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Google Update Bourbon Part 3
Sweet Cognac




msg:711613
 8:35 pm on May 27, 2005 (gmt 0)

Continued From:

[webmasterworld.com...]



My whole site has a new cache date of May 25th. Maybe once these other sites around me get recached, I won't hold such an honorable top position. But at least Google has found my pages worthy to sit in the Search again.:) It seems strange to look at the stats and see Google in there, after 6 months of just seeing Yahoo and MSN referrals.

My website has plenty of outbound links, but they are on relevant pages. The problem my site has always had, was a lack of "inbound links." I got tired of searching for people to link to me (with all the spammy sites around) and gave up. So my pages have acquired some links naturally I guess(and I'll bet I still don't have more than 30 inbound links for the whole site) Still have a PR4, which I've had since it disappeared in Nov.

[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 8:54 pm (utc) on May 27, 2005]

 

MyWifeSays




msg:712033
 7:11 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

I've managed to spot a change in the algo which may be playing a part in some of the irrelevant results talked about here.

For 2 word search terms, pages which relate to just one of those terms but contain the other term somewhere are beating pages which relate to the two terms (ignoring all other factors).

So for example if there is a page about a film star with lots of backlinks and a high pr, then it will beat a page about another topic containing one of the terms in his name which has less backlinks and pr.

I noticed this because I have been top ranking purely on content, pr and internal links for some uncompetitive 2 word terms (term1 term2) where term1 is constant. I've kept all the positions where term2 does not really mean anything in its own right but have dropped considerably for cases where term2 has another meaning.

It looks like Google is giving more weight to the individual rankings of terms for multi-term phrases.

GoogleGuy




msg:712034
 7:27 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hey folks, I saved off the first 1200 or so posts coming back into town, and got to read the first 550 or so on the plane ride back. I was taking notes, and it made the reactions a lot more clear to me to read through everything at one time.

Does everyone remember when I took questions, and Brett set up a thread where I could post answers? I'm going to ask Brett if he can set up something similar tomorrow. I'd like to start making comments and giving advice, but I don't want the posts to get lost in the shuffle.

Here's the advice that I'd give now: take a break from checking ranks for several more days. Bourbon includes something like 3.5 improvements in search quality, and I believe that only a couple are out so far. The 0.5 will go out in a day or so, and the last major change should roll out over the next week or so. Then there will still be some minor changes after that as well. So my "weather report" along the lines of <snip> would be a recommendation that rankings may still change somewhat over the next several days.

[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 8:26 am (utc) on June 2, 2005]
[edit reason] please, no blog links...sorry. [/edit]

Scoreboard




msg:712035
 7:30 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Thank you for the heads-up, GoogleGuy. The less FUD, the better.

crobb305




msg:712036
 7:36 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

GG - Thanks for the update. :)

Chris

reseller




msg:712037
 7:39 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

GG

Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated.

Have a great day,

tictoc




msg:712038
 7:40 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Glad to hear it GoogleGuy! Google needs some shuffling!

GoogleGuy




msg:712039
 7:44 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Thought it would help. After five hours of reading posts, it got me thinking about how to write things without it getting lost on page 15 or something. It may be a bear to set that type of thread up though, so I'll defer to Brett if it would take too much database brain surgery. :)

The funniest post in the first 500 in my opinion was
My scraper site got ditched. Good job Google. Don't mind because 1) The internet is awesome and I'm glad to see it get better and 2) I would have spent income from the site on stuff I don't need that would have added to the Earth's pollution.
- guitaristinus, msg #367, first thread

I'm heading to bed, but I hope to be back here tomorrow.

Pico_Train




msg:712040
 7:45 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Thanks GG, by the way, that's what my wife calls me, stands for Gorgeous Guy...

