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Speeding Up Permanent Entry - Adwords? Links?
Most Reliable way to speed up getting PageRank of 1 or 2
The Subtle Knife




msg:181482
 10:16 pm on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

We've submitted domains, and last month they all got indexed and appeared in google searches, presumably due to fresh bot and the extremely annoying google dance.

Now where are no-where to be seen, as I assume google was unable to calculate an accurate page rank and gave up until the next google dance lark.

My Question is, does running a small adword campaign speed up getting a Page Rank? Surely, the must have an obligation to give you Page Rank quicker if your giving them your hard earned cash?

I assume getting into ODP and Yahoo also increases the change of getting a PR rank quicker, aren't these still "golden sites" and any links from golden sites help increase page rank right?

Does anybody have a proven list of golden sites for example?

 

Batman




msg:181483
 10:33 pm on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

AdWords doesn't affect your ranking in any way (neither the time it takes or the ranking you get).

Mohamed_E




msg:181484
 10:41 pm on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

You need quality links, and it does not really matter where you get them from. The advantage of Yahoo and ODP is that many other sites will complain that you do not have enough PR for them to be willing to link to you, the "chicken and egg" story. Yahoo and DMOZ do not care about your PR, so they are very suitable as first links.

Read Brett's excellent post on "Successful Site in 12 Months with Google Alone" at [webmasterworld.com...]

It may not take a whole year, but SEO is not for those seeking instant gratification :(

The Subtle Knife




msg:181485
 11:03 pm on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

"AdWords doesn't affect your ranking in any way (neither the time it takes or the ranking you get). "

Proof Please - this is like, we haven't been to the moon kind of wishy washy statement.

It's makes good commercial sense to give a pagerank faster
to a paying client, so I if was in google, I'd be indexing paying clients faster than non-paying ones.

Also, none of the get a good search engine stuff in 12 months - This thread is about speeding up not slowing things down for god's sake, I've read that, I still have no page rank! (mind you it's month 2 and we've only been through one google dance)

so read my question as How to get a Page Rank of 1 on the First Google Dance.

Shakil




msg:181486
 11:37 pm on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

Proof Please - this is like, we haven't been to the moon kind of wishy washy statement.

sitting around a table with people whose Business Card has the word "guru" and they work at Google might give you an idea that it does not work.

alternatively same scenario but Business Card includes the words "head of" "adwords" and they also work at Google might give you another idea.

it does NOT happen.

Shak

The Subtle Knife




msg:181487
 12:44 am on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

sitting around a table with people whose Business Card has the word "guru" and they work at Google might give you an idea that it does not work.

alternatively same scenario but Business Card includes the words "head of" "adwords" and they also work at Google might give you another idea.

it does NOT happen.

Shak

Again, just wish wash. Please give me a URL from google, or some statement that can be linked from google.

That's the problem as far as I can see, unless I can prove your credentials it's just wish wash right?

So Google Guy, please, comments please.

Stefan




msg:181488
 12:55 am on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

"We've submitted domains, and last month they all got indexed and appeared in google searches, presumably due to fresh bot and the extremely annoying google dance."

"Now where are no-where to be seen, as I assume google was unable to calculate an accurate page rank and gave up until the next google dance lark."

It sounds as though you weren't indexed, just in from the freshbot.
The last update relected the deepcrawl from early Jan.

Try reading up on everflux.

kovacs




msg:181489
 1:01 am on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

I generally only lurk here, but The_Subtle_Knife, I just have to say that your attitude is sadly lacking, considering that you are coming here looking for help.

All of the answers you seek are in the archives, and in Google, so UTFSE.

coconutz




msg:181490
 1:15 am on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>Does anybody have a proven list of golden sites for example?<<

Google Information for Webmasters

2. What else can I do to get listed in Google?

"Google partners on the Web include Yahoo! and Netscape. If you are having difficulty getting listed in the Google index, you may want to consider submitting your site to either or both of these directories. You can submit to Yahoo! by visiting http: //docs.yahoo.com/info/suggest/. You can submit your site to Netscape's Open Directory Project (DMOZ) by visiting www.dmoz.org. Once your site is included in either of these directories, Google will often index your site within six to eight weeks."

kovacs, Welcome to WebmasterWorld [webmasterworld.com].

