homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 54.163.72.86
register, free tools, login, search, pro membership, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Become a Pro Member
Home / Forums Index / Google / Google News Archive
Forum Library, Charter, Moderator: open

Google News Archive Forum

This 53 message thread spans 2 pages: 53 ( [1] 2 > >     
Do Outgoing Links Help Your Rankings
What's the verdict?
surfgatinho




msg:188551
 10:04 pm on Dec 16, 2004 (gmt 0)

Just wondering what the concensus is on whether outbound links are helping and to what extent.
From what I can see there are a few sites doing well that have very little in their favour except these links. On the other hand though why don't people's links pages come a lot higher in the SERPs? - surely these are relevant outbound links?

Also how to select good links for the purpose of ranking well - just choose those that are at the top of the SERPs?

 

DerekH




msg:188552
 4:07 pm on Dec 18, 2004 (gmt 0)

Also how to select good links for the purpose of ranking well - just choose those that are at the top of the SERPs?

Reading between your lines, you are not interested in outbound links for your visitors' sake, or you'd choose ones you thought would please them.

If you're interested in giving outbound links to challenge or prove the hypothesis that this will incrase your ranking, then beware of the corollary... If you link to a site at the top of the SERPs, you'll increase that site's inbound links, give it some of your PR and possibly put a glass ceiling above you of your own making.

Corollary 2 - if everyone in the world linked to the site at the top of their SERPs, the SERPs would become artificially polarised to such an extent as to become useless - the rich would get richer and the poor poorer...
DerekH

jino




msg:188553
 1:54 am on Dec 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

This may be related.

I am noticing a lot of sites stealing my page titles for numerous keywords.

For example, I have product pages with the page titles like
widgetA from mysite name

When I come across my competitor's page, they put in
widgetA from mysite.
into the text of their page. There is no link in the text.

I used to rank highly for widgetA and now I dont at all and my competitor is in the top 5 position.

They also steal text from other top ranking sites. I assume they get the data from the Google search API.

I know that this is not quite outgoing links. Will this put them in a better position or somehow knock you out of the SERPs?

Powdork




msg:188554
 6:16 am on Dec 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

If you link to a sandboxed site using their site name you will rank when anyone searches for site name but they will not.;)

eyezshine




msg:188555
 6:43 am on Dec 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

The way I see it working is....

If you want your page to rank well for "widgets", Just create links to other pages (internal or external, it doesn't make much difference) with the keyword "widgets" in the outgoing links.

Links like...
"blue widgets"
"red widgets"
"orange widgets from florida"
"red widgets from africa"
etc...

Just link to on topic pages like that and that makes your page an authority page on widgets. I also think you get brownie points if you link to competetors but can't prove it.

Basically if your page has incoming links with the keyword "widgets" and the outgoing links all have the word "widgets" in the anchor text, google thinks that page is an authority page on widgets.

Of course the page should talk about widgets with alot of text about widgets. and it also helps if you have pictures of widgets with "widgets" in the alt tag.

I'm not saying all your links to other pages have to have "widgets" in the anchor text but it helps.

Also google does not consider your entire site as a theme. It only considers individual pages as theme pages. so you don't have to build an entire site based on widgets. You just need to make sure your individual pages are themed accordingly.

You can have many themes to a site. Just make sure each page has it's own unique theme with incoming and outgoing links with your keyword "widgets" in the anchor text.

It seems simple enough?

Pedent




msg:188556
 1:40 pm on Dec 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

The following could just a be coincidental, but...

I have a few outbound links to similar sites on my homepage. About three months ago, I removed them to prevent the PR leak, and a few days later lost several places in the SERPs. I put them back, and a few days later regained my original position.

On the other hand, when I completely changed the content of my home page, there were no changes in the SERPs. This makes me think that my position is more to do with off-page factors like internal link structure, incoming links, and outgoing links, than to do with on-page factors like keyword density.

I wonder the observed effects of removing the links are repeatable...

surfgatinho




msg:188557
 1:42 pm on Dec 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

OK here's my observation that made me ask the question.

There is a large (cookie cutter I beleive is the term) site listing just about anything you can buy online.
The first thing to note is there is absolutely no content, nothing! The page consists of:
1. KW related title
2. KW related h1
3. Left hand menu with list of 15 KW related links to other internal pages
4. List of 15 outgoing links from various sources - I think these links are pulled from various search engine APIs using the KW combo from the title
5. And the page is called KW combo .htm

The pages I am seeing whipping me in the SERPs have no PR and there are over 900 related KW combos for just one product type and therefore over 900 pages. It is worth noting many of the KW combos are inspired by the ad words KW suggestion tool (or at least appear to be)

I think Google have given us a really useful insight into how their algo might work with this site as it has no obvious merit but does very well

Broadway




msg:188558
 4:47 pm on Dec 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

I recently did an experiment where I had a page ranking around #27 or so for a two word keyword phrase I was targeting.

On this page I added two links to the #1 and #3 sites for this keyword phrase (.org sites that aren't really competitors). The links contained a lot of text, rich in the keywords being targeted.

I saw absolutely no change in the page's SERP rank. Even after Google had re-cached the page.

After a week or so I actually saw this page disappear from the SERPs, replaced by another similar page from my site.

Yes possibly I triggered some sort of SEO/spamming penalty from Google but the SEO I used in creating these links was the same fashion I have always used.

Just yesterday I removed the two links. I don't know if the page will reappear in the SERPs or not.

Bottomline however for me was that adding these two links did nothing to help my rankings.

egomaniac




msg:188559
 6:41 pm on Dec 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hi surfgatinho,

What you have described in your second post is a classic "hub" page:

3. Left hand menu with list of 15 KW related links to other internal pages
4. List of 15 outgoing links from various sources

A "classic" hub page is almost all links and nearly 0 content. The only other text on the page is usually just H tags. This hub structure is what you see in DMOZ and other directories. It has performed well in Google for years now.

The pages I am seeing whipping me in the SERPs have no PR...

Just cause you can't see it on the toolbar, doesn't mean it has 0 PR. I am not an expert on this though cause I haven't tested it.

So, does outbound linking help? Personally I don't think it is a huge factor.

I do think that having a link(s) on a page that has the target phrase in the anchor text can help make a page appear as more on topic and probably boost's its ranking. Whether that link needs to go "offsite" or link within the same domain... I personally have not seen evidence that it makes much difference.

I strategically link off of my own pages to other tightly targeted pages within my site, and I believe that helps cause the link text is on the same/similar/related topic as the page is about.

Pass the Dutchie




msg:188560
 7:12 pm on Dec 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

If you link to a sandboxed site using their site name you will rank when anyone searches for site name but they will not.

Powdork - I have also noticed this with certain reciprocal link text on new sites and not just in Google. If these similar results also appear in Yahoo’s SERPs (to date I am unaware that Yahoo sandbox domains) I would assume that this effect is not directly related to sandbox, just certain new sites, which in turn are effected by sandbox ; )

sasha




msg:188561
 7:53 pm on Dec 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

> I am noticing a lot of sites stealing my page titles for numerous keywords.

Jino, I had exactly the same situation. I have contacted the site in question and told them that they are stealing our intellectual property.

It turns out they are simply hosting the content for a 3rd party content creators that does, indeed, get their content from Google and Overture feeds.

So I spoke with the content creators, told them that I would sue both them and the hosts if they dont pull down all text from my sites and links to my sites from their pages.

He tried to convince me that the link on his page "actually helps" my site. However, the fact of the matter is, the his home page has PR7 or 8, so just by taking the content from my site (ie. Title tags, descriptions and snippets from actual page text) - they would outrank me every single time.

It also did not help their cause that theirs were doorway pages to a site that sells shady dental plans.

Anyway, I threatened to sue and they backed off. I suggest you do the same. It's the only way these people would learn.

DerekH




msg:188562
 11:57 pm on Dec 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

Anyway, I threatened to sue and they backed off. I suggest you do the same. It's the only way these people would learn.

?It's the only way these people learn?
It's the only way their lawyers cream off money....from you....

This is no more mature than "My Dad's bigger than you Dad..."

Can this forum dream up nothing better than handing it all over to those who don't understand the issues?

surfgatinho




msg:188563
 1:35 pm on Dec 24, 2004 (gmt 0)

OK, I just had a closer inspection of the site that is offending me most in the SERPs. It's appearing several times for some highly competitive KWs
This is how I described it:
There is a large (cookie cutter I beleive is the term) site listing just about anything you can buy online.
The first thing to note is there is absolutely no content, nothing! The page consists of:
1. KW related title
2. KW related h1
3. Left hand menu with list of 15 KW related links to other internal pages
4. List of 15 outgoing links from various sources - I think these links are pulled from various search engine APIs using the KW combo from the title
5. And the page is called KW combo .htm

Anyway, I've just noticed it's not using outgoing links it's using a redirect script.

