| 3:27 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Ask your client to give you an example of a successful ecommerce site that uses 100% flash... That'll stump 'em.
| 3:32 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
FAST is now searching flash sites. Maybe your client will get lucky and the other search engines will start to follow suit. It should only be a matter of time.
| 3:32 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
It's true but all they want is their flash site ranked highly, not intrested in anything else!
Could the idea of optimising the flash detection page with plenty of good content, title tags etc + point all backward links to this page work? Seems a bit to easy, the only down side I can see is that they will only be able to optimise one page for keywords not the whole site! (O and it could be seen as spam by competitiors?)
| 3:33 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Nothing wrong with Flash but at least try to get the client to approve a HTML version for those who don't have or don't like Flash.
If thats a no go then at least get a HTML page which tells them all the great things the site offers with the option to download it.
| 3:34 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Could you not suggest a comprimise?
A few pages of decent HTML content that leads to the Flash?
| 3:40 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
They are a very poncy company and are convinced that if anyone sees HTML and their company together they will be marked!
Could somone please tell me if my flash detection optimisation idea has any merit at all?
| 3:44 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
I don't think it would- if you used a meta refresh then I seem to remember Google not being very happy with these- perhaps someone more technical can step in here...
| 4:24 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
meta refresh? I'm 100% none techie (marketing geek!)
I have acheived high position with a similar technique on another site (see profile) but the difference was the option to enter the site rather than an instant redirect for those with flash.
| 4:33 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Alternatively have a html index page with all the necessary stuff, and tweak the Flash detection script to supply the Flash version to enabled browsers.
Bots happy, client happy.
| 4:36 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
You might be able to register another domain, and pull the Flash thing in with a 100% frame, then throw no frames content in it.
Definately not an ideal solution but it would give the bots a little something to look at.
| 4:52 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Don't use meta refresh this is considered spam.
But can't you mix a little HTML text in CSS and make the client happy. the site will definitely have problems ranking high because the crawlers will have problems seeing the site's pages. It will look like a one page site and without text. I always tell clients to avoid flash unless they give the user the opinion of an HTML version. Why do your clients hate HTML?
| 4:55 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
|Could the idea of optimising the flash detection page with plenty of good content, title tags etc |
I have my doubts about the efficacy of having one little page, flashing it's leg so to speak, trying to hitchike on the information highway. However, it seems to me that having lots of content and lots of pages is the way to go.
It also seems that you're getting cornered into saying what the boss wants you to say. Don't. They're paying for what you know. Be up front and tell them. As edit_g so wisely pointed out, ask them to show you a successful flash ecommerce site. This is the kind of smarts you're paid for.
When it comes to seo, and I'm just starting out, I have found that educating the client is a big part of what I do. But they respect you for it when you can back up your words with documentation and examples from the web, such as showing them PR Zero sites that practice the bad seo the client is insisting on. Or the Google TOS that forbids automated querying. That sort of thing.
[edited by: martinibuster at 5:15 pm (utc) on Nov. 5, 2002]
| 4:58 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
I had exactly the same scenario a few weeks back.
Did a hidden div and warned the client repeatedly that if their competitors choose to report them they could be hot water....
Needless to say they rank well now, but it really is a bit of a crap situation. I'm always rather unhappy about this sort of thing but can't afford to turn down the work ;)
| 5:00 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Macromedia give you Flash Detection, just play with the way it works a little :)
| 5:12 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
create an folder called noflash, and create a basic.html version of the site. Then create a index frameset 0,100% then and use the noframes tag to direct none flash browser like google to the content.
| 5:14 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Going to have another chat with the client on friday!
| 5:14 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Neat solution DaveN ;)
| 5:18 pm on Nov 5, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Just wanted to point out that Hillman Curtis, the PREEMINENT flash guru, uses html on his site.
How much clearer can the importance of html versus flash be?
| 1:26 pm on Nov 6, 2002 (gmt 0)|
One last thought, Dino_M. You might also mention to your client that most folks still use some kind of dialup modem to surf the web. Flash can take a long time to download and cause lots of folks to get bored and leave the site before they've seen what your client has to offer.
This could be a strong argument in favor of having a non-flash alternative for the site.
Either way, good luck on Friday!
| 1:44 pm on Nov 6, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Their argument is the flash site they have gives them a very proffesional loking site. They offer a very high end very expensive very elitist service, if the clients do not have broad band, then there's a very high chance they are not the kind of client they are looking for! Not saying I agree but..
| 5:10 pm on Nov 6, 2002 (gmt 0)|
You said your doing flash detection before they hit the flash data.. what are you doing with them if they don't have flash?
A client, before he met me, paid 30k for a 100% flash site. They already had a (horrible [shivers just thinking about it]) html version. I just can't describe how bad this site was on every level, from bad coding to mis-matched font, to horrible color choices. They Liked it! I could clean the coding and font as long as visually it was basically the same - big whoop. Anyways.. they wanted a 'splash' page (something else that gives me the shivers not in a good way) to give people the choice of HTML or Flash.. at least they understood that.. and it was to contain - get this - a .jpg of the flash interface with slight modifications (such as 'choose flash or html'). There's only so far alt text will go :/ So I slapped some text 'below the fold' that was visable. That's about all I could do.. where they could only be found by direct url searching before, they grabbed 1-5 on quite a few targeted terms after. Fortunately it's a pretty niche market and not alot of competition - and what is there doesn't seem to know the benefits of SEO yet ;P
| 5:25 pm on Nov 6, 2002 (gmt 0)|
If they don't got flash I believe they get a large blank screen! I want to use this screen to put a super optimised page/site on i.e. <H1> <H2> tags loads of text good keyword use etc etc.
If you've got flash you never see this page and leap straight to the falsh if you haven't you see the text page which should still be usefull ( I hope they get more business from this page than their thousands of dollars flash site!)
I was just concerned that the robots would not read the page and I would be wasting my time but as robots don't have flash installed they should read this page!
| 6:50 pm on Nov 6, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Good incoming links with keyword phrases in the link text will help. I have a site with Flash navigation. For a certain search term it never really ranked but we got 2 links with good relevant link text using the certain search term and it went to #5 this update.
| 11:17 am on Nov 15, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Re hidden div
Is this considfered a trick?
Surely you decide what size a layer should show at?
| 11:24 am on Nov 15, 2002 (gmt 0)|
If you cram a hidden DIV with lots of keywords, or other such party tricks then it can be seen as spam, I think thats what Nick_W meant, sure he'll say if otherwise :)
| 11:25 am on Nov 15, 2002 (gmt 0)|
If you don't care about page weight you can use put the flash in a layer and place another layer below that with all the content and links in there.
| 11:37 am on Nov 15, 2002 (gmt 0)|
>It's true but all they want is their flash site ranked highly, not intrested in anything else!
Simple. Tell the client that when Google sees a flash home page, they take that as evidence the site is junk and rank it very low. Then explain if they insist on using flash, while they will be near impossible to find using Google, they could try a massive television advertising campaign to compensate. Then point out how you can save them a fortune by just ditching the flash page. ;)
| 11:47 am on Nov 15, 2002 (gmt 0)|
DaveN that looks like the option i'm going for, they obviously don't care about page weight as it's got more animation than the shriek cartoon.
One problem I'm having is contolling how the hyperlinks work throught the flash, how do you controll if they are active through the flash or not?
I have a transparent section I would like the link to work on that page but not the rest of it!
| 12:00 pm on Nov 15, 2002 (gmt 0)|
|Simple. Tell the client that when Google sees a flash home page, they take that as evidence the site is junk and rank it very low. |
Although I tend to believe that 100% flash "may" have certain informative value when used as informative, the above statement is fairly accurate if you are attempting to sell something.
Flash can be a very effective motivator, but 100% Flash means your motivator is sell "Flash Technology" and "Flash Designing". If this is the case I would suggest:
CSS2 would allow you to layer text underneath the flash -- I suppose that this could be similar to "alt" for an image... is it spam? Not as long as it represents the flash content.
If your client is selling anything else -- they really need to take a hard long look at exactly what is their primary business (products/services) "unique selling points" (USP) are.
If this doesn't include "Flash Design" they are motivating the wrong markets and SEO practices of any kind isn't going to help.
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