BigDave




msg:181491
 1:23 am on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

[google.com...]

I suggest that you read that page along with the others at

[google.com...]

Along with the original PageRank wish wash Documents if you want to figure these things out.

The Subtle Knife




msg:181492
 2:40 am on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)


A. How does Google rank pages?
1. The basics

Google's order of results is automatically determined by more than 100 factors, including our PageRank algorithm.

The google FAQ has to be the best quality wish wash around,
I've read is many many times.

If they say 100 factors, I think we as a think tank should
able to come up with say 10 major factors and agree upon them?

That's the purpose of the "Page Rank for Dummies" thread.

To create a common language and indentify the main factors,
and use those factors to come up with an equation.

BigDave




msg:181493
 3:40 am on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

First you say
Please give me a URL from google, or some statement that can be linked from google.

then you say
The google FAQ has to be the best quality wish wash around,
I've read is many many times.

You really have me confused.

For one thing, I obviously do not understand what you mean by "wish wash". At first i though you were trivializing these documents, but that just can't be, because you have used that term to describe many of the autoritative documents on the subject. Could you please explain what wish wash means?

As fot the 100 factors, that is not 100 factors that go into PageRank, it is 100 factors of which PageRank is *one factor*. Therefore that discussion does not belong in the dummy thread.

Here are 10 factors for you.

1. PageRank
2. Keyphrase in anchor text
3. Keyphrase in title
4. Keyphrase density
5. Keyphrase in URL
6. Keyphrase in H1 tag
7. Keyphrase in outgoing anchor text
8. Keyphrase position on page
9. File type (html, pdf, doc, txt)
10. Replace all the Keyphrases above with Keywords if they are not on the page as a phrase

Some of these are just educated guesses by people that have been at this a long time.

The Subtle Knife




msg:181494
 2:47 pm on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)


1. PageRank
2. Keyphrase in anchor text
3. Keyphrase in title
4. Keyphrase density
5. Keyphrase in URL
6. Keyphrase in H1 tag
7. Keyphrase in outgoing anchor text
8. Keyphrase position on page
9. File type (html, pdf, doc, txt)
10. Replace all the Keyphrases above with Keywords if they are not on the page as a phrase

I'm aware that some factors have been binned, i.e. ALT text
and hidden text.

Can we all agree upon a factor list - perhaps even vote,
as so far (for many years now) there's too much
on an adhoc approach to search engineering.

Writing programs is an exact science, we should be able to reverse engineer and create a set of axioms and rules.

Can we do this as a Think Tank? (Instead to just arguing with each other (bigdave) )

Nothing definite or positive seems to come out of these search engineering web-site/forums. We need
to devise a system to get this knowledge agreed and tested and kept updated. Reading thousands of posts and ad-hoc opinions based on "gut" feeling it just not helpful.

Surely we can test every factor with a real example?

atadams




msg:181495
 2:55 pm on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

Proof Please

It's hard to prove a negative. Why don't you prove it does.

The Subtle Knife




msg:181496
 3:37 pm on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

It's hard to prove a negative. Why don't you prove it does.

Likely probability? Vote? We need something.

Proof is probably too accurate, as maths proofs, proof something 100%.

Every coder know that coding is a very precise science.
There should be examples, that make it highly probable.
Examples?

This kind of rubuttals, help no-one to learn anything.

We can all state lot's of statements, but if we can't even agree on them, googles wins I'm afraid.

Google has been winning for too long I think. We need
to set up a positive think tank - not argue opinions forever. We all lose out that way.

NickCoons




msg:181497
 4:01 pm on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

The_Subtle_Knife,

<Writing programs is an exact science, we should be able to reverse engineer and create a set of axioms and rules.>

The problem here is the amount of time all of this takes (several weeks until a crawl, then several until an update). The way to figure this out is to experiment.. putting up multiple sites that are identical in every way except for the variable that you want to test. Then wait a month and a half for the results.

Of course, the knowledge you accumulate from this is outdated as soon as you've learned it, because it simply means that's how Google ranked the site last time, which is not necessarily how they will rank the site next time since they're continuously making modifications to their algorithm. Putting in this much effort seems hardly worth it to most people.

