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Now, about those META Keywords tags ...
Are we sure they don't make any difference
AnnaOlson




msg:176003
 5:14 pm on Aug 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

Whenever I read any "received wisdom" it tells me that Google ignores META Keywords.

But I don't think it does. I have a site that was doing well for the search term "Widget Offers" by having that phrase in the TITLE, H1, body of the site, etc.

However, it wasn't until I made "Widget Offers" the first META Keyword that Google then put me at first place. Great!

So I contend that Google actually DOES take notice of your META Keywords, but only when the rest of your site fulfils their criteria.

Comments?

Anna

 

Rugles




msg:176004
 5:31 pm on Aug 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

You may have some new incoming links to bring up your PR. That could be the reason for the higher ranking.
Meta information is too easy to abuse. Google knows this.

Google operates on their page rank system.

pageoneresults




msg:176005
 5:33 pm on Aug 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hello AnnaOlson, welcome to Webmaster World.

Google does not index the keywords tag. As Rugles mentioned, it is most likely due to other factors.

[searchenginewatch.com...]

Rugles




msg:176006
 5:43 pm on Aug 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

Sorry I did not realize you were new here....

Welcome AnnaOlson

satanclaus




msg:176007
 6:21 pm on Aug 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

I've had similar experiences to yours Anna and have always been somewhat a skeptic on whether or not Google completely ignores META keywords. I include them because I believe a search engine would consider the completeness of a page in determining the validity of its relevance.

JamesR




msg:176008
 6:31 pm on Aug 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

do we have any recent tests on this?

To test, try placing a very unique phrase in meta keywords tag (i.e. quick giraffe stomped on small turkey) and use that phrase only there, and then check if it shows up in a search in a couple of updates.

yezariael




msg:176009
 7:45 pm on Aug 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

I would expect that when adding/improving Meta-Tags one almost certainly improves other stuff on or about (links) the site..

jaytierney




msg:176010
 8:28 pm on Aug 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

I realize the general wisdom is that Google ignores META tags, but I think a lot of people aren't looking at the facts. During the July update, a lot of people (myself included) reported that some sites had the meta tag description line showing up on Google SERPs. CLEARLY, while perhaps very minor, Google is at least looking at these meta tags and using them somehow. Perhaps for categorization for sites not listed in DMOZ? Now there's a theory...

Rugles




msg:176011
 8:59 pm on Aug 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

"quick giraffe stomped on small turkey"

Oh sure, reveal the most important keyword phrase that provides all my traffic.

deltakits




msg:176012
 9:17 pm on Aug 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

#1 listing for that phrase

:)

[geocities.com...]

pageoneresults




msg:176013
 9:44 pm on Aug 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

From Google themselves...

Index Content Features
As with the public Google search engine, the Appliance tracks anchor text and links to and from pages. Unlike the public version, it also indexes all meta fields in HTML files, including author, description, keywords, generator (inserted by some HTML editors), and Dublin Core tags.

pageoneresults




msg:176014
 10:00 pm on Aug 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hmmm, and then this from Paul Bruemmer on 2002-04-03...

> Search engines now focus on indexing text that is visible on the page because the "invisible text" in meta tags was abused in the past (repetition and relevancy) and is viewed with suspicion. Nonetheless, I recently asked AltaVista, FAST AllTheWeb, Google and Lycos about using meta tags, and only one said it ignores them.

> AltaVista said developing proper meta tags is important, and that it uses titles, descriptions and keywords in its ranking algorithm. FAST said it looks for meta descriptions, and if none are found it examines the first 250 characters on the page. Google said it looks at the keyword and description meta tags, but they're not a major ranking factor. Lycos said it doesn't use meta tags but won't penalize for them, either.

Oh, I can see it now, webmasters are racing to insert those meta keywords tags back into their <head>s. ;)

AnnaOlson




msg:176015
 10:15 am on Aug 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

do we have any recent tests on this?
To test, try placing a very unique phrase in meta keywords tag (i.e. quick giraffe stomped on small turkey) and use that phrase only there, and then check if it shows up in a search in a couple of updates.

This isn't how I'm saying it works, though. If you put a word just in your Keywords tag, then I'm quite sure that Google will ignore it.

What I am saying it that Google takes the keywords into account with the rest of the page - in a holistic manner, if you will. So if your page contains "Widget Offers" in the TITLE and headings and page text, then having that same phrase in your Keywords will help.

Regards

Anna

Rugles




msg:176016
 12:18 pm on Aug 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Anna

It may help but very little. I do not think it alone would account for your first place ranking, even for a non-competitive keyword.
Do you remember what your page rank was before the update?
Then check it against your current page rank.
I am guessing that your page rank increased and that it what is helping you.

Grumpus




msg:176017
 12:44 pm on Aug 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

My theory on this is that it has more to do with "similar sites" and relevance concepts than anything else. If two pages have the same keyword and that keyword is in the search, they are more likely to have a similar theme. I also think they look at keywords and compare them to density on the page to add some sort of relevancy factor to the search. If you have a keyword that doesn't appear on the page, then you're stuffing and they keep an eye on you as a potential spammer. If you have a keyword and it appears quite frequently on the page, then it really IS a keyword and your relevancy to other pages with that keyword is enhanced (and maybe even possibly the words which appear near that keyword in the text).

G.

Chris_R




msg:176018
 12:52 pm on Aug 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

1) Matt Cutts recently has said in a french article that they do look at them.

2) Google originally did use keyword tags.

Those two factors lead me to believe they do LOOK at them. I doubt they do much of anything. Put them in - leave them out - it won't matter 99.9% of the time is my theory.

Calum believes they use them when nothing else is present for them to latch onto.

Oh and I agree - there is little proof here that this has occured.

AnnaOlson




msg:176019
 12:58 pm on Aug 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

I am guessing that your page rank increased and that it what is helping you.

Pagerank was 5 and remains at 5.

Number of inward links remains the same (low).

I find it interesting that people are trying to come up with any other theory other than that - where applicable - Google will take Keywords into account. Satanclaus has had a similar experience, and pageoneresults quotes Paul Bruemmer as saying that Google admits that it indexes Keywords, but they are not a major ranking factor.

They may not be major, but I am quite sure they made the difference between me having a top 10 position (before the change) to the number 1 position (after the change).

I've yet to find any credible alternative answer ... but I'm still listening!

love

Anna

Grumpus




msg:176020
 1:04 pm on Aug 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Amen, Anna. I agree. Reading most of these posts debunking your theory makes SEO look more Hollistic than it needs to be.

Wasn't there another thread here about SEO being dead?

G.

born2drv




msg:176021
 1:10 pm on Aug 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Anna, if you are really curious to know... why not simply remove your keyword phrase from the meta tags and see if your ranking drops?

That is a conclusive and fairly accurate way of testing it out, even though there are sure to be other factors such as algorithm change.

Be sure to report your findings back here :)

Chris_R




msg:176022
 1:30 pm on Aug 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Anna - I understand your reasoning, but I have thousands of pages in google and watch them move all the time.

Some move up and down month to month for no clearly understandable reason. PR does change month to month and even if none of the pages above or below you changes their content AND their PR looks the same - rankings can and do still change.

Keywords are almost last thing I worry about. Others that have been successful with the search engines probably have had the same experience.

One of the things that have helped me most with google is trying to think like them.

WWGD=What Would Google Do?

Would they rely on keywords when they do not need to (it doesn't make pages more relevant)?

No one I can think of would suggest keywords are useful in ranking a public database. Therefore, I would think google doesn't use them to any great extent.

I have read many things about google - some are even myths I have PROVEN incorrect with spreadsheets. Depite this - you will always hear tons of opinions.

It COULD be that google did rate your page higher, but I would bet money it is due to almost any other factor besides that.

It is kind of like submitting - despite time after time showing that submitting is all but useless, some people REFUSE to believe and continue submitting to google. Either way it won't matter much.

In either case - it may have appeared - or even really did - help, but there are plenty of people who do VERY well without either and no measurable ill effects.

When in doubt - put them in. If you aren't sure than you shouldgo ahead and follow your instincts - it won't hurt you - except some of your time.

my 2 cents...

Chris_R




msg:176023
 1:32 pm on Aug 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Please note the ONLY way to test this out (that I can think of) would be with a large number of pages (on different - no interlinked sites) - randomly assigned keywords and then alternated back and forth in a random fashion through successive updates.

Anyone that wants to do it - feel free....

FlashRed




msg:176024
 2:10 pm on Aug 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

What might be ignored today may not be ignored tomorrow :)

gsx




msg:176025
 2:20 pm on Aug 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

You should always use meta keywords and description tags...

Just because Google does not (reportedly) use them, does not mean other engines do not. They are still important in AV and Ink. If Google chooses to use them, they should be there.

Rugles




msg:176026
 3:11 pm on Aug 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Anna

I use Meta keywords for all my sites. More so to rank on the other engines besides Google.

As for your page rank of 5...... I believe that Google rounds down. So if your previous page rank was 5.1 and now it is a 5.8 I think that you would still see a rank of 5. Maybe the others can dispute this theory.

>Your number of inbound links being the same.
If the page rank of one of your inbound links increased, so would your page rank. An "all boats rise with the tide" kind of thing.

Deep down I wish Meta keywords were the majic bullet but I am not convinced at this point.

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