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New Google News Look
Brett_Tabke




msg:43934
 10:44 pm on Sep 19, 2002 (gmt 0)

Google Has updated the look of it's news site.

[news.google.com...]

 

vik_c




msg:43964
 10:03 am on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Looks neat now, very comprehensive. All it needs now is a link to my web site :)

Lisa




msg:43965
 10:04 am on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I am still playing with the News search all the way into the wee hours of the night. I think this is the coolest thing since sliced bread. :) After all these weeks there is now a news tab. Finally now I can jump back and forth easily from the regular Google.

What will be the next tab? I think a search 'Local' would be nice! (zipcode/address analysis so Google can show only local sites)

chiyo




msg:43966
 10:10 am on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

OK I give in. I like it. Its a broader coverage than just CNN or CNBC, and still loads much faster

Googleguy. I really appreciate that you are indexing some of the independent and original news sources. Is this via RSS?

I did a search on news and found one of our recent items from our news service.

A thousand thankyou's I get bored of reading the same old rehashes of AP and Reuters rewritten by tired hacks. It makes for a very colorful service.

Now how do we make sure our news keeps in the index? Keep on updating as much as possible and keep up the quality?

This is my first (and possibly only!) news page from now on. And it's not just because we are in it! I hope it catches on and people see a international news coverage that goes beyond the establishment press.

Hugs and kisses.

[edited by: chiyo at 10:13 am (utc) on Sep. 23, 2002]

GoogleGuy




msg:43967
 10:11 am on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I'm up too late too, but it's just such an exciting new feature. Before I head out for the night, here's a quick tip you might not have noticed:

If you click on a section heading like Sci/Tech, you get a lot more stories in that category.

Enjoy playing with news!
GoogleGuy

digitalghost




msg:43968
 10:36 am on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I'd prefer no tabs at all and I still prefer Amphetadesk for news. Sorry Google, you can't touch my "news on speed" and the tabs are starting to make Google look, well, "portalish".

Sliced bread? Otto Frederick Rohwedder might disagree. After all, sliced bread was news worthy, at least in 1912.

I can still pick up more feeds faster with an RSS app than I can by clicking a tab and sorting through what yet another search engine deems most relevant to me in terms of news. To make the news search even vaguely interesting to me it has to be configurable, and that's another step toward Google becoming a portal. No thanks. I've seen this progression before, next it will be horoscope and local weather tabs followed by a "check your email" tab. ;)

chiyo




msg:43969
 10:54 am on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

But Brett and digitalghost, there are very very few people that have RSS apps, even here i would guess that very few have them and most wouldnt even know what RSS is.

I sure use these things, but that is because is becuase we have RSS feeds of our own. And for sure, I get great news headlines from things like AmphetaDesk, Newzcrawler, news-is-free etc and our own custom built pages using RSS on our own sites.

But now, I can get a far broader range of news (mainly using their news Search - the default page is quite US oriented and has too many categories of no interest to me) WITHOUT firing up an external application

Google is providing news to the average surfer, not to people like us. Google's understanding of the average surfer is a great part of it's brand. Most importantly, this is the first time a mainstream web property is indexing alternative news, and web only news sites of suitable quality. The list of sources may not be perfect or as inclusive as some would want, but heck, its a major step forward compared to the existing competitors in the Web based news market, including, with respect Brett, rocketnews...

To me it is a legitimate brand extension. The brand integrity is maintained or even reinforced. Google provides information with less commercial influence than other providers. Same for search. Same for news.

i dont believe Google would move to being a portal. There brand is "search". and searching current news can be part of it quite comfortably.

rubble88




msg:43970
 2:07 pm on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

A Brief Review of Google News as of Today
-----------------

What's New?
* Over 4000 English Language Sources. This is a MAJOR Increase to the List of Crawled Sources. Previously at about 100.
* Database Refreshed Every 15 Minutes.
* Tab to Google News Listed With the Other Google Tools (Web, Images, Groups, Directory)
* Layout Of Google News Home Page

What Continues?
* Clustering of Headlines on Similar Topic From Various Sources
* Ability to Sort Results by Relevance or Date

What's Not Available?
* Advanced Interface
* Non-English Language Content
*Ability to Limit from a Specific Source

Other Things To Know
*You Can Limit To Terms in the Title or Headline by Using the Syntax intitle:
*Material Archived for One Week, Then Purged From News Database

steveb




msg:43971
 2:17 pm on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I do a news search in my subject area every day using about thirty different sites including Google news. An excellent thing about Google news is that you can use the -symbol, like...
Britney Spears -Enquirer ...so for a high traffic terms you can filter out a specific publication. This is useful to me in that one "publication" gets indexed by Google News, and always shows as very recent like "3 hours ago" but is mostly worthless trash repeated over and over.

netcommr




msg:43972
 4:42 pm on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Google, Please put a link to your original interface! The best feature of your news used to be the ability to browse the news sources by locale. This is what set your news site apart from others. I don't want to just look at what others think are worthy of the front page, I want to be able to judge for myself.

