know is more pages you have more chances to be found. Also heavier content sites rules over smallest.
So even when they are not so specific seems to be googles favorites when listing. It happens all the time and we particulary suffer that preference since don't have so many pages.
So even when they will get a low PR unless you get incoming links for them, it will help you in your traffic and indrectly in your rankings.

BTW how do you get good one way incoming links? I can't hardly find directories or other resources 1 way. And exchanging is so time consuming...

Wizard

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 6:35 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

So for us to move to a PR8, we need links from PR9s?

And in order to get PR10 you need a few backlinks from PR11 sites ;)))

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 6:51 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

"The real site(s) I refered to as examples, have NO other backlinks except a listing on DMOZ. This does not mean that DMOZ does not offer a site more backlinks due to its partner sites."

Huh?

specter

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 7:02 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

To reply to Siverbytes,

I don't know good one way link sites/directories and personally I don't concentrate many efforts getting/exchanging links,as I strongly believe that PR has only a small part in the ranking process.
It's the same reason for wich I'm not worried to be listed in ODP, just to stay in theme.
I had (and have) some sites top ranked with lower PR than competitors.This will mean something...

aris1970

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 8:57 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

"The real site(s) I refered to as examples, have NO other backlinks except a listing on DMOZ. This does not mean that DMOZ does not offer a site more backlinks due to its partner sites."

Huh?

Hi steveb, may I know the reason for your "detailed" comment on this? Although I am not a native-english speaker, I think it's pretty obvious what I meant...

aris1970

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 10:14 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

I don't know good one way link sites/directories and personally I don't concentrate many efforts getting/exchanging links,as I strongly believe that PR has only a small part in the ranking process.
It's the same reason for wich I'm not worried to be listed in ODP, just to stay in theme.
I had (and have) some sites top ranked with lower PR than competitors.This will mean something...

Hi specter, if you are not much interested in links and PR, can you please explain a little more how your sites get top ranked?

Regarding your lower PR site better performance, I guess you are not speaking for significant differences of PR (i.e. PR4 - PR5) when we talk about competitive terms.

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 10:54 pm on Jun 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

"I think it's pretty obvious what I meant..."

I have no idea what you meant. The statements are the exact opposite of each other.

aris1970

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 12:23 am on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

I still think the statements are very clear for anyone that reads carefully the threads.

I said that the site has just 1 listing on DMOZ and NO other backlink (i.e. from an X directory or site). So it hasn't received any other backlink from any other website that I have requested.

BUT as a subsequence of the fact that it is listed on DMOZ, it gets several other backlinks from partner sites that share the DMOZ content.

Do you still find them opposite statements? Or is it the first time you hear about getting many backlinks due to a DMOZ listing?

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 3:19 am on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Sorry, I still don't know what you are trying to say.

If you have a dmoz listing within a few days you will have more backlinks. You seem to understand that on the one hand but then say you only have one backlink. Perhaps there is an English problem or perhaps you are looking at Google's backlink command and thinking that means something, but you keep saying opposite things.

A link from dmoz means that in short order you will have hundreds of links, including one from the Google Directory that will normally have about the same PR as the dmoz link.

MikeNoLastName

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 3:52 am on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Inbound,
>> PR7 with 13 links >> Creates 1 PR7 + 12 PR6 pages
>> Those 13 pages spawn another 20 PR6 + 23 PR5 pages

So, from how I understand what you're saying, ONE of the pages linked from the PR7 becomes a PR7 itself? Is there any commonality to which one it is like the one linked uppermost in the code or...?

specter

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 6:49 am on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Just to reply to Aris,

I simply optimized texts and general page content in the part that interests the SEs.
The PR difference I refer is:

My site: 1st position for a good keyterm, with 0 PR.
A competitor web site: 2nd position for same keyterm,with PR 3.
A random taken web site in the second page of the SERP:14th position ,to be accurate,always for the same keyterm,with PR 3.

But I want to say more:A couple of site of mine benefits of the recent general PR refreshing and the PR of some of their pages has been updated from 0 to 3,but there wasn't significant position improvement,even for less competitive keywords.

You can experience this by yourself,simply.Whenever you look in the SERP you will always find cases of lower PR pages better ranked than some higher PR pages.