Can somebody please explain why this site is doing so well - surely it's not just keywords and internal anchor text.

larryhatch




msg:188564
 2:09 pm on Dec 24, 2004 (gmt 0)

Back to the original question:
Do Outgoing links help rankings?

I don't thing anybody knows. BUT, Google has clearly stated that they
encourage people to link out to sites with good content etc.

I have one non-commercial site on a somewhat controversial topic.
There is a lot of junk out there, and a few good sites.
What I do is link to those sites that give the best and hopefully least goofy
information. Period.

I'm not about to outguess the methods and means of Google.
Lets just say they are considerable, well beyond my means.

As long as I stick with the spirit and practice of their stated
preferences, I think that I stand a better chance of some benefit
from linking out to good sites, whether they link back or not.

Best - Larry

irishaff




msg:188565
 3:19 pm on Dec 24, 2004 (gmt 0)

If you build a site for visitors you will be ranked, if you only focus on SEO you will possibly be ranked. I personally think that placing links on your website to quality content doesnt hurt , you may become a " hub " for your niche. In my experience it has given me a small boost.

David

larryhatch




msg:188566
 3:46 pm on Dec 24, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hi David:

I suspect, but cannot prove, that good outgoing links helped a little bit.

I like to think that my W3C validation sticker helped more than a GoldenSite
award might have. Its less gaudy for one thing.
I even considered awarding myself the "Larry Prize" for web-wonderfulness ..
I would have to put up a ding-bat awards page to display it though.
My sister Julie could whomp up a "Julie Award", she has artistic talents.

Awards pages are about as useful as a guestbook though.
I'm still wondering if my hit-counter looks "tacky".

All sorts of things I learned on these WebmasterWorld pages helped a lot.
But, I would bet that presenting the only site of its kind helped most of all.

- Larry

Small Website Guy




msg:188567
 2:34 am on Dec 25, 2004 (gmt 0)

If you build a site for visitors you will be ranked, if you only focus on SEO you will possibly be ranked.

Clearly false. I see plenty of SEO spammy junk sites doing well in the SERPs and sites that clearly have a lot to offer human visitors doing poorly.

irishaff




msg:188568
 2:51 am on Dec 25, 2004 (gmt 0)

Let me rephrase:

If you build your websites for visitors and implement good SEO ( i.e make your site accessible to google ) then your sorted. If some crap does rank above you its only that and for the person looking at it the back button is a click away.

Whats the point here , getting thousands of visitors with a website so crap looking that you wont sell something that is free or build a site that people are interested in reading and getting conversion on a slightly smaller number of visitors.

Ranking is where you link out to and who links into you nowadays on top of relevant ( accesible content ).

I would add that the number two slot for a competitive keyword i target is taken up by a directory site i own ( its got my advert on top with a static html link to my site which is in the number one slot ). There is the faintest of SEO technique used on it. ( to be precise Title , meta and H1 ). Thus i guess you would not want to link to somebody on the first page , but somebody towards the bottom of page 2 and beyond..dont help your closest competitors.

Marcia




msg:188569
 3:21 am on Dec 25, 2004 (gmt 0)

>>Anyway, I've just noticed it's not using outgoing links it's using a redirect script.

Is it a 302 redirect?

>>If some crap does rank above you its only that and for the person looking at it the back button is a click away.

Fine point of distinction here. So are PPC feeds and so is AdSense only a click away, and that's exactly what they're cranking out that parasitic scraper scum for.

Brett_Tabke




msg:188570
 4:38 am on Dec 25, 2004 (gmt 0)

> If you link to a sandboxed site using their site
> name you will rank when anyone searches for site name
> but they will not.

Thanks - that is the smartest seo tip I've read in awhile.

Powdork




msg:188571
 8:18 am on Dec 25, 2004 (gmt 0)

Thanks - that is the smartest seo tip I've read in awhile.
Merry Christmas. :)
Powdork




msg:188572
 5:26 am on Dec 26, 2004 (gmt 0)

I wonder what would happen if we were to take an established site and then create a page which uses a 302 to link to a sandboxed site. Do two wrongs make a right?

Marcia




msg:188573
 7:47 am on Dec 26, 2004 (gmt 0)

Powdork, you mean 302 a page that already has PR or put a brand new page up to redirect?

I've got an old forgotten-about very topical test page that's sitting on an established site that's 4 years old doing nothing, but it's actually in the ball park for ranking and gets some occasional traffic. It could move up very nicely if anything at all was done with it - not likely where it is. I was thinking of getting a brand new domain and redirecting that page to it just to see what happens.

Powdork




msg:188574
 7:58 am on Dec 26, 2004 (gmt 0)

Powdork, you mean 302 a page that already has PR or put a brand new page up to redirect?
Good question. I'm not sure if it would matter as long as the redirecting page were set up on an established domain with decent pr. I know a bit more about the sandbox than I do about the 302 redirect glitch though.
flood6




msg:188575
 8:23 am on Dec 26, 2004 (gmt 0)

Do two wrongs make a right?

LOL, no, but three rights make a left.

As long as we're pitching opinions about the value of outbound links, I'll offer the possibility that while they may not help a site, maybe a well-placed, on-topic outbound link to an authority site might make up for one of your SEO sins in Google's eyes; ie, your link to that about.com page makes up for that long forgotten page where you linked to some domain that expired last year and was hijacked by a viagra site with penalties from here to last week.

Surely when you look at all the sites in G's index you would be able to see a trend in finding that sites that link to other quality sites are more often than not, also quality sites. I'd clarify that by pointing out that I said "trend" not "rule". If that is the case, it wouldn't be a stretch to admit the possibility that the worlds most popular SE takes that into account in their algo.

surfgatinho




msg:188576
 4:46 pm on Dec 26, 2004 (gmt 0)

Is it a 302 redirect?

I can I tell (without having to read around the topic!)?

gojoe_gojoe




msg:188577
 7:46 am on Dec 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

The question is "Do outbound links help and to what extent?"
I say YES YES YES. You need to understand the philosophy of Google and why. Google is a portal site leading you to find more information. Google is all about getting you to the information you want, and then getting you off their server by not tying up to re-search for the same thing. So what they want are sites that have many out going links and find your information on those sites. If you have more out going links than internal links you will look like a portal site giving out information more so than your competitors. Google wants you to find the most pertinent information in their searches then comb through the site you click on to find further information. Keep all your out going links relative to your content and make sure the words you link to are words that relate to your industry. Google likes words that are relative, like a thesaurus. Also don't put all these on 1 page and call it the links page. Be smart sprinkle them through out the site...Google loves this...This information is just another piece of the puzzle for SEO, not the cure all for all your SEO woes, but it's a major piece. I have seen it work and I understand the Google philosophy behind it. Ask your self, "why would Google rank you higher for outgoing links, what would be the purpose of that?" Think from a portal site perspective.

gojoe_gojoe




msg:188578
 8:50 am on Dec 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

Forgot to add:
Also the reason they want you off their server quickly to find information on a relative web site is because of harware and bandwidth reasons. Google is so big the resources are eaten up with to many re-searches for the same topics, so to make sure they keep this type of resource hog down is has to put portal web sites on their front page searches. Think about it and you will soon see that those who say this doesn't help don't yet truely undesrstand why Google does what it does. Googles hardware and resource consumption plays a part in why they do what they do in their algorithms too.

Powdork




msg:188579
 8:58 am on Dec 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

I'm guessing they also penalize sites running adsense because they don't want to keep serving up those darn bandwidth eating js files too. Their nightmare is when people click on an ad and then they have additional resources that must be used to track the click and provide reports.

If Google weren't making money with every search (on average) it would just take a subtle algo change to fix it. They want you on their site as much as I want people on my site, and for the same reason.

victor




msg:188580
 9:20 am on Dec 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

You need to understand the philosophy of Google and why. Google is a portal site leading you to find more information. Google is all about getting you to the information you want, and then getting you off their server by not tying up to re-search for the same thing. So what they want are sites that have many out going links and find your information on those sites. If you have more out going links than internal links you will look like a portal site giving out information more so than your competitors.

I agree up to a point.

The original justification for PageRank was: PageRank can be thought of as a model of user behavior.

Modeling user behavior - ie sending users to somewhere useful for their search -- continues to be be Google's aim (or hope)

Sending users to a page of garbage links is not useful -- a user would back out of there very quickly. So anything designed to model user behavior will mark that page to be avoided. And possibly hang a question mark over the whole site. Think oneway link farms.

Sending users to a well-structured, on topic, set of authoritative links -- now that's a good result for the user.

Tentative conclusion: outward links that are useful to the user are the ones that Google wants to give some extra weight to.

This 53 message thread spans 2 pages: 53 ( [1] 2 > >
Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google News Archive
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Home ¦ Free Tools ¦ Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About ¦ Library ¦ Newsletter
WebmasterWorld is a Developer Shed Community owned by Jim Boykin.
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved