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trading links PR
what makes good links trading
chris




msg:138568
 3:52 pm on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)


hi, i recently traded with a website they have
a PR=4 with 17 links, my website PR=5 2 links

the website i'm trading with will this help me
to get better ranking, i know it won't help my PR
i'm thinking of ending the link trade with this website
would that be a good idea?

thank you

 

hakre




msg:138569
 3:59 pm on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

you mean you do a trade without getting a plus out of it and that's why you're ending it?

fathom




msg:138570
 4:05 pm on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hi chris, a little subjective here.

It will boost PageRank "slightly" and may or may not affect ranking. Ranking is dependent on many things, such as "link anchors", "relevancy" to the search query, and among other things how competitive the pages above are.

If competition is extremely tight (not much difference between existing ranked paged) then possibly.

Also a single link might not make any difference if competitive pages are also adding inbound links. You could in effect lose ranked position if sites below add 10 links to your one, or receive better link anchor text if one for one link is added.

[edited by: fathom at 4:05 pm (utc) on Feb. 22, 2003]

chris




msg:138571
 4:05 pm on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

yes, because if i have too many links on my website
then i'll have a harder time in the future to trade with good quality websites.

they have so many links i do think it will help me
and i put a banner on my links page which take a lot of place.

chris




msg:138572
 4:07 pm on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

i meant to say above i don't think i will help my website.

hakre




msg:138573
 4:12 pm on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

chris,

i would them out. if it's a trade and not a friendly link, then don't count on them too much.

chris




msg:138574
 4:16 pm on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

thanks hakre & fantom

your replys where very helpfull

it made it easier to choose what i should do.

o0_cops_0o




msg:138575
 4:38 pm on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have a new site with no PR yet because it hasent been indexed. I have managed to get link exchanges with PR's as high as 6 (all links have related content) Im just glad they dont think the same way you do or i would #%^@$!..lol

mbennie




msg:138576
 6:42 pm on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

My links page is a PR5. I will link to any site that has quality related content.

It's not a open air vegetable market in Saigon, It's a simple link exchange.

Why do so many people seem to think it's all negotiation and worry so much about whether or not they're getting the better end of the deal?

fathom




msg:138577
 7:21 pm on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

yes, because if i have too many links on my website
then i'll have a harder time in the future to trade with good quality websites.

they have so many links i do think it will help me
and i put a banner on my links page which take a lot of place.

Im just glad they dont think the same way you do or i would #%^@$!..lol

Why do so many people seem to think it's all negotiation and worry so much about whether or not they're getting the better end of the deal?

Agree o0_cops_0o & mbennie

Personally I link to anyone who wishes to exchange links. In some cases these are PR0 pages (not because of a penalty -- just not enough on page PR to register).

What an exchange is today has nothing to do with tomorrow. A year from now those links could PR7's PR8's or more.

seem foolish to look at only todays value, when tomorrow has so much promise.

BTW I don't normally use "link" page to display a link... they go to the most appropriate page to be on.

Seem strange to have a page about links... if your site is about cars. ;)

HeyJim




msg:138578
 4:28 am on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

Fathom said:
"Personally I link to anyone who wishes to exchange links. In some cases these are PR0 pages (not because of a penalty -- just not enough on page PR to register).

What an exchange is today has nothing to do with tomorrow. A year from now those links could PR7's PR8's or more.

seem foolish to look at only todays value, when tomorrow has so much promise."

Please excuse the method of quoting. Don't know how to place it in a box. But...

Thanks for what you've said above. Just because that's always my philosophy but I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone who really knows what they're talking about (as opposed to me!) who feels the same way.

PR8's probably aren't going to link to me but some of the PR1's and 2's I'm linking to now will some day be 7's and 8's. I invest in links for many reasons. This is just one reason.

By the way, how does one tell the difference between a 0 that's a penalty and 0 that's just not high enough to be a 1? I don't think I can tell from the tool bar.

aspdesigner




msg:138579
 4:57 am on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hey HeyJim (LOL)

I will take PR into consideration, but I am more concerned about the "quality" of the site. I tend to be somewhat selective in my linking, this tends to improve the perceived "quality" of my site, as well as avoid the low-end "FFA" look.

That is not to say if I had a chance to trade links with a PR8, I wouldn't spend more time trying to do it!

With regards to PR0's, my advice would be to avoid them, it's just not worth the risk. Unless it's a brand-new site, a site with ANY decent inbound links should manage to have at least a PR1.

fathom




msg:138580
 5:01 am on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

For all the talk... penalties are actually rare, so in most cases a leap of faith is all that's needed. Rarer still is a penalty actually passed on to uninformed sites. In most cases a small bit of PageRank is left -- not enough to register on the tool bar, just enough to avoid affecting large networks un-related sites, but...

if you have a screen capturing tool which captures high resolutions screenshots and an image processor, you can blow the bar up near screen size and take a look. If a little bit of green exists -- no problem.

A look at the source code (mainpage) will usually show if a site owner has some idea of optimizing.

the orginal [142.176.232.90]

A PR0 Page [142.176.232.90] but not really.

If no capture or image processor -- A look at the source code (mainpage) will usually show if a site owner has some idea of optimizing. Generally if PR0 - but site looks like a non-graphical work has been done to the code there is probably a problem.

Check DMOZ search with the URL - if there, and PR in Category again a probable problem.

Another check type URL in Google first check links none... go to AllTheWeb type in URL probably there will be links click through on a few -- if some PR exists - there is a reason the site does not show any.

[edited by: fathom at 5:14 am (utc) on Feb. 23, 2003]

AthlonInside




msg:138581
 5:02 am on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

- I have link partners who link to me in 1 page turn to linking to me in all its pages when they redesign their site!

- I have link partners who have a big link farm breaking their site to more categories one day giving a better page rank votes.

- I have link partners who only reply my mail 1 month later telling me they have added my link! Because I am passion enough to wait for them.

The points are
- Don't be rude to your link partners, they are you friends.
- Competitor in the same area could easily become friend when you help each other with link exchange.
- Not everybody are sitting beside their computer checking email every day to see if some one wants to exchange links with them.

aspdesigner




msg:138582
 6:06 am on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

My experience has been that PR0'd pages are fairly common, the vast majority of link exchange requests I have received from PR0 sites tend to be from "link farm" sites that appear to have been penalized.

The problem is with how a search engine determines the active paticipants in a link farm. Targetting sites a link farm links to is not fair, as you have no control over who links to you. The prevailing thought is that cross-linking may be used to identify the guilty parties, as this requires active participation by both parties.

If you cross-link with link farm sites, you are in danger of getting "caught up in the net" and having an automatic penalty applied to your own site.

fathom




msg:138583
 6:48 am on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

Targetting sites a link farm links to is not fair, as you have no control over who links to you.

This part matters not - a banned/penalized site linking to you can not harm you -- you must link to them -- and you have total control over that.

PR0 pages are extremely common but not penalize pages. Banned sites/penalized sites/pages are about as common a PR10/PR9 pages.

But here's a scenerio a single page in a site is penalized - that page links the a link farm (not the whole site) but -- that page is in a link structure that has most of the pages in that site pointing to it - thus a vote for that page (a bad page if you will) and these other pages all get penalized.

The site has a links page which some of these links are reciprocal thus all the pages pointing to this site are voting for pages of this site (bad pages) thus penalized.

Each of these pages are in a link structure -- all pages penalized - and a links page with some reciprocal...

Sounds like a conspiracy to me. In fact rarely does it actually snowball. Normally the linking page gets zapped and that's it.

If you link to a bad neighborhood -- yes a penalty can occur - but that doesn't mean this is often, adding 10,000 link farms is rather small -- rather rare against 3+ billion pages that are indexable (and good pages).

What's more all those PR0 pages - don't normally get indexed so how many actual good pages are out there that just haven't enough PageRank to go around? Darn site more that penalty ones!

Your experience, my experience and everyone else experience here at WebmasterWorld is still a very small amount of pages viewed.

Although difficult to actually show now DMOZ.org's Link Pop Cat was penalized two months ago - now PR2

www.dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Web_Design_and_Development/Promotion/Tools/ PR0 but is it? Looks can be deceiving [142.176.232.90]

This stops that snowball effect. Or DMOZ would be a bad site, right?

aspdesigner




msg:138584
 7:39 am on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)


This part matters not - a banned/penalized site linking to you can not harm you -- you must link to them -- and you have total control over that.

That was my point, if you exchange links with them, then that is exactly what you are doing.

My own experience would disagree with the "rarity" of such sites. Perhaps I am just lucky enough that these rare PR0'd sites all want to trade links with me?

A link farm ranking penalty is not like a manual perm ban. Back in the days when link farms were running rampant, Google was known to have developed filters to automatically take care of this.

However, lately the most common PR0 penalty I have seen has actually been the example you described. For example, a site with a PR5 home page, a direct link from this PR5 home page to a Zeus "themed" link area, and all of these link pages are PR0d. No convolution of PR calculations would seem to account for such a dramatic drop in PR, other than an imposed penalty. (They wanted to exchange links with me, BTW. No thanks!)

I've actually seen more of this sort of thing with automated Zeus-generated themed sites, I was beginning to wonder if Google had added a filter specifically for this product!

hakre




msg:138585
 9:39 am on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

switching back into this discussion i just wanted to write down that i have to underline the term _linktrade_. personally i do very very less link trading and make link exchange with pages on a friendly and fair basis, not keeping an eye on the pr of my or that site. and in normal webmaster life, i think links are made not for the search engines, they are made for surfin people. :)

the web still grows everyday, so a searchengine isn't the only way to find the pearls in this ocean.

annej




msg:138586
 2:20 pm on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

make link exchange with pages on a friendly and fair basis, not keeping an eye on the pr of my or that site

That is what I've been doing. They are all at least somewhat related to my site and have other 'widgeting' links on thier link page. I hope google looks at the fact they are related links more than their PR.

Anne

tennismaster




msg:138587
 4:02 pm on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

Aspdesigner,

It is generally accepted that if a ZEUS generated directory
has the page named `themeindex` there is a high chance that
it has a penalty from google.
This usually only affects the `themeindex` pages though,
and the rest of the site usually remains the same.

TM

kfander




msg:138588
 5:39 pm on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

Let's not forget that the PR3 site that you're refusing to link to this month may be a PR6 site or higher in a couple of months, and your site will still be there.

Dante_Maure




msg:138589
 8:51 pm on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

My own experience would disagree with the "rarity" of such sites. Perhaps I am just lucky enough that these rare PR0'd sites all want to trade links with me?

I've actually seen more of this sort of thing with automated Zeus-generated themed sites, I was beginning to wonder if Google had added a filter specifically for this product!

Google's "Zeus Filter" has long been observed as tennismaster pointed out. Ban the Zeus bot from spidering your pages and I guarantee that the frequency of penalty based PR0 link page requests will drop off dramatically.

rlrouse




msg:138590
 11:35 pm on Feb 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

Dante_Maure: How do you "ban" the Zeus bot? What would you add to the robots.txt file?

tennismaster




msg:138591
 12:03 am on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

I added

User-agent: zeus
Disallow: /

to my robot txt and it does not spider my site any more.

TM

rlrouse




msg:138592
 12:21 am on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

Thanks tennismaster!

fathom




msg:138593
 12:23 am on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

Google's "Zeus Filter" has long been observed as tennismaster pointed out. Ban the Zeus bot from spidering your pages and I guarantee that the frequency of penalty based PR0 link page requests will drop off dramatically.

Although banning rogue bots reduces bandwidth, and stops your pages from display elsewhere without your permission - I don't see how the "ban bot" is robot.txt bears any difference on you being penalized or not.

You can not be penalized for others linking to you - you can only be penalized by you linking to them. The bot is irrelevant.

tennismaster




msg:138594
 1:04 am on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

I think the banning of Zeus from your site was mentioned
only to stop getting link requests from Zeus sites which
may have a penalty.

TM

fathom




msg:138595
 2:15 am on Feb 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

ahhh... now that makes sense! :)

Dante_Maure




msg:138596
 10:14 am on Feb 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

What he said. ;)

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