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Google : Big Corps Have Too Much Control Over Web Services Standards
Brett_Tabke




msg:728613
 3:28 pm on Apr 22, 2005 (gmt 0)


[infoworld.com...]

Vendors such as IBM and Microsoft, in proposing the standards, were big, institutionalized companies trying to protect themselves, Bosworth said. “They were deliberately, in my opinion, making something hard,” he said, citing specifications such as Web Services ReliableMessaging.

 

Powdork




msg:728614
 6:19 am on Apr 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

He also endorsed the concept of tagging. “Tags are sloppy and informal but it works better than anything else out there,” Bosworth said.
What does that mean?
Reid




msg:728615
 4:41 am on Apr 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

It means we should be writing our websites with frontpage LOL

theBear




msg:728616
 10:29 am on Apr 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Let me see this is Google speaking and they are complaining about the likes of IBM and Microsoft.

What have I missed, is Google a small corporation all of a sudden? Is large based on head count, share price, total market capitalization, square footage of facilities, or the number of pending nuisense lawsuits?

Sorry, but isn't this a case of pot meet kettle?

Handling messaging in reliable manner isn't really difficult as much as it is a case of getting all of the details correct.

Sort of like 30X handling.

caveman




msg:728617
 6:18 pm on Apr 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Classic ploy: Act the way you want to be seen ... not the way you are. ;-)

phantombookman




msg:728618
 6:28 pm on Apr 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Pot and kettle are the 2 words that spring most readily to mind!

They should know what they are talking about though, they control up to 97% of all my search engine referals.

dmorison




msg:728619
 7:15 pm on Apr 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Whatever you might think about Google being equally large and influential as Microsoft or IBM, I know exactly where Bosworth is coming from here.

From [w3.org...]
Introduction.

Web Services Addressing (WS-Addressing) defines two interoperable constructs that convey information that is typically provided by transport protocols and messaging systems. These constructs normalize this underlying information into a uniform format that can be processed independently of transport or application. The two constructs are endpoint references and message information headers.

My degree in Software Engineering and 10 years professional experience has absolutely no idea what that means.

2by4




msg:728620
 8:07 pm on Apr 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Here's another newsflash: big corporations have far too much control over how we access information on the web. It's far too hard for example to get your information ranked in Google, to pick one, we have to make it easier...

Google is falling into the 'extremely silly' camp right about now. Is it possible that they simply do not realize that they themselves are one of these big corporations? They'll figure it out eventually I guess.

decaff




msg:728621
 9:40 pm on Apr 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

When you are talking about Web Services you are talking about the main underlying technology standard XML...this is where this statement fits:
“Tags are sloppy and informal but it works better than anything else out there,” Bosworth said....
He is simply saying that with XML you create your own tags to identify your unique content...so it can seem "sloppy and informal" ... because though XML is an embedded standard (thanks to Microsoft landing on the XML side as opposed to the RDF side of Web Services)....it's inherent use as a technology offers some explicit flexibility per application..

Always remember that Microsoft's motive are not altruistic...they are competitive and by being one of the main players establishing these standards...they are really doing what they have always done...protect their marketplace and attempt to lock down the future marketplace called ...WEB SERVICES... so that they can control the technology base...

The fact is there are better solutions available then their .net model...on the open source side...much more flexibility and interactivity/exchanging of data ...

SO in affect Microsoft is, once again, dumbing down the market to their level so they can control the variables...

This would be akin to how they locked up many OEM vendors with their software lisences... (Dell and others..)..

IBM... on the other hand...is more adept at Web Services and is actually looking at all models, I believe......

incrediBILL




msg:728622
 10:04 pm on Apr 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Let's see a raise of hands of everyone that's worked for a megacorp?

Once upon a time I worked for a Silicon Valley company that was gobbled up by Lotus then in turn was gobbled up by IBM. Each level of takeover resulted in an even higher level of "design by committee" which meant everything including the kitchen sink <aka BLOAT> was included to cover everyone's own peculiar needs and projects quickly bloated up like useless smelly dead fish on the shore.

Gone were the simple productive days of:

- Customers want project X
- Sit down and design X in a few days or a week
- Develop X in a couple of months and ship it before the competition and make lots of money

This turned into:

- Let's do an indepth analysis for the need of Project X
<weeks or months transpire>

- Let's hand pick the best cross-product corporate team to design Project X
<weeks or months transpire>

- Let's put this huge cross-product team at work designing Project X via teleconference, video conference, Lotus Notes and <gasp> email.
<more weeks or months or years transpire>

- Let's now put together a design REVIEW team to analyze what the design team came up with
<yet more weeks or months transpire>

- Have the GUI team build a prototype and do usability testing
<more weeks or months transpire>

- Now build the REAL product (the GUI team prototype was 100% throw away of course)
<more months or years or decades transpire>

and on and on and on and that's leaving out some steps....

We had people that facilitated all of these hourly/daily/weekly meetings who's only purpose in life and measure of success was if the current meeting resulted in a follow-up meeting - we referred to them affectionately as 'human speed bumps'.

By the time we shipped the product the operating system or even the computer platform it was built on was obsolete SO we start over :)

<and I bet you wondered what happened to Lotus 1-2-3, now you know>

OK, now insert into this process cross-platform cross-product cross-company meetings with HP, 3COM, APPLE, ADOBE and such and you can see how this nightmare can quickly balloon into bureaucracy of mammoth proportions.

If you're still with me, imagine that THIS corporate mentality now has control over web standards.

Do you have goosebumps yet?

You should, it's a scary movie.

2by4




msg:728623
 11:16 pm on Apr 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Nice story incredibill, that's why as soon as I'm talking to a prospective client and they say, well, we'll have to put this proposal in front of our review team blah blah I generally walk away. I want an answer, and I want to deal with a person who can make a decision on their own, just like I do. Drones and me just don't get along, something about rocking the boat, or the emporers new clothes...

"Do you have goosebumps yet?"

Standards, search, you name it. That's why I find it extremely ironic that the company that dominates the search market, and just had a 50 billion dollar IPO can't seem to realize that it is one of the big boys now. And the longer it's around, the more it will start looking like the scenario you painted. They will fight it, they will resist, they will try to keep the freedom and freshness, but they will fail, just like everyone has failed before them. IMO they've already failed, although they are still able to do decent innovation, but just wait a few years.

theBear




msg:728624
 1:43 am on Apr 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

incrediBill,

BINGO!

Been there done that, been in a nice small shop as well.

The small shop did far more with far less on little time.

There weren't five million "human speedbumps" to contend with.

The last "corp outfit" I worked for is at least 3 years late with a bet the farm project.

They keep restacking the shelves and then wonder why things never get done.

The one before that has outsourced, offshored, inhoused, and circled back again.

While I agree with the fellow in principal, it is riot considering what is calling who "big and bad".

But if folks would just break the thing down it is all the same and has been since day one, properly process an ordered bit stream.

Now I'll get down off my soapbox and go back to my cave to await the replacement of this mess with the next mess ;).

Reid




msg:728625
 2:23 am on Apr 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

Well it all sounds like good news to me because although they all have big ideas and they all have their own 'agenda' apparently nothing will actually be done.

Robert Charlton




msg:728626
 5:28 am on Apr 27, 2005 (gmt 0)

Do you have goosebumps yet?

You should, it's a scary movie.

incrediBILL - You left out the marketing part and the lawyers. ;)

walkman




msg:728627
 6:16 am on Apr 27, 2005 (gmt 0)

pot meet kettle.

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