homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 23.23.12.202
register, free tools, login, search, pro membership, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Become a Pro Member

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google SEO News and Discussion
Forum Library, Charter, Moderators: Robert Charlton & aakk9999 & brotherhood of lan & goodroi

Google SEO News and Discussion Forum

This 823 message thread spans 28 pages: < < 823 ( 1 ... 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 ... 28 > >     
Update Allegra - Google Update 2-2-2005
illusionist

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 1:34 pm on Feb 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

My site which came back on december 26 update, seems to have disappeared again on this data center [216.239.53.99...] . Its notwhere to be found even in allinanchor, allintitle etc? I see majot change on that data center, is this a new update?

 

soapystar

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 2:44 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

If enough webmasters get fed up and ban Googlebot, word will get out that Google's index is not complete, because their bot has been banned. People will go elsewhere to search, because they know Google can't list all the sites due to the ban.

the list of TRULY banned sites on yahoo makes that pretty insignificant by comparison, yet thats had no affect on users.

lgn1

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 2:49 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

Old onsite optimization has regained weight.

I disagree with this one.

I have never played the link game. I have concentrated on onsite factors, and have been spending my time adding content. We actually have a low number of sites linking to us (less than 300) across all search engines reports.

We still have managed to stay in the top 10 for our most important keywords. Now with the the Alegra update, we are at position number 93.

itloc

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 2:51 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

yeah ... its not a way to "change" something or make the world a better place or so ...

It's just to save wasted bandwith ... nothing personal against Google - just business...

itloc

donb01

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:00 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

I had similar results to post #509. My traffic was so high in January I was actually scared that I wasn't going to have enough bandwidth to keep everyone happy. Google, which normally gives me almost exactly double the referrals of Yahoo, with MSN coming in 3rd, took off like a rocket. My site that normally gets between 3.5 to 4.5G of traffic a month was poised to hit 6G. Then, about Jan 21, it dropped like a brick - at least a couple hundred referrals a day. I had written it off to people getting done looking to spend their Xmas money, and having tax anxiety, and figured it would pick back up when the refunds started rolling in. Looking further though now that a new month has begun, I see Yahoo is giving me 3 times the traffic of Google, and even MSN is double which is unheard of for me. I have also noted, using tools I have used long enough to trust as at least benchmarks, that I appear to have lost at least 10 backlinks in Google the last time I looked. That just plain sucks, but I have been trying for several years to spread myself out and not depend just on one basket to hold my eggs, so I am still getting a reasonable amount of traffic, and the funny thing is the visitors are staying longer and looking at more too!

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:07 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

If enough webmasters get fed up and ban Googlebot, word will get out that Google's index is not complete, because their bot has been banned. People will go elsewhere to search, because they know Google can't list all the sites due to the ban.

Users aren't looking for "all the sites"--they're merely looking for pages that fit their search criteria. If a search on "purple widgets" returns 995 search results instead of 1,000, (or even 900 results instead of 1,000), how many users are going to know or care, as long as they find what they need in the first 10?

Macro

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:16 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

If a search on "purple widgets" returns 995 search results instead of 1,000, (or even 900 results instead of 1,000), how many users are going to know or care

But, talking about banning Googlebot seems to be serving some therapeutic value here :).

max_mm

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:21 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)


Users aren't looking for "all the sites"--they're merely looking for pages that fit their search criteria.

Imagine user's being informed (over millions of web sites) with something like "We recommend that you use xyz search engine for best results".

This is where we, webmasters can make a difference and inform users that they are not getting the full picture.

[edited by: max_mm at 3:23 pm (utc) on Feb. 7, 2005]

Whoa

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:22 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

It's strange that nobody from Google posts on this MIA phenomenon where sites drop 90 or so spots in the rankings when they are not breaking any rules.

When unique site names for above-board sites are so far down in the rankings, it's obvious that Google is broken. Why are they silent?

If an airline's planes can't fly, they come out and tell you what's happening. If a car maker's car rolls, they initiate a crisis PR campaign.

It's a PR Disaster waiting to happen. All somebody needs to do is build a media database of journalists who cover Google, Yahoo, MSN, search, etc. Then, create a blog that covers ridiculous results - e.g. x.com is way down in the rankings so when people search on x, they cannot find x.com. Then, write a pitch and blast the story out to the media: Google is Broken. That can be big news in all sorts of mainstream publications.