Better ranking doesn't mean automatically higher PR (fortunately!):you could be surprised from the PR differences among the top ranked pages,even for the more competitive terms!

Pay attention I don't mean,with this,that PR hasn't any relevance for the ranking, as already said.
But in my opinion it has less weight than you think, and it is only AN evaluating parameter,not THE evaluating parameter for Google.

Wizard

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 7:12 am on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

If you see a site with toolbar PR 0 in the top of the SERPs, or a site with no backlinks showing in "link:" search, it means nothing.

Command "link:" doesn't show anything reliable for a long time, and toolbar is updated every 3-4 months so they don't say much about the site.

A site with toolbar PR0 may have PR5 right now, and this PR will be seen in toolbar after next update, perhaps about September, when real PR of the site might already be 8.

In the opposite, these PR3 sites might have lost backlinks and their real PR is 2 or 1 right now, only toolbar shows outdated value 3.

The most reliable tool to check real link popularity of the site I know right now is to do "link:" search in Y and M, but as we all know they don't know as many links as G, it's just G makes it hard to check.

aris1970

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 7:39 am on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Sorry, I still don't know what you are trying to say.

steveb, maybe you haven't read all my previous threads. I was trying to prove the better performance of a DMOZ link in comparison to a link from any other website with the same PR.

So, I was saying that if a site (like the example I used for one of my sites) gets a link from DMOZ, this is more valuable for PR in comparison to a link from any other directory/website.

Maybe it's more clear now. Thank you.

My site: 1st position for a good keyterm, with 0 PR.
A competitor web site: 2nd position for same keyterm,with PR 3.

specter, I understand your point and agree with you. Please note though that you are constantly using examples with very low PR.

But... I bet that if I create just 1 page in my high PR6 site specially for your niche, it will rank higher than your PR0 (if it really is, which I doubt) or the PR3 site. This will happen even if the topic of my site is totally irrelevant with the topic of your niche.

Better ranking doesn't mean automatically higher PR

I fully agree. Higher PR means better ranking for sure ONLY if we compare 2 pages with exactly the same content/structure/backlinks etc.

PS. Maybe I should continue my studies to take a BA in English literature for practice :)

specter

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 8:00 am on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Dear Wizard,

I assume that all our considerations and evaluations in this thread about PR are based on Google toolbar indications,as I doubt that there is somebody that dispose of a better tool at least ,that I'm aware...

You're correct,of course,about the real PR updating BUT it's not exactly as you think:If so,than all the SERPS would be turned upside down every month!
It's not properly in this way it goes: Really there are only few movements in months,as reported by my position monitoring software trough wich I check the current status of my sites.This shows that really PR fluctuations are very moderated in the time and that a PR 0 page difficultly takes PR 5 at the first updating or,on the contrary,a PR 6 page difficultly looses all its PR,of course assuming any link lost or significant web site/page/s modifies.

So,when you find a PR 4 page in 120th position in the SERP and a PR 3 page in 4th position it's difficult to believe that in a month their order could be inverted.

Just to answer to Aris,

specter...Please note though that you are constantly using examples with very low PR.

You're correct,BUT I reported a significant PR difference ,that is the real point of the discussion.
I don't talk about PR 6 and PR 7 pages,but from 0 to 3 You must admit that the gap is very relevant even if I'm talking about relatively low PR pages.

But... I bet that if I create just 1 page in my high PR6 site specially for your niche, it will rank higher than your PR0 (if it really is, which I doubt)...

This could be,of course,BUT I please you to notice that you're talking about a difference of 6 point PR!
That shows the correctness of my "theory".You would need of 6 points PR to rank higher than my PR 0 site!

This will happen even if the topic of my site is totally irrelevant with the topic of your niche.

I would review this statement,instead.

I fully agree. Higher PR means better ranking for sure ONLY if we compare 2 pages with exactly the same content/structure/backlinks etc.

Conclusion: PR hasn't an absolute relevance for positioning in the SERP...

aris1970

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 8:32 am on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

a PR 0 page difficultly takes PR 5 at the first updating

Dear specter, if you achieve a listing on a PR5 or PR6 category of DMOZ you can have PR5 for sure after the next update :)

but from 0 to 3 You must admit that the gap is very relevant even if I'm talking about relatively low PR pages.

