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How Google can avoid Google checksum algorithm crack?
PR_Weaver

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 7:57 am on Sep 16, 2004 (gmt 0)

As you may know Google checksum algorithm has been cracked and was released all over the web in june. Since that time, many people developed tools based on this cracked code.

Since the time this cracked was released Google hasn't updated the PageRank and I wonder if this could be an explanation for the non PageRank update on the Google Toolbar.

On the 9th of september Google changed the toolbar checksum algorithm, but as hackers have already cracked it in the past and as the new checksum algorithm is similar to the old one, they will probably succeed.

According to the comments in my blog (ask me the URL in PM), hackers are working to crack it again.

In order to avoid such crack one of the solutions for Google would be to add a new factor to its algorithm.

Until now Google's checksum algorithm is only based on one factor: the URL. Once the algorithm is cracked, it is easy to get the PageRank from a URL.

Now, imagine if Google changes the algorithm to base it on two factors (the URL and the unique ID of the user's computer for example), what would happen? Everybody would have a different checksum for the same URL, so all cracked and server solutions would instantly be useless with no hope to get back in the game.

Regards

PR Weaver

 

Brett_Tabke

WebmasterWorld Administrator brett_tabke us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 8:53 am on Sep 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

First, the toolbar checksum was not cracked in June. It was cracked almost 3 years ago and has been continuously decoded since then. The checksum algo has changed 4 times in the intervening years.

Dig for it: [WebmasterWorld.com...]

There is no question that Google can actively detect an inappropriate and unauthorized "pull" of the page rank value to any site.

It is clear that Google intentionally leaves the "broken" algo out there to catch seo's. Many believe the last checksum code that was passed around in mid 2003 was part of what update Florida was all about.

Google loves to do major updates in late fall - early winter (Florida 2003 - Dallas 2002 - Irvine 2001). I believe we are on the verge of Update Vegas. Brace yourself - I have a very strong hunch it is going to be a real hurricane.

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 9:32 am on Sep 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hurricane, let's hope so. A stiff wind should be able to blow most of this lightweight junk away tho.

danny

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 10:35 am on Sep 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

I'm seeing signs of a major update over the last day - results seem to be switching between two sets of results, one of which undoes whatever "penalty" hit my site three months ago.

But I don't know this is just an accidental (and temporary) relaxation of a filter or a broader change.

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 11:21 am on Sep 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

Interesting that you mention that, danny. I see the exact same thing with a couple pages. Same datacenter, but hit refresh and it will rotate (not every time) between a much more logical result set and the "main" one now that seems to be illogically devaluing some sites.

So maybe this is good... on the other hand, *every time* the past four or so months I see a significantly better batch of data pop up on some datacenters, it has never been used and instead a *worse* one than the current one has been. So, hoping for the best, dreading the worst...
==

<and now, poof, minutes later, gone, and only the junkier results remain>

Jon_King

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 12:06 pm on Sep 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

>>Google loves to do major updates in late fall - early winter (Florida 2003 - Dallas 2002 - Irvine 2001). I believe we are on the verge of Update Vegas. Brace yourself - I have a very strong hunch it is going to be a real hurricane.

Now there is some news!

danny

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 1:11 pm on Sep 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

steveb, yeah, when the good results stop, things seem to be worse than they were before. I just wish I could work out what the filter involved is!

steve40

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 1:38 pm on Sep 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

I think your right Brett some wierd stuff happening on the datacentre's unseen normally with banned / filtered sites coming to top of serps and major changes across all sectors
A NEW ALGO COMMETH , and think it may be a hurricane as you say , reckon late next week or end of the month

lots of tears / coffee / and hair pulling / and major cambling at pubcon ( see you all there )

so how many posts will it need to beat previouse real updates
steve

Conard

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 1:38 pm on Sep 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

Keep your eyes open for new posts by GG.
The last several updates were proceeded by GG warming up to the troops, then WHAM........let the fun begin.

kaled

WebmasterWorld Senior Member kaled us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 1:44 pm on Sep 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

I've been seeing 4 different results for one of my search terms for about a week. I was #2 I am now #6,#8,#20,#28.