A glimmer of hope...

max_mm




msg:712041
 7:55 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)


The funniest post in the first 500 in my opinion was

My scraper site got ditched. Good job Google. Don't mind because 1) The internet is awesome and I'm glad to see it get better and 2) I would have spent income from the site on stuff I don't need that would have added to the Earth's pollution.
- guitaristinus, msg #367, first thread

I'm heading to bed, but I hope to be back here tomorrow.

Thanks for the heads up GoogleGuy.

Question asked: What about all them white hat innocent old timers sites that got ditched together with this scraper site?

What is google going to do about the massive abnormal growth in incoming, unwanted scraper links to innocent sites and the way it is affecting their rank?

broker_boy




msg:712042
 7:59 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Google Guy,

I was meta refresh hijacked over 2 months ago by an unrelated site. Since we identified the problem (which took us from number 1 in over 100 financial phrases in uk) and had it removed we have been patiently waiting for google to come back and respider the site (it was made url only after it was hijacked).

However the first deepcrawl only took 30% of the site - it reappeared in google partially after this (on only 5 or so keywords). Our main keyword followed after it (2 or so weeks ago) but when it appeared it also lost its cashe.

When it got its cashe it lost that ranking on the main kw again (and when i say ranking i mean like 12th hardley 1st.

So we emailed you guys again and you gave me the canned email regarding spider activity etc.

So we waited for the spider again ... this time it took less of the site and those pages it did visit have lost their cashe so now i have like 10 (out of 1000+ pages) with a cashe and are not supplementary listings.

I am starting to think that the site data is so corrupted after the hijack that i simply cant get it back again. In the end of the day i like many other victims of hijacking feel very agreived by the situation. For me it is very serious after 2 months with no income my business and my house are about to be repossesed by the bank.

Like i have said in my previous emails to google (case ref #24943131) if i have done something wrong then i'll accept my punishment but this whole canolincal url problem is a harsh way to lose your income. If this only happens to people who have done something wrong (and this i dont believe) then fine you should sort out the hijacking problem asap THEN slap a penalty on them at least we can then see what is actually going on.

You see for me and many others (Dayo-uk included)Bourbon was expected to finally fix the canolinical problem with our sites. You say there is still over a week to run.... will this include a full deepcrawl of canaolised sites because i don't think my site will ever recover without a full deepcrawl but i am concerned that the hijacking has reduced my pr such that google bot decided not to go too deep (again Dayo-uk is in a similar postion).

I think many people who have put their heart and soul into very well contstructed content rich websites are suffering because of a technical glitch within google.

Please please please respond to me (or sticky i don't mind which).

Kind regards,

Broker Boy

danny




msg:712043
 8:00 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

GoogleGuy writes:
take a break from checking ranks for several more days

I had already given that up -- it was just too depressing.

But thanks for letting us know there are changes still to come, that gives me some hope.

Dayo_UK




msg:712044
 8:18 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Cool Thanks GG.

Would love a Q&A session. Bit of concrete advice on caconical urls and non-www to www redirects would be cool. (Of couse hopefully the change coming in the next few days might make that un-necessary) - but from the posts in this thread and stickies I have exchanged this seems to be a bit of a problem.

All the best

Dayo

arubicus




msg:712045
 8:19 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

We are still suffering just the same as broker_boy has mentioned. I would enjoy somewhat of an answer also!

Dayo_UK




msg:712046
 8:21 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Oops - Brokerboy posted while I was typing.

GG - I know there will be a seperate thread. But sites with the Canoical url problem seem to go url only eventually on the non-www and the www homepage (starts off that url only on non-www and then www follows (non-www takes over from www?))

I just cant see how these sites are going to come back - even with the 301 - mainly as the non-www has so few backlinks or is considered duplicate of the www.

Anyway - night night - hope you had a good holiday.

