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This 37 message thread spans 2 pages: 37 ( [1] 2 > >     
pr 7 and still in the second page
#1 is pr 5 what are we missing?
hudson




msg:167434
 11:42 am on Oct 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi, we can't make it to the first page although we
got the highest PR in the search result,and we got the
key word in the title wile the sites above us got the
"key word" spread randomly over the page and not in the title.

and It's not anchor text in inbound links ,cause most of the sites
above us got nothing to do with the search term, so 100%
they don't have the keywords in there inbound links.

Any idea what we missing, we thought that if u got the "key word"
in the title and u got the highest PR u will rank #1 (when anchor text doesn't
play a role )?

 

dazz




msg:167435
 11:48 am on Oct 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

its just not that easy im afraid! There are apparently over 100 things google looks at to rank a page for a certain search term. PR and Title being 2 of the main ones but there are many others.....keyword near top of page, keyword density etc.

zeus




msg:167436
 1:28 pm on Oct 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

You is just a part of the ranking and some just offer to much time to get a good PR.

I have site that are listed before a PR8 site, mine is PR5, you have to think about you page as 1 big page and then do some optimation, but do not over due it.

zeus

Bernie




msg:167437
 1:52 pm on Oct 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

did you also check the inbound-links of your competitor's site with ATW? >> google's backlink function does not show all inbound links.

[alltheweb.com...] the synthax is:
link.all:http://www.yourcompetitordomain.com

martinibuster




msg:167438
 2:30 pm on Oct 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Do not overdo it

Very true.

One thing I'm interested in, is if you checked the Google cache. If you check the Google cache you may often find that part of the reason for it's ranking is because of inbound links.

[edited by: martinibuster at 2:59 pm (utc) on Oct. 15, 2002]

hudson




msg:167439
 2:56 pm on Oct 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Zeus: the density of the 2 word pharse is less than 2%, so we are not over do it.

Bernie: its not inbound links , couse most of the site above me got nothing to do with the search term

Martinibuster: what exacly should I look for in the cache?

Jakpot




msg:167440
 3:20 pm on Oct 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

How, when, where, who, why, how much?
If anyone knows they aren't telling.

mosley700




msg:167441
 3:32 pm on Oct 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

This topic is interesting. My PR6 page is on tenth in the serps for a two-word keyword. The page title contains the two letter keyword, and on the page itself the keyword appears several times. Other pages point to that page with the precise two-word keyword as anchor text.
Even at that, I'm tenth for that two word search. The pages above me all have lower PR - mostly PR4's, but also a few PR3's.. With my higher PR, I should be the top listing, but I'm not...PR could be like the wedding band a lonely old maid wears year after year, even though she's never been married and never gonna be married. It looks nice, but not meaningful in the long run...

hudson




msg:167442
 3:40 pm on Oct 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Mosley700: so if its not PR, and not the Title and not the Anchor Text, what else is there?

Jakpot: If u dont ask, u will never know unless you have allready hit the jackpot

martinibuster




msg:167443
 3:45 pm on Oct 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

I was purposely vague because I wanted to speak in general terms. I'll be a little more explicit.

In regard to overdoing it, it could be as simple as having your complete phrase simultaneously in your title, description, and H1.

If you look at the average search result, I've observed that oftentimes Google prefers a bit in the title, the rest in the description and body. This has the effect of filtering out consciously and deliberately "optimized" sites.

Please do not take my word for it. Do your own searches and analyze the results. This is the only way of diagnosing what's going on for your keywords.

In other searches Google seems to prefer the complete term in the title. I suspect that this is only when the phrase is not too competitive.

zeus




msg:167444
 10:39 pm on Oct 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

hudson, the body text is not that important, but 2% is maybe to little, take 5% thats good and ones again see your whole web site as 1 big page. Do like martinbuster says a little here and there thats good.

Damn it very late now have to go

good night

zeus

ciml




msg:167445
 6:02 pm on Oct 16, 2002 (gmt 0)

hudson; although you have more PR than the people above you, do they have more backlinks (or backlinks from more domains)?

Just a thought.

hudson




msg:167446
 7:19 pm on Oct 16, 2002 (gmt 0)

cimil, I've got more then double backlinks then the sites that are above me I think that my problom is over optimize, it seams that Google doesnt like it, and they are looking more for an "un touch by SEO " sites ...

if once u are marked can u take it off?

and is it possiblle to know in any way

billy_t9




msg:167447
 8:43 pm on Oct 16, 2002 (gmt 0)

Also mind the theming that your page and the whole site has.
A more specific (smaller) category sometimes gain more than a broaden and bigger category.

Bernie




msg:167448
 10:39 pm on Oct 16, 2002 (gmt 0)

what have you exactly done on that specific page (i guess index)? e.g. how many times positioned the keyword? where in the text? (position, format) and did you do any don'ts like hidden text, etc.?

one more question: do your competitors above you in the serp have the specific keyword you are optimising for in the anchor-text of their inbound-links more often than you have?

Grumpus




msg:167449
 11:00 pm on Oct 16, 2002 (gmt 0)

Google seems to hate this:

blah blah keyword blah keyword blah blah blah keyword
<LOTS OF BLAH BLAH>

Google seems to like this:
blah blah keyword blah keyword blah blah blah keyword
<SOME MORE BLAH BLAH>
blah blah keyword blah keyword blah blah blah keyword
<SOME MORE BLAH BLAH>
blah blah keyword blah keyword blah blah blah keyword

See how the keywords in the second example are spread throughout the page. That means that a lot of the page is about the keyword, rather than just the title and the first paragraph (or that hidden text gobbed up at the bottom).

Google likes the keywords to appear in order on the page. Keyword 1 should be in the title, but keyword 2 can be halfway down the page, but if keyword 2 is in the title and then keyword2 appears on the page, and keyword 1 appears next and keyword2 doesn't appear on the page again, you ain't gonna rank well.

Then of course, there's overall proximity to each other, and about a million other factors.

G.

hudson




msg:167450
 8:00 pm on Oct 17, 2002 (gmt 0)

Grumpus, it seems that u are right , Google likes a hole lot of BLAH BLAH BLAH
its a sad day, that we need to fill up our site with junk in order to please google

Bernie




msg:167451
 8:16 pm on Oct 17, 2002 (gmt 0)

its a sad day, that we need to fill up our site with junk in order to please google

IMHO it's quality content that google likes. I am interested to hear about the results of your trial though. You may post and let us know. :-) TIA.

Grumpus




msg:167452
 8:26 pm on Oct 17, 2002 (gmt 0)

I'm not particularly saying that you should have "fluff". I used the word "Blah" to show lots of text. The point of my message is that google likes to see the keywords spread over the whole page. If they are just at the top of the page, then google assumes that only the top of the page is about it. If they are all at the bottom, it's the bottom of the page. If they are spread througout, then the WHOLE page must be about it and is therefore inherently more relevant than a page that only has the keywords in one area of it.

G.

Bernie




msg:167453
 8:58 pm on Oct 17, 2002 (gmt 0)

thanks grumpus,
that makes sense and is more understandable.

Darichman




msg:167454
 9:25 pm on Oct 17, 2002 (gmt 0)

I'm not sure if this is true or not but I think Google rank's sites not only by how many links point at you but I suspect they also count the percentage of new recip links they find this month compared to how many new links they found last month.

If they find more new reciprocal links pointing at your page this month than they found last month then your rank would get a boost.

Which is kinda like a growth percentage algorythm that gives you a boost if your site suddenly get's alot of recip links.

The reason I suspect this is because I build many new sites and when I do build one I go out and trade links with 100 - 200 sites right away by sending out a newsletter telling my existing link partners about the new site.

When google indexes the new site it get's great rankings right away because of all the recip links google finds. Then the next few indexes the rankings drop way down the list even though the PR of the pages never drops and the recip link count are the same or more as the first month the site was indexed.

So that makes me think that the site got a huge boost because of the hundreds of links google finds the first month. Then when google spiders the second month it finds alot less new links pointing at it so the new recip percentage was alot lower which makes the ranking's go down.

This is why I think google rank's a PR3 page higher than a PR6 page. Partly because the PR3 page is growing faster than the PR6 page because google found a higher percentage of "new" links pointing at the PR3 page than it did the PR6 page.

But then it could just be luck?

ikbenhet1




msg:167455
 9:30 pm on Oct 17, 2002 (gmt 0)


i'd like to add:

i have/had a similar problem.
I got higher pr then another site, but rank lower in SERP's than the other lower pr'd site.

After investigating, i discoverd the lower pr'd site has more pages linking to the site with the exact keyword in the link text to it.

He has a very large 'navigaton menu' with links to all pages on all pages of his site. That gives hem rank boost for the linktext's in this navigation menu.

Grumpus




msg:167456
 9:33 pm on Oct 17, 2002 (gmt 0)

I think a new site gets a boost just because it's new. Every site I've put up (regardless of the incoming links) debuted at one PR higher than it got the following month. I think when an entire site is new, it someone comes up with a Guess as to what the base PR of the site will maybe be. (It needs to do this in order to determine how deep to crawl and other things). <shrug> Not sure, though.

G.

hiker_jjw




msg:167457
 11:12 pm on Oct 17, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hudson,

What about out-going links (or links on the page)? Everyone seems to be concentrating on incomming links. GoogleGuy has specifically mentioned two links on the page need to be focused on the page keywords.

Just a thought.

Yidaki




msg:167458
 4:49 pm on Oct 18, 2002 (gmt 0)

GoogleGuy has specifically mentioned two links on the page need to be focused on the page keywords.

hiker_jjw, do you remember the thread where GoogleGuy mentioned that? I'd be interested ...

hiker_jjw




msg:167459
 7:06 pm on Oct 18, 2002 (gmt 0)

Looking back at it... I can't seem to find that thread. Do a search for GoogleGuy, maybe you can find it. I appologize for not being able to quote the exact thread.

On the topic of "on page links", just look at some of the "top" SERPS for your competitive keywords. I've notice that some sites/pages use H2 or H1 keyword "links" on their pages. This seems to push them far up the ranking, but may be considered spam.

If you stop and think about what the "page's theme" means to Google, it only makes sense that Google would look at not only the page content (keywords in -> title, description, heading, urls, bold, italic, once high in the page, etc.) but the keywords links on that page. I believe that Google puts some importance (if not a lot) on these "on-theme" links. I don't believe they have to be external links, but that is pure speculation at this point. Keep external links to the page theme and use only when necessary, IMHO.

Black Knight




msg:167460
 7:26 pm on Oct 18, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi, we can't make it to the first page although we got the highest PR in the search result,and we got the key word in the title wile the sites above us got the "key word" spread randomly over the page and not in the title.

and It's not anchor text in inbound links ,cause most of the sites above us got nothing to do with the search term, so 100% they don't have the keywords in there inbound links.

Have you taken a comparison look at your directory listings in ODP and Yahoo?

Remember, the point of PageRank is that not all links are equal. They don't have to have more links, nor higher PR than you... they could beat you because they have less links, with one or two very important pages using the keywords in the link.

Has their domain name got relevant keywords in it? If it does, it is almost certain that link text on most sites will contain the same keywords, regardless of topical differences.

Do you mention all your keywords the same number of times? Google always seems to reward a disparity, where for a two-word phrase, one of the words appears on the top pages far more often than the other.

gilmit




msg:167461
 8:45 pm on Oct 18, 2002 (gmt 0)

IMHO it's quality content that google likes.

It's just a serach engine. It does not like or dislike content because it cannot, as of yet, differentiate between quality content and other things.

hiker_jjw




msg:167462
 11:26 pm on Oct 18, 2002 (gmt 0)

Check out the following article:

[searchengineworld.com...]

This is where the two out-going links quote came from.

PoorOldMe




msg:167463
 12:36 am on Oct 19, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi hiker_jjw

But that seems to have been written a while ago when outbound links were considered good. Now they are considered bad - or are they?

I raise this point only that I have seen a number of high ranking sites with outbound links on secondary, not their principle pages.

Can anyone add to that? And also, what is the current consensus on guest book links?

This 37 message thread spans 2 pages: 37 ( [1] 2 > >
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