I agree with you, but this is exactly caused by the PR logarithmic scale! That's why I told you that you only use examples with low PRs.

<<This will happen even if the topic of my site is totally irrelevant with the topic of your niche.>>

I would review this statement,instead.

Well, I think this is the most interesting observation I have made since 2002. It is based on the fact that Google pays attention to each page, not site. So, if you create a page for "widgets" in a site that deals with "comics", if the page gains high PR and has appropriate SEO on page for "widgets", then it will perform great. I have experienced several paradigms of this behavior and I find it very strange; but is true according to my own experience.

specter

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 9:53 am on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

I think that we could continue this discussion indefinitely,as we are and we will stay on different opinions ,so I only reply some points before to conclude:

Dear specter, if you achieve a listing on a PR5 or PR6 category of DMOZ you can have PR5 for sure after the next update :)

It remains only an opinion of your.

I agree with you, but this is exactly caused by the PR logarithmic scale! That's why I told you that you only use examples with low PRs.

Yes,but I assume that in some way ,even if not so linearly,we can compare a difference between a PR0 and PR3 page to a diference between a PR5 and PR6 page.3 PR points at the lower end of the scale are worth 1 PR point at the middle-higher end of the scale,isn't it?

<<This will happen even if the topic of my site is totally irrelevant with the topic of your niche.>>

I would review this statement,instead.

Well, I think this is the most interesting observation I have made since 2002. It is based on the fact that Google pays attention to each page, not site. So, if you create a page for "widgets" in a site that deals with "comics", if the page gains high PR and has appropriate SEO on page for "widgets", then it will perform great. I have experienced several paradigms of this behavior and I find it very strange; but is true according to my own experience.

I'm sorry but there is something nonsense:

It's clear that within a site you can optimize the page as you like it:You can have a site that "deals" with "cars" but optimize some its pages for "cheese",but what does it mean?
You will be top ranked for the keyword you choose;
Your site will deal with "cars" obviously,but your pages will be completely in topics with the "cheese" niche!

I never seen a page optimized for "car" coming up in a search for "cheese" ( excluding cloaking and other spamming cases, of course) for the simple reason that a page optimized for "cheese" remains page optimized for "cheese"!

So your following statement

<<This will happen even if the topic of my site is totally irrelevant with the topic of your niche.>>

Is simply wrong.

I concluded.

Marval

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 10:22 am on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Blackguy - to answer your original question - its impossible to tell exactly what the displayed PR on the toolbar will be due to two factors - it depends on how many of the "other" directories that use DMOZs data will pick you up and in what timeframe, and secondly it depends on when Google updates its own directory which is also fed by DMOZ and you obtain the PR transfer from that as well. (assuming that you are in a category that Google pulls from DMOZ)
More importantly - remember the displayed PR on the toolbar does not reflect true page rank for a page normally and that your positioning (ranking) in the Google results are not dependant on that one factor.

inbound

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 11:00 am on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

In reply to MikeNoLastName

The PR7 page that is spawned by the PR7 homepage is a little of a mystery to be honest, it has the same amount of internal links as any other main menu page (the main menu is on all pages) and Yahoo confirms this, it also does not have other links coming in to it (as it's a feedback form).

It's also towards the end of the main menu when linearised.

Just one of those unexplained things that happen, I'm sure Google will know why but won't tell us. (it could be that the page does not have as many outbound links as the others as it's a form rather than linking to other information.

JKMitchell

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 11:20 am on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

The real site(s) I refered to as examples, have NO other backlinks except a listing on DMOZ. This does not mean that DMOZ does not offer a site more backlinks due to its partner sites. This is EXACTLY one of the reasons that I disagreed with specter on his statement.

So are you saying that you have a method of not appearing in directories that take a live feed from DMOZ? As far as I am aware these sites would have a backlink to you and all of these - no matter how small would help.

