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SE Promotion especially in Google has me confused
SE Promotion & Optimization

 2:35 am on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hello some one has got to help me on this, my site is under construction and I have hired a SEO but I have insisted that I complete the website totally first. I have staff doing this but I am confused about how google does their ranking.

My site will have approximately 1,200 pages but I have seen competing sites that have a PR6 with 12 back links and low keyword frequency on the page in the number one spot and the number two site has a PR5 with over 1,000 backward links and high keyword frequency, how does this happen.

I am pretty afraid of doing what I have seen other sites do with thousands of internal links in fact one site had almost only internal links and one link from DMOZ.

Someone needs to help me out here, what does Google want to get a high page rank, I have Meta tags, Html, tags lots of pages, high keyword frequency, over 1,000 backward links, intenal though but when I submit why do I have the feeling that I might just get a PR1.

Someone please help me out on this.



 3:21 am on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

Quality links!



 3:40 am on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

Thanks Robino but I don't think that quality links are the thing, you see I have just seen a site with a PR7 in #2 below a PR6 website what on earth am I aiming for.

I can pay to get links from Dogpile, PR8, I can pay to get text links from say 10 other sites with PR6 and over but will that put me above other sites.

What I need to know is if I am wasting my time, writing good content, Good tags, keyword frequency, and building 1000+ internal links, plus I have also heard that outbound links do some good too.

But whatt gets you to the top to drive traffic to your website that is the real question...?

Back to you for your thoughts or any other member...


 3:45 am on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

It is basically a matter of a nice blend of everything. Just PR6 cant get you #1 and just 100% optimized cant keep you on top either. We all need to keep a balance on the basis of ever changing SE Algo's to keep upto the TOP and keep driving traffic!


 3:54 am on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

Basically you want to make your site THE authority in it's field.


 4:15 am on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

Ok then, so is the advice stick to the on going plan, I complete the site on May 1, 2004? Plus I registered with a domain registry direct nic that automatically put up an under construction page and now my URL is in Google. Having clearly been crawled with a PR0.

But I have decided to just complete the site all 1000+ pages then upload all the info and then hope that google crawls it and sees all the paid inclusion to Yahoo, Dogpile, Inktomi Etc

Plus we are using Microsoft B-Central's submit it to get most free directories and search engines. I've decided to use the site map page as submitting page.

I will actually hand submit to DMOZ last.

But 1 quick?, does making my site accessable to handicapped people improve PR?


 4:36 am on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

You hired SEO?


 5:47 am on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

Yes I did but I like doing a lot of things on my own as I have found out when it comes to getting to the top of search engines there are a lot of schools of thought and if everyone is so sure that they are correct why is it that large companies that charge up to USD$30,000 and over to optimize cant give a guarantee.

this makes me believe that there is still a lot off guess work going down


 7:58 am on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

I have hired a SEO but I have insisted that I complete the website totally first.

That's like hiring a swimming instructor and insisting on taking the first lesson only after you're drowning.

You should be working with your SEO, if the SEO you've hired is any good. Your SEO might be able to help you avoid some costly mistakes.

what on earth am I aiming for

That should be your number one question. If you don't know what you are aiming for, then nobody can help you. Define your true objectives for your website.

what does Google want to get a high page rank.

Quoth Robino, "Quality links!" and nothing more.

does making my site accessable to handicapped people improve PR?

Quality Links and nothing more!

PR is just a number. It is just one variable in a complex algorithm that determines how relevant your web page is for a specific search term. It is this algorithm that will determine where your page appears on the SERP. This algorithm is continually adjusted by Google as they try to provide better results. [ Although sometimes it seems that they are headed in the wrong direction ;) ] This is why good SEOs will not offer a guarantee of top placement.


 11:52 am on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

I have hired a SEO but I have insisted that I complete the website totally first.

A mistake that you (like many others) will likely come to regret. It's a lot easier (and cheaper) to optimize a site as it's being built than having to make drastic changes to an existing site.

If you work with your SEO now, you can build quality pages that will require only minor tweaking later. If not, you might end up paying out the nose for major changes down the road.

Of course this is assuming that your SEO provider is experienced and competent. If not, your SEO efforts will be disappointing either way.


 4:07 pm on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

beltmelt, the reason I think PageRank confuses people is because there are so many other factors that go into results.

This is how PageRank works:

If you have 2 webpages, with exactly the same content (hypothetically), the one with the higher PageRank will show up higher in the results.

It is also often said that the relevancy of the backlinks is important as well.

As far as "on page" factors go, it gets a little confusing because the Goo has dropped a lot of "over-optimized" sites. My rule of thumb is to just make sure that the topic of the page is clear without having over-optimized (traditionally - kw's in title, H1 tags, 15% or more in text, and all backlinks, now = over-optimization).

Chris H.


 4:25 pm on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

Regarding sites that appear to only have internal backlinks, They probably have lots of backlinks that are less than PR4, and a huge number of deep links.

No matter what, plan on it taking a while to rate at the top consistantly.


 10:01 pm on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hey guys thanks for the help but let me ensure that I have it correctly start SEO now...Why....

I have good content and have structured all my pages that are targeted for specific keywords at a keywordd density of 18%. My SEO's specific job is this:

Create all tags HTML, ALT Header Title etc, institute robot.txt files where ready and analyse that here is not too much confusing code on the page. Stuff that I cant do.

My webdesigner is capable of placing all cross links throughout the website I just build the pages he places them on the site and then my SEO optimizes, its and on going process. The ususal SEO stuff JPEG Cruncher etc Ive done some extensive reading and this is just a small piece of the pie in comparison to Inbound links but I have already signed contracts with three of the top competitors with rankings 6 and over for text linking and I will hold to this.

So I am still going about it all wrong:
Good Content
Keyword Density
Good Tags (HTML, Title, Header Alt)
Use of Robot.TXT on site directory with Outbound links
Image Cruncher to speed loading time
Anchored links on every page to create absolute paths
Market Blitzing:-linking to semi-related sites with high PR.

If I am leaving anythingg out let me know..


 10:20 pm on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

my question would be - does advertising on dogpile pass PR?

I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

You mention seeing a PR 7 site ranking below a PR 6 site.

A higher PR doesn't necessarily mean you'll rank higher. Google is PR 10, and doesn't even rank #1 for "search engine" in Google.

The most beneficial effect of high PR in the current Google is that your site will get crawled more deeply and more frequently with higher PR.

This is probably simply an effect of the fact that more sites are linked to your site and therefore googlebot hits the pages more frequently, and dives in more deeply.

Putting it simply, Page Rank (aka PR) is simply the cumulative power of web page "votes" for your page. The more pages that link to example.com the more "votes" it has; if example.com links to you, a percentage of the cumulative voting power of all its links are transferred through its link to you. Google's toolbar shows you a graphical/numerical simplification of these cumulative votes - that's what the bar is.

However... don't expect if you are PR 2 you will rank above all PR 1 pages. In fact, I have seen PR 2 and PR 3 sites beating PR 5 and PR 6 quite regularly.

added: I don't see what benefit you imagine having by linking to high PR pages and then excluding the page via robots.txt. some people believe that linking to sites in the same category will help the search engines "theme" your site. If you exclude the page (or directory) the SE's will never see the page and the outbound links. It sounds like someone is trying to pennypinch PR.


 11:02 pm on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hey Patrick its not that really its just that I want to get to #1 for specific keyword searches some being competitive, very competitive.

So whats the deal is PR important at all in getting to the number 1 spot if its not then what on earth is?

I thought it was how many sites linked back to you and hence higher page rank, and then higherst rank hits #1 for keyword searches.

Clearly I am mistaken then what direction should I be going in...?

What determines the number 1 spot...


 11:33 pm on Apr 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

> What determines the number 1 spot...

uhh... 42?

seriously. there is no one answer. it is a variety of factors (the weight of which vary) including (and not in any particular order):

on page content
keyword density
title tags
anchor text of inbound links
quality of inbound links
theme of sites/pages that link to your site
"naturalness" of inbound links
age of inbound links
age of your site
authority of your site
authority of sites that link to you.
age of sites that link to you

there's more, but that's all my brain is relinquishing at the moment.

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