PR_Weaver
With respect to adding an extra term for the PR checksum algo, clearly, you have no significant programming experience. The original algo was probably cracked by throwing a debugger such as Softice at the toolbar DLL. That same debugger could be used to trace the code that extracts a machine id. Alternatively, just making up a machine id would do just as well! (How exactly is Google supposed to work out whether a machine ID that is transmitted is genuine?)

The toolbar has an autoupdate feature. Google could simply change the algo weekly - that would give hackers a headache. Neverthless, a really good hacker would get round this by loading the updates for his/her own hack.

Kaled.

West of Willamette

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 1:11 pm on Sep 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Any details that you care to share, Brett?

BigDave

WebmasterWorld Senior Member bigdave us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 4:55 pm on Sep 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

The toolbar has an autoupdate feature. Google could simply change the algo weekly - that would give hackers a headache. Neverthless, a really good hacker would get round this by loading the updates for his/her own hack.

A really good hacker wouldn't care about something as trivial as trying to crack the toolbar. Really good hackers would work on cracking the entire ranking system. Displaying TBPR on every page of your site automatically isn't exactly the most useful information in the world.

kaled

WebmasterWorld Senior Member kaled us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 5:03 pm on Sep 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Agreed, but for many hackers/crackers, it is the challenge that counts rather than the usefulness.

Kaled.

BigDave

WebmasterWorld Senior Member bigdave us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 5:33 pm on Sep 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

But there is no challenge to cracking something like that. I can do it in a couple of hours. That is more of a challenge for someone just starting out.

Powdork

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 7:54 pm on Sep 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Google loves to do major updates in late fall - early winter (Florida 2003 - Dallas 2002 - Irvine 2001).
Perhaps this time they would consider early fall (tomorrow) just to be nice to those counting on the xmas season. I'm not involved with any of that but I did feel sorry for those that were undercut last year.
randle

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 8:45 pm on Sep 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Terrific, now I can lie awake at night for the next two months reliving my Florida nightmares. Yikes!

mifi601

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 4:03 pm on Sep 21, 2004 (gmt 0)

Brett, that's a real teaser ... details?!

LukeC

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 6:04 pm on Sep 21, 2004 (gmt 0)

There was a major algo change in the UK about 6 weeks ago - did this not happem in the US or was it something that happened in the US ages ago and then happened in UK or Europe later?

randle

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 6:16 pm on Sep 21, 2004 (gmt 0)

Thatís what we should be discussing; what might the nature of the shake-up be? If it's coming so be it but I would like to be much better prepared than I was with Florida. Talk about a two by four to the head.

Personally I have this bad feeling about linking. If I were Google thatís where I would go to separate the wheat from the chafe.

ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 1:12 am on Sep 23, 2004 (gmt 0)

I think it has already started. They are doing some serious manual spam cleaning right now. It is not over I have seen new bans almost daily.

rfgdxm1

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rfgdxm1 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 2:29 am on Sep 23, 2004 (gmt 0)

>Google loves to do major updates in late fall - early winter (Florida 2003 - Dallas 2002 - Irvine 2001). I believe we are on the verge of Update Vegas. Brace yourself - I have a very strong hunch it is going to be a real hurricane.

Clarify what you mean? It currently is the first day of Autumn. A late fall - early winter would imply the update is at least 2 months off, and I wouldn't say if it is that far in the future we are on the verge of it.

Powdork

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25772 posted 4:13 am on Sep 23, 2004 (gmt 0)

Plus the update Vegas tile which would presumably be around the 16th of Nov which would almost mark the anniversary of Florida. As an alumni of the update (and the school) I hope G doesn't plan a repeat. OTOH, ANY update would be welcome at this point.

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