LizardGroupie

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 1:56 pm on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

If Google or any other search engine cared about providing quality results, they would give great weight to a DMOZ listing. These listings made by humans who judge only on quality and usefulness. You don't get a DMOZ listing by having a fancy site design or paying someone. Also, if Google paid more attention to DMOZ, the esteem of DMOZ would rise in the eyes of webmasters around the world.

flicker

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 3:33 pm on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Guys, I think Aris is just trying to say that he counts links from DMOZ clones as part of the benefit of being listed in the ODP. So if he has a site with an ODP link and all the related links (Google directory, etc) but nothing else, he's looking at that site and figuring that all its ranking must be coming directly or indirectly from its being listed in the ODP.

aris1970

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 3:55 pm on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Guys, I think Aris is just trying to say that he counts links from DMOZ clones as part of the benefit of being listed in the ODP. So if he has a site with an ODP link and all the related links (Google directory, etc) but nothing else, he's looking at that site and figuring that all its ranking must be coming directly or indirectly from its being listed in the ODP.

Thanks flicker! This is exactly what I meant! Finally... :)

PS. I guess I must refresh my English urgently...

Marval

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 4:41 pm on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

LizardGroupie
In my experience - Google already does give great weight to DMOZ links
I also think that in the over 5 years I have had links in DMOZ that I have always held them in great esteem - I believe that you will find that most WMs that dont either didnt read the rules (or follow them to the letter), and therefore got rejected, or they were part of a problem that some sectors had in DMOZ some time back when it was still part of the Wild wild west scenario we used to play in.

Wizard

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 6:35 pm on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

I assume that all our considerations and evaluations in this thread about PR are based on Google toolbar indications,as I doubt that there is somebody that dispose of a better tool at least ,that I'm aware...

We have no better tool, have we, but we must be always aware what tPR indicates and how little it's connected with SERPs, while real PR is more connected, but not entirely known.


You're correct,of course,about the real PR updating BUT it's not exactly as you think:If so,than all the SERPS would be turned upside down every month!

But now real PR is still updated monthly! Check this out:

[webmasterworld.com...]

In msg #5, GoogleGuy sais:


We have a bank of machines that computes PageRank continuously (and continually, I suppose; I wasn't an English major), but we only export new visible PageRanks every 3-4 months or so.

That was I believed for months and my observations have been confirming. After this GG statement, there isn't much place for dispute in this matter, is there?


So,when you find a PR 4 page in 120th position in the SERP and a PR 3 page in 4th position it's difficult to believe that in a month their order could be inverted.

My guess was that their positions will not be inveted, but that it is likely the site with PR 3 in 4th position will show PR 5 or higher.

I have a new site (from Dec 2004) that shows PR 2 in toolbar, and was #40 when it's real PR could be 2 indeed. Now the site acquired several new quality backlinks, and jumped to #5 - I'm sure after next PR update it will show PR 3 or 4.

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 7:34 pm on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

"I was trying to prove the better performance of a DMOZ link in comparison to a link from any other website with the same PR."

Fine. This should be obvious. A link from Dmoz is a link from a well regarded site, additionally it is duplicated by a similar link from the Google Directory.

"So, I was saying that if a site (like the example I used for one of my sites) gets a link from DMOZ, this is more valuable for PR in comparison to a link from any other directory/website."

Well that is false, except to the degree one dmoz link is duplicated by the Google Directory and assisted by hundreds of other links.

A dmoz link is "better" because it is from an authority site; it is not "better" for PR. PR is PR.

"Maybe it's more clear now."

Hmm, this is a different subject, but oh well...

"So are you saying that you have a method of not appearing in directories that take a live feed from DMOZ?"

I think he's saying me made a bad assertion to try and make a point, but now the point is lost in the contradictory assertion.

Getting a dmoz link is good because it is a link from a respected site; is a "double link" because of the Google Directory; has slight extra value because of the hundreds of clone links (usually with the normally helpful anchor text of your site name). There isn't any mystery here.

aris1970

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 8:39 pm on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Getting a dmoz link is good because it is a link from a respected site; is a "double link" because of the Google Directory; has slight extra value because of the hundreds of clone links (usually with the normally helpful anchor text of your site name). There isn't any mystery here.

If you read the previous posts, I was just trying to explain what <<isn't mystery here>> to specter... :)

Marcia

WebmasterWorld Senior Member marcia us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 29697 posted 9:23 pm on Jun 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

aris, I understand what you're saying, it's perfectly clear.

This 57 message thread spans 2 pages: < < 57 ( 1 [2]
Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google SEO News and Discussion
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Home ¦ Free Tools ¦ Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About ¦ Library ¦ Newsletter
WebmasterWorld is a Developer Shed Community owned by Jim Boykin.
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved