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Commercial searches
manipulation? Why not?
Crush

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 1:32 pm on Dec 19, 2003 (gmt 0)

The way I see it in commercial searches the results are manipulated anyway. So, the guy that works the hardest on link building/buying/swapping, content building or whatever is the one who has the resources to do it and has the resources to deliver and should be #1.

The post florida G returns information sites for a commercial search in some areas. Why not just accept that commmercial searches should return commercial results? This is better for the people who want to buy.

 

dmorison

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 8:32 pm on Dec 19, 2003 (gmt 0)

>> Why not just accept that commmercial searches should return commercial results? This is better for the people who want to buy.

:) Interesting dilemma for G., that one.

They of course want to drive towards sponsored links for commercial searches and this is why they are striving to return informational pages and not commercial ones. But for the reason you say (people WANT commercial results) this could mean shooting themselves in the foot.

Unless something interesting happens to the layout of the Google results page when a commercial search is "detected"...

yowza

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 8:36 pm on Dec 19, 2003 (gmt 0)

Why not just have a button that says "filter out commercial results", for the people out there who want to search for informational sites?

webdude

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 9:01 pm on Dec 19, 2003 (gmt 0)

Why not just have a button that says "filter out commercial results", for the people out there who want to search for informational sites?

That, I think, is an excellent idea! What better way to get the public what they want. Let the masses choose what they want to see. That way a person who is looking to buy a widget would get sites that sell widgets.

rfgdxm1

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rfgdxm1 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 12:49 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

Crush:

>The post florida G returns information sites for a commercial search in some areas. Why not just accept that commmercial searches should return commercial results? This is better for the people who want to buy.

The problem here is how does Google identify a commercial search? I'd argue if the search is just "fuzzy blue widgets", it should be assumed by default the person just wanted info on them, and all commercial sites selling them be filtered out. Only only if the searcher added something like "buy" or "sales" to the search term is it obvious it is commercial.

And, at the moment the searcher has the power already to do the above. If they add "buy" to the search term, that will likely bring the commercial sites to the top.

yowza:

>Why not just have a button that says "filter out commercial results", for the people out there who want to search for informational sites?

The problem here is that there isn't necessarily a clear line between commercial and info content. What about commercial sites that have lots of informational content? The above kills any site from appearing if it sells anything.

Excel



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 1:25 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

The way I see it in commercial searches the results are manipulated anyway. So, the guy that works the hardest on link building/buying/swapping, content building or whatever is the one who has the resources to do it and has the resources to deliver and should be #1.

Googles aim is to return the most relevant result based on the search criteria, not reward the site owner that work the hardest. In a nutshell Google doesn't care much for site owners only searchers. Cold hard facts I know!

BTW, I do not buy into the commercial filter theory and have yet too see any good reliable evidence that considers all the factors.

BigDave

WebmasterWorld Senior Member bigdave us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 1:49 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

To start with, most commercial webmasters seem to have an overly broad for what qualifies as a "commercial search". I recall someone complaining that a search on "Costa Rica" returned museums on an obviously commercial search.

As the webmaster for review sites, I think that my information is of value to people that are shopping. An awful lot of those people that search on "commercial" terms end up spending a lot of time on my site.

Yeah, the commercial sites should have some representation, but not at the exclusion of on topic information.

rfgdxm1

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rfgdxm1 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 2:34 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

>To start with, most commercial webmasters seem to have an overly broad for what qualifies as a "commercial search". I recall someone complaining that a search on "Costa Rica" returned museums on an obviously commercial search.

ROFL. ;) People who run commercial websites tend to view things in a biased manner. If the search could possibly be commercial, than they assume that must be the intent of the searcher. However, given the tendency of people to use short, ambiguous search phrases, probably statistically only a very small percentage of searches would qualify as being obviously commercial to neutral judges.

IITian

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 2:51 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

I don't mind commercial sites fight out for the top spots, but I do hope that Google and other SEs are required to provide a small (left) column, free of charge, for non-commercial listings 'exposing' (e.g. consumer reviews, lawsuit histories, ...) the companies/products that show up on top. We all want to be informed shoppers, don't we?

john316

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 3:46 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

BTW, I think they turned the anti-commercial knob a bit too hard on this search, 10 out of 20 results [google.com]aren't even in english.

Improvement?

Good user experience?

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 4:00 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

Why not just accept that commmercial searches should return commercial results? This is better for the people who want to buy.

What exactly is a "commercial search"? Something like "Book a hotel in Shelbyville" or "buy a Widgetco digital camera"? If that's what you're talking about, I agree. But you're defining "Shelbyville travel" or "Widgetco digital cameras" as examples of keyphrases that trigger lists of affiliate and e-commerce pages at the top of Google's SERPs, I'd strongly disagree. Google's stated mission is "to organize the world's information, making it universally accessible and useful," and I suspect that Google's definition of "information" isn't focused pnrimarily on booking forms or shopping carts. :-)

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 4:03 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

Somehow a search for a spanish language country returning spanish language serps seems okay to me.

john316

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 4:18 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

>Somehow a search for a spanish language country returning spanish language serps seems okay to me.

But my preference is english, why send me espanol just so you can hide commerce? Too far is too far.

search?as_q=costa+rica&num=20&hl=en

It's a perfect example of not giving me what I want.

rfgdxm1

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rfgdxm1 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 4:31 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

>But my preference is english, why send me espanol just so you can hide commerce? Too far is too far.

Did it perchance occur to you that some people are multilingual? I run a totally non-commercial site where I currently exchange links to one site in Russian, and one in Dutch, because many people on the Internet who know those languages also know English. (Hmm...that reminds me. Gotta add a link to that Finnish site I know of that currently links to mine.) My site happens to be one of the most authoratative on the topic in any language, and thus quite relevant to those for whom English is a second language.

Thus, the answer to your question is why filter out Espanol for those whose primary language is English on the assumption that means the person must not also know Spanish? It has nothing to do with filtering out commerce.

john316

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 4:37 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

You got it man. google rocks! A machine of many languages, cool!

I mean, I really think google is the bestest Search engine no matter what, but altavista gives me english results when I request engish, maybe they just aren't cool enough?

Altavista Results [altavista.com]

idoc

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 4:59 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have been watching this update debate and think way too much energy is being spent with the preoccupations of "commercial" "money" "adword" filters and conspiracy notions. The ontology parsing of pages so far is the only thing that makes any sense to me from the results I see as well as looking at it from Googles point of view.

There still are millions of meaningless plain random text pages spiced with <h1> text and mixed with 3-5% kw1 and kw2 saturation that either redirect by javascript or by frames or server side script that never display to a real user...just to Google. I also doubt Google willy-nilly decided to "throw the switch" on this we are likely seeing the future..like it or not of some form of AI type parsing of web results.

As far as the "costa rica" search...it is such a broad term it should probably yield a broad result and let the user decide what exactly he wanted to see. Since the country language is spanish and google is worldwide half the results being spanish pages doesn't seem off to me.

rfgdxm1

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rfgdxm1 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 5:04 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

>I mean, I really think google is the bestest Search engine no matter what, but altavista gives me english results when I request engish, maybe they just aren't cool enough?

Am I missing something? I see Spanish results in that SERP? In any case, most Google users would likely just scroll past the ones that were obviously in Spanish.

john316

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 5:12 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

I request english, I get spanish; good user experience?

You guys are great, don't get me wrong , but Apple trivia buffs will understand that you have just entered that strange place called the Reality Distortion Field [altavista.com].

rfgdxm1

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rfgdxm1 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 5:29 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

Is *this* what you were trying to achieve on Google:

[google.com...]

There IS a way to filter out the Spanish pages. You just gotta do it right.

john316

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 5:37 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

>Is *this* what you were trying to achieve on Google:

Thanks for the link, but I use av now. They gave me a nice selection of info sites and a few commercial sites. I like to make my own choices, not have other folks make them for me.

Plus...and here is the really cool part . . drumroll...

If I like the info, I can use the same set of results to buy something!

AV rocks!

But google is still the best, no matter what.

idoc

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 5:42 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

You know what is ironic about that post...3-4 years ago we would all be reading the AV forum instead of the Google one.

john316

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 5:47 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

>3-4 years ago we would all be reading the AV forum instead of the Google one.

3-4 years seems to be the crescendo zone.

rfgdxm1

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rfgdxm1 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 5:52 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

>You know what is ironic about that post...3-4 years ago we would all be reading the AV forum instead of the Google one.

Because Google is much better than Altavista at the moment, and far more people use Google. ;)

idoc

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 6:04 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

Google's what I use myself for nearly anything... put in a dll I am unsure about what it is, server error code, string of text from one of my pages or something I might want to buy...so far nothing else compares.

I would like to see ink get a bigger share to spread the eggs across two baskets and all, but Google is still it.

quotations

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 6:07 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

I just went to Altavista and tried

highlytechnical topicphrase

Where google has 83 of the best 100 sites missing since Florida.

Altavista only has 56 of the best 100 sites missing but they have been missing from Altavista for years. They were always in the top 100 at Google (for years) but are gone now so for technical people, Google is getting "as good as" Altavista, maybe even "better."

steveb

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 6:13 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

Google has spanish results in the serps so is thus bad...

but AV's first three results are in spanish so that makes them good?

Okaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy.....

idoc

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 6:27 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

The thing to remember about the Florida missing pages is they are not gone from the index...just from that result set.

You might search for "associated1 kw1 kw2" or "associated2 kw1 kw2" and those sites will return if they had relevant content to start with. If all they had were "kw1 kw2" specially formatted for the googlebot they probably deserve to be lost to Florida. What got me at first was the number of .edu and .org sites that dominated competitive keywords. I think now what it means at least to me is how largely irrelevant a large part of web-page content has become that an .edu site will beat out commercial sites because the content of most commercial sites is basically so shallow...the emphasis over the past years being on generating content for the bots instead of people.

skipfactor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 6:28 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>I run a totally non-commercial site

^see post subject above: "Commercial searches"

Powdork

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 6:35 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

Good point steveb, but i do agree that if I were sitting here in the good ol USofA and I searched for France, I would want sites in English. Nope 9 out of 10 in french. I've seen Google's rendition of French to English and it is comedic. Same thing with germany. Seriously, does anyone other than english speaking people call it germany?

Excel



 
Msg#: 20708 posted 9:47 am on Dec 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

No search engine can read minds. If you want ONLY pages written in English on France use the Advanced search an tell it so.

Any one word search is always going to be ambigious in results. Google works best when you use a string of words.

It's a poor tradesman that blames his tools :O)

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