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Lost in Google
rshandy




msg:758431
 6:39 pm on Feb 27, 2005 (gmt 0)

My site has been in 1st page serps for many years. Just a few weeks ago, my listing went from a title display and decription to just this:

www.mydomain.com/
Similar pages

In addition, my Yahoo listing disappeared as well. I then did a Yahoo search for pages with my domain included and found most of my interior pages indexed but not my home page.

What happened? Is it possible my site was not ready to be crawled when Googlebot and Slurp robots visied my site - simultaneously?

This is a very "white hat" site - no tricks at all, just good content...

I went and manually requested my site be spidered on both Google and Yahoo, and sent an email to Yahoo requesting any explanation as well.

Is there anything else I can do? Any ideas of why this happened?

 

japanese




msg:758432
 2:32 pm on Mar 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

rshandy, have you recently used an automated software to submit to search engines and directories? If so you are more than likely to have agreed to the unethical 302 redirect to your site by many sites. Though you may not have. Let us know either way.

Have you done a INURL:WWW.YOURSITE.COM if so, guide us to it to see if 302, 301, IP DELIVERY, CLOAKED HIJACKING, or META REFRESH culprits have attacked your site.

Also do a LINK:WWW.YOURSITE.COM in msnsearch. Look for any site that has its cached page being your content. Do not be surprised to find many other sites displaying your index page content in the offending URL. msnbot is easily manipulated to hijack other websites. In fact a child could do it. msnbot staff simply do not understand IP DELIVER with a 302 directive and the dire consequences it would have on a legitimate site in their search results.

Yahoo did not completely overcome the hijacking issue, google and msn are trying to find a more refined method that works better.

Many hundreds of thousands of websites have unauthorised 302 protocols to search engines pointing to ther websites. These directives are not dangerous, but they become deadly when a linking path exists for goolebot to follow, then "BANG" your website becomes a supplemental page of the website that has caused the redirect to you. Your listing can end up in a completey unpredictable manner depending on whether an aditional meta refresh page was generated that points to your site simultaneously with the redirect.

Newwebguy1




msg:758433
 11:58 pm on Mar 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hi All, being rather new to this I'm not sure how to use the allinurl command to know if someone is hijacking my site. It's only getting 5% of the visitors it was before the update. When I use the allinurl I see this for one of my sites. www.anothersite.com/www.mysite.com/ is this someone hijacking my site?
are there any other ways to show hi-jacking?
thanks in advance.

japanese




msg:758434
 1:32 am on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Newwebguy1

Welcome to webmasterworld.

In google search box INURL:YOURSITE.COM

If this result produces strange looking url's like [hijacker.com...]

Or indeed a sequence of numbers or anything with your domain name tailing the url, then you are in biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig trouble. Your site is finished and there is little you can do other than to beg the hijacker to release his grip on your site. Note that your site may never again rank in results. Many of these 302 directives are accompanied by meta refresh pages generated at server level that even some hijackers don't know about, and many more unintentional ones get created and the only way you will ever clear the residue is by the offending site being erased from the server it resides in.

However, you can retaliate big time. Let me know your situation. There are certain things the hijacker does not know, in your case, first establish and let us know the result.

Gather evidence that a 302, 301, IP DELIVERY or a META REFRESH exists on an unauthorised site pointing to yours.

If this is the case, let us know. Unbeknown to many hijackers...IT IS THE SECOND MOUSE THAT GETS THE CHEESE. I can assure you that some have paid the ultimate price, including their host providers.

There is simply no reason that a website should point a directive to another site in a manner that is destructive. No defense exists against anybody hijacking your site. Google says that nobody can influence your rankings within their search. Trust me, it is very simple indeed to completely desroy a websites ranking in google and msn, very easy indeed.

I can assure you that Alexa as well is distributing unintetional redirects that are destroying sites in their thousands.

Panacea




msg:758435
 7:56 am on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Japanese

I have a similar experience. During the recent Google update 4 of my top sites slipped from their rankings. These 4 sites are 2 years old, have in excess of 1000 incoming links, all PR5 &6’s, and are in top paying keyword positions. My 4 sites continued to slip into oblivion. Now when I search for them, 2 appear showing their URL but without the title or description, and the other 2 are no longer in the Google index. By using allinurl to search for them, I notice other sites are either using my URL in their URL, or a cached version of my sites are linked to the other sites URL’s.

The strange thing in my case is that my 4 sites are unrelated to each other and yet they all slipped from Google at the same time. It is my supposition however, because they all use the same BIG/CHEAP DOMAIN REGISTER & HOSTING COMPANY, that at the time they were being spidered or updated by Google, perhaps there were problems with my domain name server allowing the sites trying to hijack my sites to win out. And as you said in your previous post, my sites are now seen by Google as supplemental pages of the sites that are using these tactics.

I have emailed Google several times without any response from them. In fact, in Google’s webmaster Info, titled: There's no description of my site. They say:

The Google index contains two types of pages--fully indexed and partially indexed pages. Your page is currently partially indexed, which means that although we know about your site, our robots have not read all the content on your page(s) in past crawls. This does not adversely affect your PageRank or your inclusion in our index. It does mean that we don't 'know' what to call your page, so it gets listed with the URL as the title and no description.

We appreciate the frustration this causes webmasters who work hard to make their sites accessible to users. We are working to increase the number of fully indexed pages in our search results to alleviate this problem.

lego_maniac




msg:758436
 8:16 am on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

I don't think I follow. What's the big deal with 302 redirects coming from these such sites? Why can't you just block referrals from hijacker.com?

www.hijacker.com?redirect=www.yoursite.com

The same technique is already used to stop image freeloaders.

1milehgh80210




msg:758437
 9:20 am on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

I 'lost' my PR7 site (in google)last july. At that time tried numerous searches (including inurl:mysite.com) with no sucess.
But thanks to this thread, tried it one more time.
Lo' & behold, found some strange redirect from a site like those described earlier.
Plus when I visited the site it tried to install some spyware! No contact info. and whois protected too.
Sent recent e-mail to google so we'll see what happens-not holding my breath..

Bobby




msg:758438
 10:10 am on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

If this result produces strange looking url's like [hijacker.com...]

Do you mean something like this?

I've got a few clients whose sites have disappeared from Google and been 'replaced' by this guy.

This one particular individual has registered at least 10 domains all of which are using the same technique and all of which now appear in the SERPs where MY CLIENT used to be.

Is there something we can do?

[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 2:22 am (utc) on Mar. 8, 2005]

Chard




msg:758439
 10:14 am on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Apologies if I have read this wrong, I'm a bit new to this - but when I do one of these inurl:www.mysite, or anyone elses site (including webmasterworld), we all (well nearly all) seem to have one or two of these mysterious results showing, with the url of another site, followed by "goto" or "go" or "jump" then a load of php,%.? and then our url and some mumbo-jumbo with a number and more %,? etc
Are some of these harmless?

lego_maniac




msg:758440
 10:52 am on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Are some of these harmless?

That depends on the method used to do the redirecting, and of course the intent of the site doing the redirection. The general concensus is that 301 redirects (Moved Permanetly) are okay, but 302 (Moved Temporarily) and meta-refresh is detrimental. Why they are treated differently, I'm not sure.

Here's some discussion about pagejacking, 302's, and dupe content penalty.
[webmasterworld.com...]

Chard




msg:758441
 11:58 am on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Thanks lego_maniac - looks like I've got some reading to do!
Can anyone tell me if there is a simple way to tell a malicious one. For instance, this is from my site :

[anothersite.co.uk...]

If asked, I would have assumed that this was just a harmless link

japanese




msg:758442
 2:33 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Panacea.

1milehgh80210.

Bobby.

Chard,

I can assure you all that, assuming all of you are experiencing the same problem, a 302, 301, IP DELIVERY (CLOAKED INDEX PAGE), CLOAKED COPY OF YOUR SITE WITH A 302, CLOAKED META REFRESH, or one of many other IP DELIVERY tricks including the submission to search engines of your sites, either by competitors or yourselves and the LASTEST NASTIEST TRICK OF ALL, A blackhat webmaster looks for your listing in affiliate SKYSCRAPER SITES picks out the go-php, asp, cgi, jump or any other maybe pearl based script that contains your URL in it and submits it to vast numbers of search engines, 302 causing link-farms and directories. Your site will be in danger of being demoted in google, especially msnbot because it is very gullible.

This dastardly trick is designed to fully expose 302 capable scripts as above so that googlebot and msnbot find them. The black hat webmaster may indeed also lay a link or 2 at his own site pages that he knows is frequently visited by the bots, the bots follow his link that also generates keyword results of the SKYSCRAPER site containing say 20 results with your description and link in it with the redirect directive script. He may even use an invisible gif with the bait, post a blog etc.

The moment googlebot finds his link, it follows it to the SKYSCRAPER site…..""""""BANG"""" Down goes all of those sites in google's index because the go-php 302 directive scripts resides on the results links of the 20 sites. Your site is now history. googlebot now deems your site to be supplemental pages of the SKYSCRAPER. In fact NOBODY not even the majority of google staff know exactly what the algo will deem. Safe to say your sites life cycle is over. Period. “A has been that once ranked in google”

Your problem now is only beginning because the blackhat affiliate money seeking SKYSCRAPER website owner, or blackhat reciprocal link webmaster, may have also generated DYNAMICALLY GENERATED META REFRESH pages pointing to your site. These deadly meta refresh pages are hidden and are only there for robots, no human surfer will ever see them.

The only possible solution now is the total deletion of the offending website from the server it resides in. Removal of the redirect protocols is never going to free your site because the venomous residue of the dynamically produced pages will still exist on the server.

All you have to do to destroy a competitor is to place links directed at say ALEXA'S website popularity pages that show what sites are similar to yours and sites that link to them. An unbelievable amount of 302 causing scripts are used by alexa to preserve its own pagerank but at the same time putting into jeopardy the sites it is listing.

Be very much afraid that if googlebot or msnbot visit such pages and a redirect link exists that is pointing to your site, you will end up in oblivion, maybe never to recover the onslaught of this particular type of redirect.. Just to make it worse, the staff that are planting these scripts have no idea of the damage they are causing and without the consent of websites.

Do not expect to get the problem resolved because alexa staff on the e-mail level will never understand what the hell you are talking about. You will be offered other services and maybe a recommended fast food centre as being the nearest thing they can offer to resolve your problem.

I you guys get permission from the webmaster of webmasterworld. I can explain how you can bring about the destruction of an offending site, the actual websites and the servers of the host who do not comply to removing the redirects pointing to you that are unauthorized and causing your websites to disappear in google. Hosting companies are obliged by their licensing contract that they do not host websites that damage other websites by deliberately doing the above. If a host does not conform to closing down or remove offending scripts from a website on their servers they run the risk of their entire network being at the mercy of an irate webmaster that does know how to retaliate in exactly the same manner but a thousand times more lethal to their existence in search engines.

It is very possible to strip offending sites pagerank and hijacking their entire number of html pages and it is also possible to spider dynamic pages and rewrite 302 directives pointing to them in exactly the same manner on a mammoth scale. The rapid spider script eventually depletes the offending sites bandwith allowing the sites deletion in google if a 404 or a 403 is presented via googles URL-CONSOLE. After you register via a proxy site via a virtual server from a friend abroad to googles URL-CONSOLE. You leave the spider to do its job continually via a dynamic IP that changes every minute until the surrender or eradication of the site that refuses to remove its redirects to your site. Imagine the havoc if this is applied to an affiliate SKYCRAPER site that gets paid per clicks and pumps out these redirects. The affiliate feed companies will have to explain why their customers got millions of hits and no sales. Their customers will withdraw their PAY PER CLICK adverts. It is after this that you are now armed with the ability to cripple the host provider of the offending site. You have its entire network of URL’s and pages, because they allowed and refused to remove the redirect links to you. You do the same, only from a dynamic ip address with a special linking structure for robots to first pick up your 302 leads pointing to their servers. Armed with a proper search engine submission software that also submits internal pages up to 6 levels deep. The hosting company may as well shut down.

Bobby




msg:758443
 3:26 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Thanks for your input Japanese, I read your other posts and the situation is definately not a happy one.

Are you aware of a way of blocking the offending site from redirecting?

In my particular case this one individual has at least 10 of these "skyscraper" sites and has caused a few of my clients' sites to lose substantial rank in Google.

What practical advice can you give us to combat this with?

japanese




msg:758444
 4:15 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Booby,

Normally webmasters who create these SKYSCRAPER sites with 302 directives do so to cash in on affiliate link results fed to them by gigantic affilate databases whos owners are well aware of what is going on. No e-mail address and hidden whois is normally the case. But this is not enough to safeguarde their ill gained cache..

Guidelines exist for hosting companies to comply with. They must abide by your request to remove unauthorised redirects to your website. Obtain evidence and present them with it accompanied by at least 50 interlinked pages of your own CGI 302 Directives pointing to the hosting companies website index page and internal pages.

Inform them that unless the offending links are removed, you have interlinked 50 pages containing 302 protocol directives at their root level and internal pages and all that remains for you to do is to submit your pages containing the hoste links to search engines with a software that also delivers to link farms, directories and affiliate databases in the thousands.

You may be threatened with legal action, for jeopardising their rankings in search engines but you are doing no different from what they are doing. Do not be affraid and carry out your threat if they do not remove the directives pointed at you. Your 50 pages will eventually have nice ability to improve your own pagerank by using pure html links to point at strategic pages of your choice.

Enjoy the added bonus. Remove your e-mail so that you cannot be contacted by them. If they get your website removed, no harm will come to you because you would have created these pages on a throwaway url. Don't believe then that they will block your IP abd you cannot do the redirects, it has nothing to do with the threat of retaliation.

japanese




msg:758445
 4:32 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

And bobby,

I forgot to answer your question. NO, there is no way you can create a Fort Knox website.

Think,? create pages in an old throwaway url, incorporate a CGI or pearl based redirect script at server level. create only index pages in folders. To keep tabs, name them after the offending sites and their keywords. Pump heavy inbound links into the throaway URL so that robots are attracted to it. When pointing to their index pages apply a meta refresh at ZERO seconds. The big danger to them here is not your IP for them to block, no sir, the last thing they would want is for search engines to follow the links that trigger the 302 targetted at them.

You now have almighty guns dedicated to one purpose. Moor your ship near the shores of the offending website and blast away. You will then see their posts here asking if there exists any method to stop redirects against them and how they can regain their ranking and the removal of their cached pages in your website. Leave no email contact.

Bobby




msg:758446
 4:43 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

I've already found over 20 domains all of which are in the same "network". I wonder if there is any legal action that can be taken here.

Panacea




msg:758447
 5:21 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Japanese,

It is only on Google that my affected websites have fallen off. They still rank reasonably well on MSN and Yahoo. Why do you think this is?

Do you think Google is aware of these hijacking problems, and if so do you think they can fix it or willing to fix it if it is at all fixable?

Bobby




msg:758448
 5:34 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Panacea I concur, it's only on Google.
It might be because the others take a long time to spider and update however.

I can't imagine how Google couldn't be aware of the problem, they must have received many complaints and I'm sure GoogleGuy has seen these posts. Has anyone tried reporting the problem personally?

japanese




msg:758449
 5:47 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Panacea,

If the robots of msn find and follow the deadly links then you are histry there too, but yahoo did overcome the problem but not very refined.

Bobby,

Yes you can take legal action. First gather the evidence, Especially the directives to your site on paper. Copy all correspondence to the webmaster and host. Warn them repeatedly that you are going to file a Digital Milennium Copyright Act against them and that the host in in breach of his licence.

Make sure their are no flies on you. They will be out to get you with a counter claim and they may conjur up something you are not aware of. Especially the host. They may finish you off financialy.

In the mean time get a friend from abroad to do what I suggested earlier.
Don't even bother contacting google or msn. They are only doing their job listing URL'S THEY FIND ON THE NET. Any Sh*t will do as long as numbers keep increasing for them to boast about. 8 billion sites, I ask you, I know of a website with 25,000 pages, total crap pumping out redurects all day long via affiliate programmes. It is within the count of googles index. Draw your own conlclusion. The webmaster watches blue movies all day, gets his check every month from the affiliate companies, he walks down the road to his bank with a smile on his face. Every month he causes websites to disappear from google and msn.

Whoa




msg:758450
 9:58 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Our site has been cloned over at excite.co.jp.

Does anybody have any experience getting them to cease and desist showing your pages?

Thanks.

zeus




msg:758451
 10:51 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Bobby

I have contacted googleguy with a email, he would look into it, but I think we have to face they cant fix this problem.

The only solution to this is, BANE ALL SITE THAT ARE USING 302 REDIRECTING

1milehgh80210




msg:758452
 10:55 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

When this starts to affect MAJOR sites. And sites that the SE's have major business dealings with...then the problem will be solved..

zeus




msg:758453
 11:13 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

milehigh - Its said but maybe you are right in this, its has to be written in a big newspaper so the stock holder can see it or a huge business site whos loosing cash and I even think they could sue google because many of those bad site are sponsored by adsense.

I have even contacted adsense with a site that is hijacking mine, it is a pure scraper site, but nothing is done,maybe they earn to much(but personally I cant believe that is the case)

Panacea




msg:758454
 11:41 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

I fail to understand how these hijacking sites stand to profit from their endeavours? Obviously they have succeeded in getting my site off Google, but how do they capitalize on all the effort.

When I search for the keywords that my site use to rank high in, I do not see the Hijacking site occupying the position in which my site used to be in.

japanese




msg:758455
 11:51 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

Zeus,

I have been studying your posts. I think you are one of the most infomed about this big problem.

I read a lot of googeGuys posts, trust me, I think he is living on another planet. He sounds like a very nice guy and I am sure he is. But we are not discussing in this forum idealism or utopian altruism. We are discussing why so many websites have been hijacked and millions of dollars lost by websites that do not know what the hell is going on.

Templated SKYSCRAPER sites pumping out redirects and getting paid for clicks at the expense of the sites that have unauthorised redirects pointed at them. I had 2 such sites showing my index page as being theirs in google. 1 of those sites was shut down 4 days after I noticed it in google's index. I saved a lot of headache for many sites. I am in dispute at the moment with ALEXA and a few others. Check out a popularity page at alexa, right click properties on the links it has on websites it says links to you, do a header viewer on the alexa link, you will find it causes a 302 directive to robots. Many websites have lost ranking because of this. A competitor can submit the deadly links to search engines and your website is finished. It will be a supplemental page of alexa.

theBear




msg:758456
 11:53 pm on Mar 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

zeus,

Here is the solution for all redirects it is very simple.

The page redirected to belongs to the site that the target page is on.

Not the page it was redirected from. That ends the whole flippin' problem.

There is no need to ban anything.

japanese




msg:758457
 12:19 am on Mar 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

TheBear,

Can you please elaborate on that. Seems you pointed out very little in a doctrinaire fashion, suggesting that you know about how googlebot’s algo works in great detail.

Can you provide contradictory evidence if I placed a cast iron evidence here in the next post?

How do you know about pages being involved in a redirect. Unless I am missing something here or I am a useless webmaster, I was of the opinion that a script based redirect link, such as a deadly CGI one, is a sole entity generated via a pearl serverside script when clicked by a browser or followed by a robot. A robot follows that redirect, if it finds it’s location displayed by the directive of the link, with a 200 GET, the bot can only do what the writers of the algo tell it to do. The page containing the kick off link is already a page, the hijacked page becomes an additional supplemental page. So if badguy.com had one page with the script redirects he now has 2.

Zeus is 100% correct in thinking that these scripts are harmful to unsuspecting websites. They are used too indescriminately, and by the way, html was the original linking tool, many scripts have since been invented and it is proving impossible to contain them all as a family of scripts that are in harmony.

If I imvented a scripting language, would it be assumed I helped to evolve the internet, or would it be assumed that another mess has to be cleaned up?

theBear




msg:758458
 12:57 am on Mar 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'm saying that Google knows where it landed it was told where to go by the redirect.

So it knows, I'm not saying that they do the right thing, just that they know.

Every piece of code I've ever seen, written, or used has had bugs in it.

It is a bug on Google's part.

Now just so you know, I've been writing and using computer code for over 35 years.

Idaho




msg:758459
 1:30 am on Mar 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

I have two sites that appear to have been hijacked in the manner described here. The sites have been missing in Google for several months at substantial monetary loss to myself. It is just now that I'm starting to understand what has happened to them. I'm very disappointed that GoogleGuy and even the mods on this forum aren't discussing it.

Perhaps a simple statement from GoogleGuy that Google is working on it would prevent webmasters from resorting to the types of retaliation that Japanese is suggesting.

japanese




msg:758460
 2:04 am on Mar 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

Idaho,

The problem is bigger than anybody here can imagine. Google and MSN are having very big problems trying to find a refined solution.

The internet was never designed to work with redirect scripts. Many blackhat webmasters started cashing in on the loophole at least a year ago. Making a competitor disappear into oblivion was the name of the game. Now it is a free for all. Simply do nothing and your birth right to create a website becomes the property of cheap script writers who think they are the beez kneez. What they are really doing is creating an effect, in many cases an AFFECT with a detrimental element to it.

Like there are specialists in medicine, there are back street abortion clinics.

Like there is Microsoft, there is back street script writers out to make a quick buck.

You will not find a redirect script that was specially written to be robot friendly. They were written to make money or to achieve a means. Unless people wake up and realise how messed up the internet is, it will get dirtier before it gets better.

Think? Do script writers have access to the algo of googlebot? I think they do not and they write whatever it takes to get an AFFECT.

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