Sorry to pounce on you - good to know that things are moving - ps you wont improve your post count in G update threads - Adwordsadvisor is catching ;)

crobb305




msg:712047
 8:28 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

I have seen improvements to canonicalization as it pertains to my site:

1) The home page ranks #1 for its unique name (during the last year, it ranked somewhere higher than spot 50. Then in the past 2 weeks, it gradually migrated to the number one spot.)
2) The home page ranks #1 for ALL content phrases taken from my homepage searched in quotes. As recent as two months ago, all of that content would have been stuffed into the supplemental basket with scrapers out ranking my own content.
3) I am ranking now for obscure phrases, and getting a trickle of traffic.
4) I am getting more freuqent deep crawls (100%), and two of my internal pages have returned to full title/desc. Hoping the remainder of my url-only listings will go to full title/desc with the next update.

Bear, Dayo_UK, and Zeus you guys are familiar with my situation. Are you guys seeing anything similar? Maybe my site has just started a reputation recovery and has lived out its penalty (which started a year ago with tracker2/302 hijackings).

The site is 4 years old, and has always had unique content written myself. So, it seems reasonable that my content would rank #1, with scrapers below me. I hope that the next update will bring some more popular phrases back into the mix for me.

C

[edited by: crobb305 at 8:37 am (utc) on June 1, 2005]

Dayo_UK




msg:712048
 8:33 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

crobb305

Good news for you :)

Not really seeing anything yet - now and then I see a glimmer of hope but not much.

Fingers crossed for more improvements.

Reseller

I hope you did not play any fat lady singing records over the last few days ;)

etraffic104




msg:712049
 8:38 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hey, GoogleGuy?

You mentioned you are going to set up posts with Brett?

I'd love to read your posts. Let us know when and where!

By the way, you're not working for Google, are you? Or should I rather not ask?

Dayo_UK




msg:712050
 8:41 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

etraffic104

Yep he works for Google.

GG - Has said previously (cant find thread - prob 302 thread) that caconical urls are on the radar.

If so Google - please lock and load.

etraffic104




msg:712051
 8:52 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Dayo_UK

you mentioned Caconical URL's.

Never heard of them. You mentioned them in 704 in another thread. What are they? I probably know what they are, I just don't know the term.

crobb305




msg:712052
 8:53 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Does anyone here have enough experience with watching these types of sites recover to answer this qustion:
How long of a proccess is it from seeing your first obscure phraes ranking well, to seeing more competetive terms ranking well. I know the data are computed iteratively and so results come in fragments that build over time. I am hoping for full recovery with the next update--within the next month based on the observations I posted about #790. Is that realistic?

Mauricio




msg:712053
 8:53 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

More changes?
2 off 3.5? It means we are only seeing 60% off the fully trashed search results?
If my site has lost 95% off Google referrers, will I loose the 5%?

Maybe it was no the Bourbon update but the Murphy update: things could go worse.

Dayo_UK




msg:712054
 8:57 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

etraffic104

Probably because I keep on spelling it wrong - correct spelling is caconical!

Loads of threads about it!:-

[google.com...]

nutsandbolts




msg:712055
 8:59 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

You heard the boss, more changes to this specific update to come. No point stressing over anything until that happens. Thanks GG for the heads up. (Oh, and can you remember to press the "missing sites back in the index" button, cheers ;) )

steveb




msg:712056
 9:03 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Good news, GG. A Q&A thread would be cool... and I won't even ask if you are ready to recant that higher-PR/hijack thingee yet... :)

As for the folks ready to start burning witches, the update is still underway. Put away your torches at least until you see their finished product. Also, every major update of the past few years involved good quality "lost" sites that soon were reranked fairly properly after a short time of recrawling and re calculating of link pop. I would guess that will happen with some sites mentioned here (though definitely not all).

broker_boy




msg:712057
 9:08 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Apologies about the repost but i couldn't edit my previous post inorder to clarify the situation more fully.
................

Google Guy,

I was meta refresh hijacked over 2 months ago by an unrelated site. Since we identified the problem (which took us from number 1 in over 100 financial phrases in uk) and had the hijack removed, we have been patiently waiting for google to come back and respider the site (it was made url only after it was hijacked).