When I was young and ignorant doing my duty and serving my country in the military, I was blessed with the ability to listen to just about anything transmitted over the air waves. I had my favorite frequencies I would listen to late at night, like the BBC, to intertain myself during slow times. The one thing I learned at that time was that different countries and different organizations would give you different information. I learned that CNN headlines will give you the hype, but the guy transmitting straight from the trenches of Tel Aviv will give you THE real story.

I want to search for my own news sources, please give that back to me. Don't follow the others, you had it right the first time! I won't use what you have now.

Please bring back the ability to browse to a publication of MY choice...

EliteWeb




msg:43973
 4:50 pm on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Just saw it, was searching for something and at the top in red letting it said New and told me to search google news for headlines dealing with my search.. :) Colors are well they're alright in my opinion. Not the greatest but doesnt hurt my neon green eyes.

joeblakesley




msg:43974
 5:05 pm on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I think this service is better than the alternatives and the colours are not that bad (although maybe they could be improved). The algorithms and the use of the range of news services to bring what the average user wants to know is more important than the colour. IMO the new google news site is even better than the beta one , and much easier to use than alternatives.

My 2 cents: Quick, easy and comprehensive,

Joe.

dvb_99




msg:43975
 5:29 pm on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

This new news section is very good, very detailed and very specific. Nice..very impressive...very much like google ;)

Nice Job Google! ;)

Everyman




msg:43976
 5:48 pm on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I think it may be time for that essay on the history of "creeping copyright violations" by Google.

Looks like a derivative work of copyrighted material to me. It deprives the original sites of their advertising by using their copyrighted material for a meta portal that's much more compelling.

We should have organized to stop the cache copies back when we all first started complaining about it. The only good news with this latest news format is that we may now be able to get some big web players to see our "little-guy webmaster" point of view.

Brad




msg:43977
 5:56 pm on Sep 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

>>Google, Please put a link to your original interface!

At the bottom of the current page is a link to "News Resources", I think that leads to the original interface with all the international news links. At least that is close to what I remember it being like.

I must say I do like the new news site too. It might replace my.Yahoo as my default start page. Nicely done.

mfagan




msg:43978
 1:56 am on Sep 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

Great improvements!

What's still needed:

Other languages, and news by region (area,country,state/province)

Sub-clustering: when an issue is linked to "and 1602 related" articles, they should be clustered within the cluster. Also, the sections "Business, Sci/Tech, Sports, Entertainment, Health " should have subdivisions.

Group search results by source.
Group search resutls by source region.

Each cluster should have an associtated image gallery (similar to NewsBlaster at Columbia U)

In the further future:
Auto-timelines of events?

Just some thoughts.

vitaplease




msg:43979
 4:40 am on Sep 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

Google figured something out how to choose which image to display from the original webpage. (not all images they show have alt-texts). If this is automated, somehow they know how to not choose advertisements.

Google must also have some kind of copyright waiver on these images.

Everyman




msg:43980
 12:55 pm on Sep 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

Google must also have some kind of copyright waiver on these images.

These are thumbnail images. The Ninth Circuit decided in Kelly v. Arriba (Feb. 6, 2002) that the lower resolution of thumbnail images constituted fair use.

I think the real issue with this news meta-portal will come into focus after the Beta, when Google starts showing ads. Already Yahoo is getting a little nervous about this new portal, according to a piece in today's New York Times.

Yahoo, which doesn't do any crawling, built up their news portal by negotiating permissions with news outlets -- at least that's the way it looks to me. Google crawls news sites that fail to disallow their crawling with robots.txt. This is the difference between the "express consent" required by copyright law, and the "opt out" required by Google. That same Ninth Circuit decision wasn't an invitation for theft, however. It's illegal to frame someone else's original-size image in your own context. The legal issues are murky for the totality of what Google is doing, but the thumbnail issue itself has already been decided by the Ninth Circuit.

What it amounts to is that Google can do a better job than Yahoo (many more links, much broader coverage) by crawling on an opt-out basis, than Yahoo can by following the law. Google thinks Yahoo should use Google technology, but Yahoo may well decide that it's preferable to sue Google over the "express consent" issue.

I can't see Yahoo going with Google when their contract expires at the end of this month. If I'm wrong, I think any new contract would be very short-term. I think that Google knows that Yahoo is planning to bail on them. If Google and Yahoo were still in negotiations, then the timing of this news Beta becomes rather curious.

Rugles




msg:43981
 1:44 pm on Sep 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

Everyman

I think Y will stay with G. Do not forget that Y owns a little chunk of G. So it is very unlikely there will be any lawsuits.

However, your points about copyright infringement does have merit in this case.

chowcat




msg:43982
 2:02 pm on Sep 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

they seemed to have toned down the vibrant red. Much better!

born2drv




msg:43983
 2:06 pm on Sep 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

I don't understand what the big deal is about copyright infringement.

Google is not stealing anyone's content and presenting it to the users. They are extracting images and headlines only. The actual content is still on the site of the news publisher's site.

It's just another form of Google finding good content and driving traffic to where surfers can find this content. These publishers can place ads on their sites and monetize their hard work. What's the harm in all this?

vitaplease




msg:43984
 2:06 pm on Sep 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

These are thumbnail images. The Ninth Circuit decided in Kelly v. Arriba (Feb. 6, 2002) that the lower resolution of thumbnail images constituted fair use

Interesting Everyman, I am not sure that will hold if they go international and use thumbnails from European news sites and show them to Europeans.

I would not be suprised if Google just asked many of these sites if they were alloud to show their photos.

Everyman




msg:43985
 5:32 pm on Sep 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

Copyright includes derivative works, which are partially defined in U.S. copyright law: "A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications, which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a 'derivative work.'"

Linking would not qualify as a derivative work. Linking with a snippet might qualify, but it would be exempted under fair use. A thumbnail with lower resolution that points to the original thumbnail on the original site may be derivative, but the Ninth Circuit considers it fair use too.

Using lead paragraphs as the bricks and mortar of a full-blown portal site would probably be considered a derivative work. Doing it without express consent might be considered fair use. But fair use involves the quantity of the use, as well as the criterion of whether it is done for purposes of making a profit. Google's quantity is massive, and they are making a profit as a company. If they were to start carrying ads on the portal, this would probably tip the scales against fair use.

The point that a news site would make is that all news sites have to frame their home pages as portals in any event, because there is only so much real estate on a home page. Even in print editions, you have jump cuts to inside pages. The front page "portal" format is an essential element of the news medium in print and the Internet. Now we have Google stealing one item from A's front page, and another from B's front page, and putting up their own portal. Behind this Google portal are hundreds of links for further information. Who can compete with this? Why would I even want to visit the New York Times or Washington Post when I can visit Google?

The problem is how to stop Google. Most news sites that know how Google works and have objections will simply disallow Google, and then they no longer have legal standing. Even if you find sites with standing to sue, Google can simply stop crawling them, and that leaves 3,995 news sites that they continue to crawl. It would be very difficult to prove any damages from a Google crawl. You can pursue a legal ruling to clarify copyright law without expecting a finding of damages, but the motivation to pursue the case is minimal -- lawyers like to get paid. (It might even be easier to show damages from not allowing Google to crawl, and then argue that one's failure to disallow would necessarily be under duress!) A class action suit is perhaps the only legal remedy that would have any chance of success. There's no one inclined to put together a class action that I can see.

As far as the thumbnails not cutting it outside of U.S. law, it seems to me that Google's image search has been doing fine outside of the U.S. for well over a year now. And their cache copy too, for several years. The problem isn't that U.S. law is weaker than other laws. Instead, it's more of a situation where the Internet in general, and Google's technology in particular, is skating at the edge of copyright laws everywhere. Such laws take time to evolve.

mfagan




msg:43986
 11:12 pm on Sep 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

The Sci/Tech sections seems to be almost exclusively the *business* of science and technology. Much less on innovation/research/etc.

Anyone else think so too?

Brett_Tabke




msg:43987
 4:03 am on Sep 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Agreed Fagan. Its all corporate news. If I want tv news, I'll turn on the tv. I can get more quality tech news out of your site, than I can Google.

[faganfinder.com...]

feeder




msg:43988
 4:16 am on Sep 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

I can get more quality tech news out of your site, than I can Google

Agreed. The machines consider an advertisment news. Editorial will always remain human.

Everyman




msg:43989
 4:49 am on Sep 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Public relations practitioners in the U.S. now outnumber reporters, and some of the best journalism schools send more than half of their graduates into public relations firms. I wonder how well the "untouched by human hands" algorithms will do as they try to rank stories for placement on this new portal. They might just make a bad problem worse. Tech news is only the most glaring example of this; the other news categories are affected as well. This portal might give new meaning to the term "pack journalism."

vitaplease




msg:43990
 11:46 am on Sep 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

The problem is how to stop Google. Most news sites that know how Google works and have objections will simply disallow Google, and then they no longer have legal standing

This article has a nice cover on the implications for (paid or subscription) newsproviders.
editor and publisher [mediainfo.com]

...News sites that insist on employing a user-registration scheme could get hurt by Google News..

...Google News already has made arrangements with some leading news sites that use registration schemes -- such as The New York Times...

...For Google's part, company spokesmen say they're considering schemes for dealing with paid content at news sites, but aren't ready to discuss them publicly yet....

Weblamer




msg:43991
 1:11 pm on Sep 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Heh, last night, on a whim, i did a google news search for 'evil'. The results came up as 6,660 articles found. I was so tickled by this I made a screenshot:

[icontrol.0catch.com...]

rytis




msg:43992
 8:34 pm on Sep 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Weblamer, your account doesn't allow to view pics from another host : "A Hotlinking Error Has Occured". and i was invited to gamble some(popup), instead of the screenshot.

Re Google News, it's 2 days and I already have a habit to go there. Google addiction? I don't know. Good move, congrats.

vitaplease




msg:43993
 7:45 am on Sep 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

Job interview:

Journalist job applicant to personnel officer of Newspaper:

Yes, but are you in the Google 4000?


vitaplease




msg:43994
 12:31 pm on Oct 18, 2002 (gmt 0)

[rediff.com...]

nice article about the inventor of this tab.

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