So for now, using the original algorithm in conjunction with "gut" feelings, based on our experiences as far as those changes, is probably our best bet.

atadams




msg:181498
 4:16 pm on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

I think the phases of the moon affect the PR of certain pages. Can someone prove they don't?

NickCoons




msg:181499
 4:34 pm on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

Maybe the phases of the moon are what cause the deepcrawls and updates.

lazerzubb




msg:181500
 4:39 pm on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

Yeah it's when their Internet Satellite goes in to signal shadow because the moon is in the way that they stop spidering ;)

atadams




msg:181501
 4:48 pm on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

Maybe the phases of the moon are what cause the deepcrawls and updates.

Oh, come on. You'd have to be really gullible [webmasterworld.com] to believe that.

:)

billg51




msg:181502
 5:05 pm on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

When I read [google.com...] I noticed at the bottom it says Google is able to index many file types.

Now, I didn't see PHP listed on it. Was this just missed on the FAQ, or does Google not index PHP?

Yidaki




msg:181503
 5:34 pm on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

>Google is able to index many file types.
>Now, I didn't see PHP listed on it. Was this just missed on the FAQ, or does Google not index PHP?

Google indexes php! That's a fact - not wish wash!

BigDave




msg:181504
 6:09 pm on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

Instead to just arguing with each other (bigdave)

It takes two to argue. I was just discussing my opinions, and in fact I was the only one who was responding to your direct requests.

You have discounted everything that disagreed with your opinion, even if it was published by Google, when you claimed that you wouldn't believe it without a reference from google directly.

Yau are telling people with several PR6+ sites and meet with google representitives, that they do not know what they are talking about in regards to PR, when you have yet to get your site indexed.

We can all state lot's of statements, but if we can't even agree on them, googles wins I'm afraid.

Google has been winning for too long I think. We need
to set up a positive think tank - not argue opinions forever. We all lose out that way.

This should be the first attitude to change. If you consider it to be a competition with google, you WILL lose. You will spend all your time trying to "beat" google, and you will probably do something that they do not approve of.

I consider Google to be my friend. It is the site that sends me the vast majority of my traffic. Instead of beating Google, it is my goal to give Google what it wants.

How do I know what Google wants? I pay attention to their "wish wash". I read what has been written by those on this list who have been at this much longer than I have, and have proven track records, and do it without cheating.

I even listen to those with experience that I disagree with, and I have even been known to change my opinion on some things. And I don't agree with every opinion of those that I mostly agree with.

I have pointed out those place where I thought you were at least close to getting it right, and I have pointed out those places where I knew you were wrong, and I have pointed out where there wasn't much point in doing what you were trying to do. The only one that you ever responded directly to was where I said you got it mostly right.

I really like the idea of Google wins and I win.

By the way, having been a member of several think tanks, I can tell you that arguing opinions is the way you filter out the bad opinions and let the good ones float to the top.

ciml




msg:181505
 6:22 pm on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

The Subtle Knife:
> Likely probability? Vote? We need something.

When you've spent enough time here you'll begin learn who has experience in each area. That will help you read their posts in context. Just like PageRank, one vote from a highly experienced member on TopicX may be worth more than several votes from less experienced members on TopicX.

The "Most Reliable way to speed up getting PageRank" is to get links from pages that have PageRank. Really, it's that simple. Oh, and you need to wait one, or two updates from the time you get the link.

billg51, if you use PHP to produce HTML then you're fine.

The Subtle Knife




msg:181506
 2:00 am on Feb 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

The "Most Reliable way to speed up getting PageRank" is to get links from pages that have PageRank. Really, it's that simple. Oh, and you need to wait one, or two updates from the time you get the link.

Ok, I want a page rank of 1, after the next dance, i.e. after 7th March 2003.

What the * exact * minimum I have to do? Assume I have build good common sense sites.

get one link one one page with page rank of 1?

We need hard facts, why the hell can't we agree on anything here I just don't know!

All this moon talk just makes a mockery of this forum - stop it. This is serious s**t. Any care to look at the figure of money overture paid Fast and Altavista.