To avoid this scenario, Google would just need to come on in places like this and say: Be patient. We are implementing a new update. We are confident that many of you who are currently experiencing bad search results for searches where you deserve better will soon see that this update will correct those temporary search problems.

Why don't they do that? I think they are worried that a statement like that would simply spread the word that their search capabilties are having big troubles. It could tank the stock frankly.

Why don't the media cover the story? Obviously, they don't hang out here. They don't track this topic close enough to be able to detect this news on their own.

Why don't webmasters bring this story to the media? Well, I think they believe that you should not bite the hand that feeds you. In this case, for Allegra victims, the slogan morphs to you should not bite the hand that once fed you (because it may feed you again).

Would Google employees ever stoop to punishing individual webmasters who they don't like? I have a feeling they do it, even though it probably opens them up to a big legal liability.

I also believe we owe Google a little time to straighten this mess out - maybe a week and a half. But if there's no correction and no response, I think it's good to be more vocal -- outside of isolated places like this one.

It's really sad that I now am viewing Google as an ugly monopolistic company that doesn't care about its end users. I used to reserve that for Microsoft. So, whether the press has covered Allegra or not, I think the PR disaster has already happened for Google. A sad few days.

Really, all it would take is for a Google employee to come on here and say "Be patient during this update. We are tracking your issues and comments closely. Thanks for your continued support of Google."

That could win back a lot of hearts at this point.

djgreg

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:29 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

The site: command is not working on [216.239.53.99...] at the moment for my sites?!
* site:www.my.com gives zero results while there hundreds of sites in the index listed.

Also [216.239.53.99...] seems to have the freshest data.
The index on this datacenter is much more spammy than before Allegra. On page-optimaziation seems to play a big role. h1 and repeated keywords rule the serps.
For example one site I monitor (not mine, a competitors site) has the keyword 4 times in the title and 4 times in a h1 tag on the site. Additionally this guy has linked all his pages on the bottom of each and every page. Old style Crosslinking seems to work again.
Needless to say that the site looks horrible for the user.

Another VERY strange thing I saw is a sitemap of one of my domains ranking very good for competitive keywords. There is none keyword in the title and the sitemap is structured like
keyword1 link-to-keyword-1.html
keyword2 link-to-keyword-2.html
This sitemap ranks better on each and every search term than the sites it links to do.
In fact it shloud be the other way round, because the surfer does not want to be presented a sitemap. He wants the site with the content on it.

greg

Dayo_UK

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:34 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

djgreg

I am assuming that your site is new(ish). This datacentre does not seem to have new sites and all pages are in the supplemental index for all other sites (weird).

Whoa - good post

This is the crux of the problem as far as I can see. If Google can not return a site based on that site/companies unique name then there are problems.

If a search on "purple widgets" returns 995 search results instead of 1,000, (or even 900 results instead of 1,000), how many users are going to know or care, as long as they find what they need in the first 10?

If someone is searching for a companies website then they will not get what they need in the top 10 - unless what they want is to visit another website/directory before visiting the companies site.

[edited by: Dayo_UK at 3:38 pm (utc) on Feb. 7, 2005]

lammert

WebmasterWorld Senior Member lammert us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:37 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

Imagine user's being informed (over millions of web sites) with something like "We recommend that you use xyz search engine for best results".

I remember all those "This site is optimzed for browser XX and screen resulution YY" sites. I normally hit the back button when such a message appears.

For every site going down in the SERPs, one or more are going up. There is only place for 10 listings on the first page and the new update just takes another subset of all available pages to be present on the first page. Percentage of spam pages is far below the percentage on Yahoo and MSN for the keywords I look at, so I think SERPs are good for the user.

My best performing page went down in the SERPs, but other pages went up for other keyword sequences. Total Google traffic is about the same, so in fact I am happy. Traffic from Google is more spread over the pages.

irvingguy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:40 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

Larry & Sergey,

Hope this reaches you. I am a well-wisher of Google & was a fan....uptil now.

my website is online since 1999. for last 5 years, we have been on first page first site for our primary keywords.

But, now with this recent algo change of urs, we are nowhere.

This is simply NOT LOGICAL! I categorically state that, we have not spammed or used any technique which is called as black-hat.

In your race in rolling out new products, you have forgotten what your core competancy & responsibility is.

