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Beating the penalty effect
SlowMove

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 11:11 pm on Sep 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

All my sites are old and indexed.

Thinking about new sites. Will high quality content sites get indexed quickly? Is anyone doing anything to get indexed quickly?

 

Pass the Dutchie

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 9:27 am on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

"new pages on existing sites seem to rocket to the top of the SERPS"
Nonsense. Complete crap.

steveb

How can you possibly know how my sites perform? I stand by my findings.

As steveb said, it's unwise to come to any conclusion on so little evidence.

True but if there is a better way or even an alternative measure one can take to improve your chances to not get sandboxed for 8+ month, however small, then it needs to be taken into consideration especially if you are about to launch a new site.

Georg123

1. Does it affect new websites (domains)? YES
2. Does it affect new links? Unsure but would have thought so for new sites.
3. Does it affect both? Possibly
4. How long does it last? So far for me 8 months (sites indexed in Feb ’04)
5. Does it affect new pages on an old site? NO
6. Does a DMOZ/Yahoo listing factor in to help pull a site out of the sand box? Personally my DMOZ listing has not helped as 2 new sites still sandboxed for passed 6 months.

Additional Questions
7) Does sandbox affect sub domains?

george123

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 9:39 am on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Pass the Dutchie
about the subdomains in old sites i am not sure yet but i will do an experiment i will create a one page subdomain at a PR 5 page based on a competitive KW after i will optimise it i will see if it will come at the tops within a couple of weeks,if it will work i will let you know

Pass the Dutchie

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 9:52 am on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

george123

Nice one I will do the same.

JudgeJeffries

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 2:56 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Maybe the sandbox effect is here forever. Maybe the days of free listings are gone for new sites. Maybe its pay up or die.

caveman

WebmasterWorld Senior Member caveman us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 4:35 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

A number of people over the months have made posts like that made by Freedom in msg #:210 of this thread, but for some reason, posts of this kind seem to go largely unnoticed, suggesting that very few really see what is going on...or that those who do aren't saying much. ;-)

Go60Guy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 6:07 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Caveman - I agree, at least for the most part, with that post (#210), but still feel that there is a period of time during which new sites are simply inelegible for good ranking. That is not to say that for more obscure searches that a new site cannot emerge at the top of the SERPs.

On another note, here's a strange one. I have an optimized page ranking #2 on Google for reasonably competitive key words. The page has been around for a while and was added to an existing domain. The kicker is that it has no PR and no backlinks showing.

coho75

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 6:12 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

From my experience, the sandbox does not seem to affect new subdomains on old sites. I recently (3 weeks ago) put up a new subdomain on my site and the pages are already ranking well for the terms that I want them to rank for. However, based on what others here have said this doesn't seem to be the norm.

Pass the Dutchie

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 7:44 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

coho75
From my experience, the sandbox does not seem to affect new sub domains on old sites. I recently (3 weeks ago) put up a new sub domain on my site and the pages are already ranking well for the terms that I want them to rank for.

Is the existing site related in content/keywords to the site with the new sub domain?

Are they linked (one way/reciprocated)?

Are the keywords you are targeting competitive?

Any additional info as to why your sub domain was not subject to the sand box?

Anyone else in the same boat?

coho75

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 8:32 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Is the existing site related in content/keywords to the site with the new sub domain?

The subdomain is a store that sells products that are reviewed on the main site. So, the keywords/content are somewhat similar to the main site.

Are they linked (one way/reciprocated)?

The sites are linked one way. The product review pages are linked to the appropriate store pages.

Are the keywords you are targeting competitive?

Kind of a subjective question, but I would say that the keywords are competitive. Some have > 10,000,000 results

Any additional info as to why your sub domain was not subject to the sand box?

I have no idea why is wasn't subjected to the sandbox. The only conclusion I have come to is that because it is a subdomain of an exisiting site is was spared. I have a new site that was put up in March '04 that is indexed but nowhere to be found in the SERPs.

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 8:35 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

"How can you possibly know how my sites perform?"

How can you possibly know how *all* sites perform? That is the point. You are making an absurd generalization based on your own experience alone. Don't be so close-minded.

The point again is these wild oversimplifications are certainly not going to help understand this phenomenon. Some poeple get some new sites ranking, but doing similar things fail with other sites. Some new pages on old domains get right into the mix, others illogically languish. These simplistic posts with YES or NO are missing the boat by a good couple of miles.

trimmer80

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 8:49 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

As far as i have witnessed -

Sandboxing IS a time delay put on inbound links being counted to PR.

Sandboxing IS NOT site, domain or page specific whatsoever. A page does not get sandboxed, a link does.

Sandboxing DOES NOT affect only new sites. It gives the illusion that it only affect new sites as they are more dependant on new links. Old sites wont lose ranking, it will just take longer to see the expected increase.

Sandboxing DOES exist in some form.

I can say this with certainty as I have a 3 year old site that was not performing. I got a valuable link on the bottom of every page on a PR 7 site. over 1000 pages.
After one month, backlinks went up 100 and ranking increased accordingly.
After 2 months backlinks went up another 500 and ranking increased accordingly
After 3 months backlinks went up another 600 and ranking increased accordingly.

Prior to Febuary this year, i could acquire a number of links like this and would see all the affects within the first month. This is what sandboxing means to me.

I think google implemented this in an attempt to discourage people paying for PR as now they have to invest 3 months of text link advertising to get a PR boost.

steve128



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 9:09 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

trimmer80
I agree, very similar to my own "research", sandbox links, no penalty but maybe a long wait to prove conclusively.
Bad news for seo's who have impatient clients.

caveman

WebmasterWorld Senior Member caveman us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 9:25 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Do *all* new sites get 'sandboxed'? (How could they be, if as Freedom correctly points out, pages from new sites are appearing, albeit not necessarily for the searches that webmasters might prefer?)

Do *all* new pages on existing sites get 'sandboxed'? (Again, plenty of evidence to the contrary.)

Yet, perhaps because these things seem mainly true, they are often treated as though they were always true. They’re not. Accept that, and perspective shifts.

Is G discounting *new links*? I have seen no hard proof of this either, but I have seen evidence that, again, it is not always so.

Straightforward statements that new sites, new pages, or new links, get sandboxed, are not universally true. Therefore, they are not true.

Caveboy once took five steps in a dark cave, and hit a wall. After many steps along the wall, and seeing no light, caveboy determined that the wall was going to prevent him from ever leaving the cave. It turned out that this was a false assumption, and caveboy eventually saw the light. :-)

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 9:37 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

<wild claim>

It seems to me that there is lag time on *good quality* linking, while anchor text and PR benefits from low quality links appear very fast. This would explain why completely worthless keyword sub-domains seem to be the type of new site not effected at all by lag time.

100 PR5/6/7 links can just lay there, while 1000 PR0 blog comments can get a subdomain to #1 quickly. (This may be because of the exact match of the subdomain keyword to the blog comment anchor text, but still it can happen fast.)

Low quality linking, the key to Google late summer 2004.

</wild cllaim>

[edited by: steveb at 10:20 pm (utc) on Sep. 14, 2004]

trimmer80

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 10:09 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Straightforward statements that new sites, new pages, or new links, get sandboxed, are not universally true. Therefore, they are not true.

I dont believe anyone has stated that all new site, pages or links are affected.
People die from heart attacks, this is not universally true but it is true.

With so many people stating they have seen a sandboxing effect, this is evidence that there is some effect under certain circumstances. We are simply trying to find these circumstances.

SteveB your statement is exactly what I have seen happening.

caveman

WebmasterWorld Senior Member caveman us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 10:32 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

>I dont believe anyone has stated that all new site, pages or links are affected.

Plenty of posters have said as much, some in alarmingly absolute terms. I'm just trying to do a little to help stop the perpetuation of false statments and false conclusions.

>With so many people stating they have seen a sandboxing effect, this is evidence that there is some effect under certain circumstances.

Did I suggest that there was no problem?

>We are simply trying to find these circumstances.

We? Are you sure you are speaking for everyone in here? As for the facts and circumstances (and hints for that matter) they are scattered thoughout this thread.

trimmer80

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 10:52 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

As for the facts and circumstances (and hints for that matter) they are scattered thoughout this thread.

aren't they alway ;)

Plenty of posters have said as much, some in alarmingly absolute terms

must of missed those posts.

caveman

WebmasterWorld Senior Member caveman us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 11:28 pm on Sep 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

>must have missed those quotes.

No problem. Here are two (fairly black and white) statements, from msg#221 of this thread:

Sandboxing IS a time delay put on inbound links being counted to PR.

A page does not get sandboxed, a link does.

There is no proof that either of these statements is necessarily true, and there is evidence that they are not necessarily true.

Both fall far short of being sufficiently specific, and are sort of like those posts saying "H1" tags can get you in trouble. That, and a $1.50 will get you a subway token.

:-)

steve128



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 12:31 am on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

<Do *all* new sites get 'sandboxed'?>

nope not at all

make a site www.tadpole-vaulters.com provide one link, number #1 in 10 days no problem

Lorel

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 12:55 am on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)


make a site www.tadpole-vaulters.com provide one link, number #1 in 10 days no problem

Yes, but does it stay there?

It is my experience that new sites rank right away for their major keywords and then their rank drops (soon as Google snifs them out on the net).

trimmer80

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 1:43 am on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

Caveman

Sandboxing IS a time delay put on inbound links being counted to PR.

That was my quote. Please do not take quotes out of context. I in no way said I was referring to all links. The first line of that post (msg 221) also stated that they were the affects of the sandbox as "I have witnessed them".

And as I have witnessed those events, under the context, the statement is true.

web_india

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 3:50 am on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

Is it possible that the sandbox is simply the hilltop with modification?
Here the effect is not for affiliated pages but the effect of deciding to include or not include the new pages depending on the competitiveness of a keyword?

e.g. Google is well aware of the number of searches per month for keywords. Based on this data, google decides that for keywords which generate X number of searches per month (say 10,000 - just an example), it is not going to add new pages to the serps for the time being - it simply keeps on rotating existing sites/pages. For the keywords, which generate less than X number of searches per month, Google decides that it should include more pages in its results and here you see more new pages getting into the result pages.

Obviously this means that the more competitive the keyword is, the more likely that there will not be new pages in the serps and the less competitive the phrase, the pages get ranked soon. Since SEO is mostly done for competitive kewyords, this act as a dampener to SEO efforts and discourages new sites on money words and encourages sites which are generated mostly for information / personal reasons.

I don't have any proof for above but does anyone thinks that the above is a possibilty?

photonstudios

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 6:46 am on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

Sorry but you are all wrong about your Sandbox theory. The truth is, serps are much more competitive than they used to be and it takes effort to get in the top 10. I have launched a new site (3 months ago) targetting the main competitive keyword - "blue widgets", after 3 months of building links for that keyword only I am now in top 10 serps for that keyword that I targetted.

Too many people here put the mid-competitive or high-competitive keyword in a title, heading, link etc....and expect to have high rankings, others (smarters ones) simply lack anchor text keyword inbound links. Btw, it took me around 400 unique links and 1,600 non unique links (links from hundreds of pages on several domains) to achieve the top 10 in 3 months. Those links are all targetting that keyword in the anchor text (total of around 2,000).

Pass the Dutchie

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 8:22 am on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

SteveB

…..Complete crap…….You are making an absurd generalization based on your own experience alone. Don't be so close-minded.

Classic! I am simply sharing my findings which, if you read the entire thread, are quite similar to others and contradictory to some. It is you sir that is being closed minded.

Suggestions and opinions are the fuels of forums.

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 8:43 am on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

You must have an out of the body experience in making your previous posts then.

Instead of closing your mind and insisting that your findings are valid and that others are simply wrong, you would do well to consider instead of dismissing the posts of those who report contradictory experience.

As always in these threads, some people want a simple black and white answer that fits their own experience. Google is seldom that simple. There are a lot of different factors in play currently with the Google algorithm. Simply dismissing those who don't fit with your worldview, even if they are wrong, will not get you closer to understanding this googleworld of today.

Freedom

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 9:36 am on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

You both have valid points. Stay on track here.

For those that say Google is not sandboxing their brand new website and have achieved high rankings on new pages - to that I say: Just wait a few weeks.

As was reported here months ago, the sandbox doesn't always start immediately. The sandbox often starts after a few weeks. I think it starts once Google's algo fully understands your site, how new it is, the newness of your links, how it relates to the "money words." I don't think Google full understands a website immediately. Look at how adsense takes weeks to deliver relevant ads and how it takes it awhile to find all of your links - for example.

Just because you got your new site to rank high right out of the gate doesn't mean diddily squat. Wait a few weeks and Google will most likely sandbox it.

Trax

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 10:38 am on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

I just beat the filter by getting a new page on the desired #1 spot I wanted.

matrix_neo

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 12:15 pm on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

Look at how adsense takes weeks to deliver relevant ads and how it takes it awhile to find all of your links - for example.

I don't believe the above statement, I happened to get relevent ads with in minutes or hours.

coho75

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 12:26 pm on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

Matrix, I have had the same experience. If I put adsense on a new page, relevant ads show up within minutes. It has been this way since I started adsense almost a year ago.

Powdork

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 2:47 pm on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

I have launched a new site (3 months ago) targetting the main competitive keyword - "blue widgets", after 3 months of building links for that keyword only I am now in top 10 serps for that keyword that I targetted.
That is interesting.
1. Was the domain brand spanking new, never used before?
2. Did you get a dmoz or Y! listing out of the gate?
3. How many results are returned for the keywords?
4. Can you sticky me the URL and term?

I just beat the filter by getting a new page on the desired #1 spot I wanted.
I'm guessing you mean a new page on an existing domain. Not the sandbox.

I don't think Google full understands a website immediately. Look at how adsense takes weeks to deliver relevant ads and how it takes it awhile to find all of your links - for example.
Google will either understand your website immediately, or never. Of course they won't rank it until they do a credit check on the registrant listed in the whois to make a determination of your potential adwords spend.;)

Freedom

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 25654 posted 3:08 pm on Sep 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

On some of my brand new websites, months ago, AdSense didn't understand the site right away. It could take days or weeks - in my experience.

Which is not to say this is a universal truth (as so many people here love to apply their tiny bit of experience as a universal &^%% truth).

No wonder steveb is sick of reading that crap. I'm sick of reading that crap.

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