Honestly I despair sometimes.

The Subtle Knife




msg:181507
 2:03 am on Feb 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

So for now, using the original algorithm in conjunction with "gut" feelings, based on our experiences as far as those changes, is probably our best bet.

OK, can we just write down our gut feeling and agree on them, even give them a group vote and probability.

Is that too much to ask for?

A public open source set of gut feelings, we can all edit - a summary of wisdom so far.
Can people please respond with - yes that makes sense, let's contribute?

I can then set up a wiki.

oh and big dave please don't get to personal - I need positive action. *ACTION* not more rebuttals.

By the way, having been a member of several think tanks, I can tell you that arguing opinions is the way you filter out the bad opinions and let the good ones float to the top.

great let's create a new one called "how google works" and filter out these forums for starters with concrete knowledge. 12 month's strategies are a waste of time for getting into google. We need to get serious.

When you've spent enough time here you'll begin learn who has experience in each area. That will help you read their posts in context. Just like PageRank, one vote from a highly experienced member on TopicX may be worth more than several votes from less experienced members on TopicX.

We don't have time to cross reference every post in context, and create a vote list in me head.
Let's create a real vote list we can all quicky see of rules and axioms, which are public and can be updated by anyone.

The Subtle Knife




msg:181508
 2:12 am on Feb 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

>Google is able to index many file types.
>Now, I didn't see PHP listed on it. Was this just missed on the FAQ, or does Google not index PHP?
Google indexes php! That's a fact - not wish wash!

It this kind of post that wastes time and generally cheeses me off, all my sites are PHP. So we need
a cheat sheet, a set of publicly voted rules/axioms/gut feelings, which are open source.

Otherwise we go in circles, and never actually move forward, the poster of the question should be able to read a cheat sheet (1-3) pages - so they know by peer voting what's right and what's wrong.

surely, you must get what I'm going on about by now?

kovacs




msg:181509
 2:19 am on Feb 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

Have your read the links that have been posted in this thread? Have you read all the original academic papers posted here and elsewhere? And have you used the search engine? Have you looked this up in Google?

To the best of my knowledge, every incoming link will essentially send the target page a PR of (PR of page linking to you)/(number of links on that page)*(decay factor, quoted as 0.85 in the Stanford papers). It is almost impossible to figure out in advance what your PR will be ahead of time because of all the factors outside your control - the number of links on the pages linking to you, the PR transmitted to those pages from the pages linking to them, and so forth - and the recursive nature of PR calculation. The best strategy is just to keep on adding quality content to your site and seeking high PR incoming links with good anchor text. It really is that easy.

What makes you think that the update will be over my March 7?

A "summary of the wisdom so far" can easily be found with research in the archived threads on this board via the search engine, and most of the questions you are asking have been discussed ad nauseam.

It sounds very much like you want to have the answers handed to you on a platter, and to try to spam your way to the top as quickly as possible, rather than looking at long term strategies for quality, consistent traffic. If you do want to spam, then by all means go ahead, but be aware that you are going up against the best in the world - and they are people who actually do bother to do their own research.

Chris_D




msg:181510
 2:22 am on Feb 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

The subtle knife wrote at the outset of this thread
"I assume google was unable to calculate an accurate page rank and gave up until the next google dance lark."

So TSK - if you want to get a PR1 - tell us what incoming links you have from other domains?

PR is about incoming links - and NOT about words on your webpage.

So here are some specific questions for you:
1. What does the google toolbar tell you your homepage pagerank is? Is it a whitebar or greybar?
2. What links from other domains have you acquired so far? 3. What is the pagerank of the pages that link to you?
4. Are you listed in Yahoo! or DMOZ?

My suggestion is that you firstly understand what you are asking of this community - we can't help you if you tell us nothing about what you have already done/ not done. Because - if you haven't yet got any links - and have no plan to get some - you'll still be PR0 this time next year!

Stefan




msg:181511
 2:36 am on Feb 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

"...when you have yet to get your site indexed."

You said it, BigDave.

Knife, have you realized that yet?

This 55 message thread spans 2 pages: 55 ( [1] 2 > >
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