However the first deepcrawl only took 30% of the site - it reappeared in google partially after this but on only 5 or so keywords and typically in positions 21st as opposed to the 1st positions it held prior to the hijack. Our main keyword followed a week later (about 2 weeks ago) but when it reappeared the home page had lost its cashe.

When it regained its cashe last week, it lost its ranking on its main kw again - it did not even appear in the top 1,000. However,it still retains its positions in the kw's that reappeared first

So we emailed you guys again and you gave me the canned email regarding spider activity etc.

So we waited for the spider again ... this time on a partial deep crawl over last weekend, and it took only 20% of the site and those pages it did visit have now lost their cashe. So now I have 10 out of 1000+ pages with a cashe that are not supplementary listings.

I am starting to think that the site data at google is so corrupted after the hijack that I simply can't get it back again. In the end of the day I, like many other victims of hijacking, feel very aggrieved by the situation. For me it is very serious. My business cannot survive long without the income and I may well go bust.

Like I have said in my previous emails to google (case ref #24943131), if I have done something wrong then I'll accept my punishment - but this whole caconical url problem is a harsh way to lose your livelihood. If this whole caconical url problem only happens to people who have done something wrong - as you claimed some time ago, then you should first sort out the hijacking problem and THEN slap a penalty on the offending site. At least then we can see what is actually going on. Otherwise for a long time the hijacked site would be unable to identify the underlying problem.

Bourbon was expected (by me and many others including Dayo-uk), to finally fix the caconical problem. However, so far, I see no real evidence that Bourbon will suceed.

You say there is still over a week to run.... will this include a full deepcrawl of caconical sites? I don't think my site will ever recover without a full deepcrawl but I am concerned that the hijacking has reduced my pr so much that googlebot has decided not to go deeply into the site (again Dayo-uk is in a similar postion).

I think many people who have put their heart and soul into very well constructed content rich websites are suffering because of a technical glitch within google.

Please, please, please respond to me (or via a sticky I don't mind which).

Kind regards,

Broker Boy

[edited by: broker_boy at 9:10 am (utc) on June 1, 2005]

etraffic104




msg:712058
 9:09 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Thanks Dayo_uk.

Now I understand! That's pretty cool if that will happen! I can't wait to see the new changes. No sense in refocussing my strategies until G is done.

arubicus




msg:712059
 9:10 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

From what I have seen Google Guy is pretty daring to step in front of this crowd. Will be interesting to watch and I have already bought my tickets.

Dayo_UK




msg:712060
 9:26 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Oh well - I guess it is a case of waiting now.

Really hard to concentrate on work though

coconutz




msg:712061
 9:35 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

It's nice to hear that the update is not quite over. But somehow I get the feeling that my pages that no longer rank for relevant phrases are going to move much.

It's almost as if the quality inbound links to my pages are being ignored....

reseller




msg:712062
 9:35 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

Dayo_UK

>Reseller

I hope you did not play any fat lady singing records over the last few days ;) <

AND THE OLD RESELLER HEREBY STAND CORRECTED, until further ;-)

But here is what happened this morning while we were exchanging posts with GG.

My 17 years old daughter (first year in High School of Commerce) should deliver her final examn project (30 pages in colour in 4 examples) today before 12 am. She should also email the project to 3 of her merry fiends who participate in the project. Her printer passed away this morning. So she hijacked my PC for more than an hour. Then I should drive her to school. Why girls always depend on their fathers good will sooooooooo much :-)

oddsod




msg:712063
 10:50 am on Jun 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

I saved off the first 1200 or so posts coming back into town, and got to read the first 550 or so on the plane ride back.

That's admirable. Now why can't I get employees with that level of committment instead of lazy louts who take two weeks off each time they sneeze? (No, and before you ask, I'm not running the offices of a borough council)

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