If this is the way you are gonna give importance to the quality of your algo, then I forsee Google going the Alta Vista way. I know many people have already said this before, but I just HAD to say this.

regards,

Paul.

wspwsp

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:43 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hello there,

I have a question.

I have a site which index page was PR4 on 1 Feb and now is PR0 and google shows no cache. However, the inbound links (to the index page) had increased (according to G) and the inner pages are the same PR. The SERPs are almost the same too.

What do you think it could be? Penalty form G? Any clue?

I had the same problem with a different site some time ago, but it was due to meta-refresh link to the site. I doubt this time is the same.

Liane

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:46 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

Just a few weeks ago there were only a few of us on here that were #*$!ing about Google. Now there seems to be hundreds! What do you all think of Google now? Are you all still PRO-GOOGLE? Bring the heat MSN!

Yes ... I'm still pro Google because I have good reason to be. That doesn't mean that I am not thrilled that MSN has jumped into the frey. More traffic is more traffic and makes me very happy!

It doesn't mean I don't feel for those of you who are suffering right now. I know how devastating this experience can be. However, huffing and puffing and throwing out meaningless threats does not solve your problem.

It has already been suggested that you start sharing observations and trying to figure out what may be happening. But I can't stress enough that it is still too soon to tell! The data centers still haven't settled.

Has history ever seen the sort of commercial situation that site-owners like ourselves face now?

Many times! Just look in the archives for "Florida" and you'll read several, very similar threads. Google likes to shake things up every now and then lest webmasters become complacent. We have to be ready for it.

Maybe if more webmasters join forces and start taking actual action against this weird seismic google ups and downs (with absolute disregard to the impact it have on so many web sites/businesses). Maybe then the guys at google will think twice before shacking the boat too hard (SERPs and Adsense). Maybe then they will roll what ever algo changes they have SLOWLY.

I can only hope my competitors feel the same way as you and block Googlebot! :)

If enough webmasters get fed up and ban Googlebot, word will get out that Google's index is not complete, because their bot has been banned.

Never going to happen, unless of course you want to lead the parade and we'll see how many follow. :) Its best to face the facts. See what happens in the next week or so and then get down to some serious analysis of what has transpired and try as a group to figure out how to "fix your sites".

It's strange that nobody from Google posts on this MIA phenomenon where sites drop 90 or so spots in the rankings when they are not breaking any rules.

That's why I am still a little nervous myself ... despite great rankings and even better referrals. Usually, by this point GoogleGuy has chimed in with at least a couple of comments. His lack of participation makes me think something could be very wrong with the algo and that nobody is safe. :(

Macro

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:51 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

I wouldn't read anything into GoogleGuy not participating. His previous participation in update threads was pre-IPO. It's the public status that restricts his participation now.

djgreg

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:51 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

Dayo_UK:
The site I was talking about is new , that's correct. But I tryed it with several other older sites and the results are shocking. For example there is a website that I redesigned about 6 months ago. Before it was .php now it is .html . The .html were listed pretty good but and there about 1500 urls in the index until Allegra. Now Google finds 20 sites, all old .php sites which son't exist since 6 months. I am wondering why they saved this sites over such a long period of time, even they have been deleted from my domain.

greg

Macro: It's a great pity but I think you're right... :-(

[edited by: djgreg at 3:54 pm (utc) on Feb. 7, 2005]

Bonusbana

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:53 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

Serps changes everyday over here. One sandboxed page took a deeper dive 3 days ago, but is now almost acting like its out of the box (after 6 months). Another new site (january 1st) took a stroke from this update, and my hopes of avoiding the sandbox with small uncompetitive keywords died.

Seems like google is actually getting wiser.

All datacenters shows different results, theese observations are from the main google.com page.

Nikke

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:54 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

The site: command is not working on [216.239.53.99...] at the moment for my sites?!

It hasn't been, for a couple of days. Still the very same DC show pretty decent results for the same domain it won't return any pages on with the site: command.

sem4u

WebmasterWorld Senior Member sem4u us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 3:54 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

I expect GoogleGuy and the other engineers are monitoring the update and checking threads like this one. It looks like someone turned one of the knobs up a bit too high, and I expect a partial roll back within 1-2 weeks, if the current results hold up.

suggy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 4:00 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

At last, a voice of reason.

Liane you are so right. We're all too keen to start #*$!ing and talking up revolt. I did on Thursday / Friday, then I braved it and actually looked at the SERPs and analysed why sites have moved above me. I've now formulated my strategy for this algo if it sticks.

My only beef with Allegra is that I wasted at least 12 hours moaning / panicking. But that was my fault. Many of us have been here before (eg Florida) and we made it back, made some money, and now... off we go again. But that's life...

2 steps forward, one back may be a bummer, but it seems to be the law of business - let alone SEO. Progress just ain't a constant upward trend.

Frankly, words in this thread would be better used discussing the current algo / changes.


amznVibe

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 4:03 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

By the way, Kuro5hin has a very good article [kuro5hin.org] about the damage from this update as well as the 301/302 redirect issues. Most importantly, it has a really nice index of all the meaningful Webmasterworld threads, since there really is no useful index/search on WebmasterWorld (strangely enough).

valeyard

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 4:05 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

This sitemap ranks better on each and every search term than the sites it links to do.
In fact it shloud be the other way round, because the surfer does not want to be presented a sitemap. He wants the site with the content on it.

Interesting you should say that, I've been wondering if they've turned up the "outgoing links" knob too high. I'm also seeing a lot of cases where ranking is being given to pages that link to relevant pages rather than the relevant pages themselves.

Then again this update is such a mess it wouldn't surprise me to learn that a cat walked over the master control panel and randomly knocked all the knobs and switches around...

Jalinder

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 4:09 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

how to "fix your sites"
>> Yes I prefer discussion on this.

lgn1

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 4:14 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

I wonder if Google is using Geolocation more extensively in the new algorthim. If we do a search on our keywords on google.ca and select the 'list sites only in canada' check box, we move from 92 to #1.

Hanu

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 4:22 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

If we do a search on our keywords on google.ca and select the 'list sites only in canada' check box, we move from 92 to #1.

What's the number of hosts among those 91 matches in the unrestricted search that are hosted in Canada? If zero, then it is logical that you go to number one. If it is not zero, that might be interesting.

eddy22

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 4:33 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)


Is it better to add new content to our site?
Will hijack 301/302 redirect effect our site?

walkman



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 4:34 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

To anyone talking about suing Google or banning them: let's get real. While I understand your frustration (my site has been 95% off and 5% on for the past 6 months), Google doesn't give a rats -ss, if you or 1000 webmasters ban Gbot. Go ahead and try it.

As far as suing: They don't owe us anything, and no matter how wrong it is or it may seem, you have NO case.

Thank you.

eddy22

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 4:36 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

Is it better to add new content to our site?

How will hijack 301/302 redirect effect our site?

WebFusion

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 5:08 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

Has history ever seen the sort of commercial situation that site-owners like ourselves face now? In such mass numbers? Certainly not a scenario for the faint-hearted, eh? It does remind me of the dangers of monopolies, and of the value of diversification.

First, Google IS NOT a monopoly. Our site receives over 80% of it's traffic from sources OTHER THAN Google. The main problem that these updates always brings to light is the compacency so many webmasters exhibit in failing to develop a SUSTAINABLE marketing plan that does not factor in guaranteed traffic form any one source. We get over 100 buying customers a day from Yahoo/MSN alone. Try it....you'll sleep better.

That's why, if you are relying too much on Google traffic, you have to diversify. Now. Those of you who have benefiited from Allegra need be most afraid. You're more likely to be complacent and therefore more likely to get burned.

That's the key. If you gained, use the additional revenue to build additional traffic streams. If you lost, take it as a valuable lesson and develop a marketing plan that is no longer dependent on what is essentially free advertising. Frankly, if I have to read one more "Oh no....I lost my position in the serps, I'm ruined!" post, I'll puke.

but there is no denying even though other search engines produce traffic there is no denying google seems to bring 90% of the customers.

Sorry...but the 200+ customers that purchased from us over the last 3 days that WERE NOT google referrals refute that. The very thought that the only commercially viable traffic MUST come from google is laughable (although probably EXACTLY what they want you to think). Case in point: Our site was in google purgetory (all results showed up at 100+ pages) until this update, and we still turned a 6 digit profit last year. Imagine that.

block the Google bot because today it wont list your site..?..wow..theres long term strategy for yer!

...just what I was thinking. Talk about throwing the rattle out of the pram...

How does it help you to make threats against Google (there are several of those too)? <sigh>

Because if google doesn't list my site the way I think it deserves to be listed, I'm going to boycott google, and tell all my friends to boycott google, and they'll tell their friends, and they'll tell their friends, and so on, and so on....

YAWN

The truth is (and what so many webnmaster have blinders on to) google caters to the lowest common denominator, i.e. the "average" user (a borderline computer illiterate) who find what they want, have no idea what an affiliate program is, could care less about getting the abosute best reults, as long as they can find what they want in a couple of clicks. These posts of "I've had many users tell me they're switching from google to msn/yahoo, etc"., are simply bunk. The group opinion of your buddies you play dungeons and dragons with doesn't count. Go ask Aunt Sally what engine she's using, and if she's thinking of switching due to this latest update, and I guarantee you'll get the same response everytime: "What update?".

Maybe if more webmasters join forces and start taking actual action against this weird seismic google ups and downs (with absolute disregard to the impact it have on so many web sites/businesses). Maybe then the guys at google will think twice before shacking the boat too hard (SERPs and Adsense). Maybe then they will roll what ever algo changes they have SLOWLY

Yeah, that will work. All the webmasters who arent' ranking where they think they deserve to be will join forces and prevent google from ranking their sites. What an impact that will have.

I already started removing the google search box and recommending MSN & Yahoo search to my visitors on all of my sites.

That makes alot of sense. Hmmmm.....I'm not getting any google traffic, so I'll tell all my users who are reaching me from Yahoo/MSN to...(wait for it)...keep using Yahoo/Msn and stop using google. Yep, that should bring google to it's knees.

The google power over our lives is way too great, and i feel that something must be done about it.

The funny thing is....you're the one giving google that power - by failing to build alternative streams of traffic. It's like hiring an workaholic arsonist as the sole employee to run a gas station. Sure, he works like hell, and makes you a ton of money, but you're always worried he'll burn the place down. If you hired 3 or 4 average employees, you'd get the same amount of work done, without having to worry about your businenss going up in smoke.

If enough webmasters get fed up and ban Googlebot, word will get out that Google's index is not complete, because their bot has been banned. People will go elsewhere to search, because they know Google can't list all the sites due to the ban.

Trouble is....the only webmasters to join your "ban" will be those who already have lousy listing. I doubt the #1 rate site from "travel to (wherever)" would be keen on shutting off that traffic source to make a symbolic "stand".

Around the end of January 2004 my main site dropped like a stone for my keywords, however I took evasing action and now have advertising in place that means I generate the money I need from my site(s)
I have ignored google for the most part and carried on growing my site and it appears within the last 2 days I am getting the rankings that I had a year ago and google has more than doubled its traffic to me, with the extra from MSN and Yahoo I am suitably happy with twice the traffic I have been used to, however I know that if and when it changes I will not be reliant on google again so it's a lesson learned for me, and at this point a nice bonus to be getting much improved SERPS.

At least some webmasters get it ;-)

[edited by: WebFusion at 5:12 pm (utc) on Feb. 7, 2005]

Block19Row13

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 11:51 am on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

that google visited my site and performed a very thorough crawl.

i am the web site manager for an online retailer.

last june / july google caught on to some bad pratice being used by our ecommerce provider and dropped every shop they had using their software (this is of course our opinion only and has not been proven).

we then moved to a new ecommerce company and went live with a new site last november, google came gave PR4 and lsited our pages.

most of our important terms were not in the top 10 pages.

i came in this morning and ran my weekly report and we have jumped massivley, im talking 8 pages or more for most key phrases.

now i am presuming that since our last deep crawl 3/4 months ago, i have added over 250 pages, trimmed pages, adjusted content ect.

and now i believe that ggogle has found these changes through a deep crawl and rewarded the site.

am i right in saying that continous work is rewarded?

2oddSox

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 27801 posted 12:24 pm on Feb 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

The work that you did certainly had every chance of improving your rankings. As you specifically mention Google it would appear that you have gained from the latest tweaking that G appear to be doing. If you cast your eyes over to the Google Forum, you'll see some pretty hefty threads [webmasterworld.com] going on right now about this update.

Congrats on your new rankings.

This 823 message thread spans 28 pages: < < 823 ( 1 ... 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 ... 28 > >
Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google SEO News and Discussion
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Home ¦ Free Tools ¦ Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About ¦ Library ¦ Newsletter
WebmasterWorld is a Developer Shed Community owned by Jim Boykin.
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved