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Google Opens R&D Lab in India
"...Google plans to open an engineering r&d center in Bangalore..."
mattdwells




msg:99606
 4:48 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

[story.news.yahoo.com...]

 

BigDave




msg:99636
 8:01 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

That is not so much considered outsourcing as shipping your core engineering work, like research and development, offshore, because that kind of stuff can be done locally.

The point that I have been trying to make to you is that it *can't* all be done locally.

There is not a large enough pool of people with the necessary skillset in this country to fill the need.

In fact, there probably is not a large enough pool in the world to fill the need presented by Google, MSN and all the hiring that will have to be done by anyone that want to compete like Yahoo if they want to go 100% INK.

Google needs *good* engineers that know their stuff. Most software engineers in this country (or any other) just aren't that good. Most of them went into it because it is a "good job". There really is a difference when you are working with a group of people with the natural ability to dig into the code, and that is what Google is looking for.

You also might be interested in checking out the names on many of the search patents, especially those from google. Do some of those names sound like they might be Indian? Oh my, you don't suppose that they might want to be able to hire some of those people from india that know a few things about search.

And you don't suppose that some of those employees that are already from india might have had some influence, you know being willing to go home for a few months to help train and have the benefit of having the company pay for the trip?

heini




msg:99637
 8:04 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Well, I guess a good percentage of the people here at WebmasterWorld are quite used to working with people from all over the world and basically feel that's one of the beautiful things of the web.
BTW: Google also has people working in Great Britain, Germany, France and some other countries for them, can't remember having heard any complaints about that.

<added>least I forget: Google has to my knowledge also several people of foreign nationality working for them in the US</added>

mat_bastian




msg:99638
 8:07 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

The reason there were few complaints is that there is some semblance of wage equity there.

j_h_maccann




msg:99639
 8:07 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Anyone who thinks that programmers are interchangeable doesn't know enough about programming. Really good programmers are scarce, and they are born in approximately equal proportions all over the world.

Any company that restricts itself to programming talent born in North America will be missing the bulk of the talent in the world, and will be less successful than it could be. India is a particularly favourable place to look for talent, because there are lots of extremely good programmers born in India, there is a good educational system, and knowledge of English is widespread.

You try to hire all the great programmers you can who want to work in California, regardless of where they were born, and when you run out then you have to take your offices to where the others want to work. Local living costs and pay scales are different between Manhattan and Mumbai, but that's not the point; the economic value of a first-rate programmer is greater than her/his wages anywhere in the world, and every creative company is supply-constrained. (There are lots of third-rate programmers everywhere, who are one-tenth or one-one-hundredth as valuable as first-rate programmers--but they are seldom paid 1/10 or 1/100 the wages of the first-raters, so they can easily cost more than they are worth and hence be unemployed.)

As interneters, especially, we are citizens of the world. Every company should seek the really great programmers, and the best programmers should have the best jobs. Third-rate programmers born in California should go and flip burgers, or equivalently maintain small business IT systems at low wages, while first-rate programmers in India or anywhere else do the more-challenging tasks for companies like Google and reap the rewards they deserve.

mattdwells




msg:99640
 8:11 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

iThink,

I am not necessarily against outsourcing to India, I was only trying point out to some people that what Google is doing is, indeed, outsourcing. The spin of the article is what perturbed me. I think people have a right to know the truth.

I *do* think countries have the right to regulate international trade that concerns them, and that those countries should regulate based on the best interests of their peoples.

BigDave




msg:99641
 8:13 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Well said j_h_maccann. Unfortunately most software managers don't even realize this. Google does.

mattdwells




msg:99642
 8:17 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

How many thousands of resumes does Google get per day from Americans? It must be a bundle! Almost every software engineer in the country wants to work for Google. They can easily get the top 1% of programmers in America, yet they outsource to India. Why? One reason. Cost.

heini




msg:99643
 8:21 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Matt, as you pointed out yourself your terminology is not correct to begin with. Outsourcing is not between countries, it's between companies. Second, Google may be legally and financially a US company, but if there ever has been a comapany extending the sphere of national borders than that is Google.
BTW: I'd be interested if your scandinavian partners would be too happy about your statements here :)

Hey, it's the WWW, remember?

mattdwells




msg:99644
 8:26 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Heini,

Read the definition of "to outsource". I've posted in on the first page. There is no mention of the word "company", only "provider".

What statements would my Scandinavian partners not be happy about?

[edited by: mattdwells at 8:29 pm (utc) on Dec. 13, 2003]

BigDave




msg:99645
 8:26 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

mattdwells

Google does not need the top 1% of programmers.

The very best compiler writer in the world may not be good enough to work for Google. I'd be willing to bet that Goolge will not hire me just because I am one of the best assembly language programmers around. They aren't going to hire someone that doesn't know search for a search position.

They need the best people that match the skillset they are looking for. They are still hiring americans, lots of them. No americans are going to lose jobs because they are opening up shop in india.

Christopher C




msg:99646
 8:38 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>To send out (work, for example) to an outside provider or manufacturer in order to cut costs.<<

Matt, google is not a country, it's a company. If you consider this (and accept google is a multinational), it's simply not outsourcing. They are keeping things internal to their company, not sending out to an "outside" provider.

Multinational definition:
Having operations, subsidiaries, or investments in more than two countries: a multinational corporation.

Of or involving more than two countries: a multinational research project.


Google has investments in many different place, they are an aspiring global company and certainly a multinational.

>>Well, I guess a good percentage of the people here at WebmasterWorld are quite used to working with people from all over the world and basically feel that's one of the beautiful things of the web. <<
Couldn't agree more, that's what I love about my job & also why my products are better than someone going from a smaller pool.

BigDave




msg:99647
 8:40 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Definitions of outsourcing

investorwords.com
Work done for a company by people other than the company's full-time employees.

American heritage dictionary
n. The procuring of services or products, such as the parts used in manufacturing a motor vehicle, from an outside supplier or manufacturer in order to cut costs.

tr.v. To send out (work, for example) to an outside provider or manufacturer in order to cut costs.

Free online dictionary of computing

<business> Paying another company to provide services which a
company might otherwise have employed its own staff to
perform, e.g. software development.

Merriam-Webster
the practice of subcontracting manufacturing work to outside and especially foreign or nonunion companies

And since this is the google forum, and thay have that wonderful new define: feature, let's give it a try.
[google.com...]

Hmm, none the definitions seem to imply that opening your own office and filling it with your own employees is outsourcing.

iThink




msg:99648
 8:40 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

I *do* think countries have the right to regulate international trade that concerns them, and that those countries should regulate based on the best interests of their peoples.

I see similarity between mattdwells and some of our trade union leaders here in India. They also think that we should throw Pepsi, Coke, Proctor and gamble, BP, Shell and AT&T out of India and into deep blue sea ASAP :)

I read an interesting news story 2 days ago that said "over half of the world's 100 largest economic entities are transnational corporations, not nations."

The world as you know where governments are able to regulate businesses doesn't exist anymore.

Oaf357




msg:99649
 8:53 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Sounds like a good smear campaign to me. "Global corporation hires employees from India" after Dell just pulled out of India.

HughMungus




msg:99650
 9:00 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

I am assuming that these will be Google employees.

With 1/3 of Google's employees being contractors, this is funny.

nileshkurhade




msg:99651
 9:00 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

And what about the brain drain from India. Some of the best doctors, engineers, scientist etc leave India and settle in America as US citizens. USA benefits from such intellects too. Does anybody remember Kalpana Chawla? One of the astronaut on Columbia.

HughMungus




msg:99652
 9:00 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

This does not seem like an attempt to save money, it seems more like an attempt to pick up good engineers wherever they can find a good supply of them.

Yes, because there are none in the the US anymore, right?

IITian




msg:99653
 9:03 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

I am an immigrant from India living in Berkeley, California. I have found that American companies in the USA either don't like to hire me or try to give me rock-bottom wages. Why not when they can find similar or even somewhat less-trained workers in India for far cheaper prices.

Christopher C




msg:99654
 9:05 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>The world as you know where governments are able to regulate businesses doesn't exist anymore. <<

Ho ho, I always thought it was business that regulated governments :) Big business' self interest is towards globalization and a melting of borders. Still, it's going to be a long time before that statement is completely true.

mattdwells




msg:99655
 9:07 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

BigDave, Christopher,

defintion of company on investorwords.com:
"Any entity engaging in business, such as a proprietorship, partnership, or corporation"

India is an entity engaging in business, therefore technically a company.

All of the other definitions of "outsource" that BigDave gave do not say that India needs to be a "company". So I would think all of these definitions allow one to "outsource" to India, a country.

IThink, there's many a reason to regulate trade. One is for human rights issues. If a country kills and maimes its citizens under a brutal dictatorship, do we really want your country doing business with them? Other reasons are for the economic interests of the domestic company. Every country has the right to look out for its own interests.

BigDave, so what you are saying is that the U.S. is pretty much depleted of search talent now so that Google has to go to India to get it? Yep, they got all 100 good search engineers the U.S. has to offer! I find that highly, highly unlikely.

Let's not let the spin pull wool over our eyes. The issue is about money. It's the same reason all the other U.S. companies outsource to India. Cheap! Why do you think Google is so different in this regards? They want to increase their bottom line like everyone else. All other companies that outsource to India could all claim that its because US talent is exhausted, too. That would be silly.

[edited by: mattdwells at 9:18 pm (utc) on Dec. 13, 2003]

mil2k




msg:99656
 9:10 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

As an American who is seeing the American middle class on the short end of this globalization stick, it makes me sick to my stomach to think about another batch of good jobs leaving my country.

Hmm. There are many other areas where other countries have been at the short end of the globalization stick. Pepsi and Coke was just one of the small examples. There are many many others.

The huge majority of their private shareholders are probably Americans or American organizations.

Yes. But do the names Ram Shriram & Vinod Khosla ring a bell? They were directly or indirectly related in funding Google. As someone mentioned google also has a good number of Indian Employees.

Krishna Bharat is gonna setup the whole Indian Research centre. He is gonna be helped by Rajeev Motwani.

How many thousands of resumes does Google get per day from Americans? It must be a bundle!

The point here is not of quantity but of quality. Do you know of IIT? Those who come out of IIT are considered to be some of the best brains in this world. Also it's very very difficult to hire these guys. There is a real shortage of these guys. Google is eyeying these bunch. And they cannot hire them sitting in America. Also even with their presence in India they will find it tough to compete with Intel and GE to hire these people.

I see similarity between mattdwells and some of our trade union leaders here in India. They also think that we should throw Pepsi, Coke, Proctor and gamble, BP, Shell and AT&T out of India and into deep blue sea ASAP

Yes most of our trade union leaders sound like matt :)

mat_bastian




msg:99657
 9:23 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hmm. There are many other areas where other countries have been at the short end of the globalization stick. Pepsi and Coke was just one of the small examples. There are many many others.

I agree... that is exactly why we need more localization not globalization.

Until there is a system of fair trade we should not be involved in the current system of free trade.

BigDave




msg:99658
 9:23 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

This does not seem like an attempt to save money, it seems more like an attempt to pick up good engineers wherever they can find a good supply of them.

Yes, because there are none in the the US anymore, right?

Now you almost have it. It isn't that there are none in the USA, but there are not enough good engineers that are truely qualified for the positions that they have.

They don't want average, they want exceptional.

Lets assume that they already have the 200 of the 300 best search programmers in the country. They now can slowly pick up the other 100, but if they have 200 more openings, they have to start picking up lesser candidates.

Now given India's population, it is fairly safe to assume that they can come up with a couple hundred that would also count as being the best search programmers in the world.

Why should Google have to settle for someone that is number 500 in this country when they have a pool where there are programmers that are as good as the best 300 in this country.

This is like telling someone that all the Caddys and Lincolns in this country are sold out, so you have to by a K-car rather than buy a Mercedes or a Lexus.

IITian




msg:99659
 9:26 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

mil2k:

I am a graduate of IIT and my experience is quite different from your perception, probably formed from reading/watching media reports. It will be easy to find out about my experience on the web and it will contradict everything you have been led to believe. ;)

Christopher C




msg:99660
 9:29 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>Ok, that about does it for this, I think we can all agree that Google is "outsourcing" to India.<<

Sigh, I give up, you're arguing about a secondary point when the first one doesn't fly. Namley, there isn't an outside party involved here at all. Everything is being kept internal to google.

Why?:
1) Google is a multinational
2) Google is hiring WITHIN.

You can't outsource if there is NO external party to the orignal. At any rate, I get your point but you're using the wrong teminology.

plumsauce




msg:99661
 9:30 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)


mil2k

you make a good point. why would a iit graduate
move to america for a job he might not get, and
if he was pre-hired, be in a position where it
was the one job he had open to him.

here, there are many indian professionals who
are immigrants. we have a shortage of such
professionals, but their credentials are not
recognised by the union(professional associations).
instead they end up driving cabs, working in
factories. our consulate in india does not
tell prospective immigrants about this reality.
they find out after they get here.

this is also true for immigrants arriving here
from many other non-western countries.

so if google wants the people, they have to
go there. it is easier to rent a building
somewhere else than it is to move the people
you want.

IITian




msg:99662
 9:32 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

>Why should Google have to settle for someone that is number 500 in this country when they have a pool where there are programmers that are as good as the best 300 in this country.

I hope Google finds its CEO, marketing executive, legal team and finance people too from India, since they don't have to settle for not-the-best. Oh I forgot, those high paying jobs are not meant for non-Caucasians in general. Mostly the programming jobs are reserved for Indians.

(Someone who went to Google's party was complaining about surprisingly lack of diversity there. I recall reading that here.)

gopi




msg:99663
 9:33 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

I am sick of some people here in USA thinking India is just a low cost software sweat-shop and the only reason companies want to go there is to save cost ... FYI India has the largest number of programmers in the world coming out of prestigious schools like IIT (BTB this institute produced more millionaires than any other undergraduate institution in the world! - Salon) ...

No company in the world can afford not to tap this qualified talent pool.

>> there is some semblance of wage equity there - mat_bastian

Definitely not - Highly Skilled programmers are paid around Million Rupees/year in india. You cannot just take the dollar equivalent .This salary when you take into account of lifestlye costs in india is way **BETTER** than say a 120k/year in US!

>> Americans want (and mostly get) full access to markets in other countries but why start crying when you see the same companies hiring employees in those countries - Ithink

Exactly :)

mat_bastian




msg:99664
 9:38 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Oh I forgot, those high paying jobs are not meant for non-Caucasians in general. Mostly the programming jobs are reserved for Indians.

You say that as though We are dumping the unsavory programming jobs on the Indians. American workers want our programming jobs to stay here. We want our manufacturing jobs to stay here. The working class as a whole is getting jobbed in this scenario. If the coorporation's white, american indentured servants are looking for too big a slice of the profit pie, overpaid CEO's will simply look to their darker skinned eastern options who aren't demanding so much money.

[edited by: mat_bastian at 9:39 pm (utc) on Dec. 13, 2003]

mattdwells




msg:99665
 9:38 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Christopher, giving up so early? ; > Everybody is multinational, so what. Google is a domestic company outsourcing to India. You can put a little sales office in Germany and call yourself multinational, but you are still a domestic company. And just establishing a point of presence for sales is not generally considered outsourcing. Moving core business that can be done locally, like R&D, offshore is more the norm.

What do you mean by "Google is hiring WITHIN"? I do not think that is relevant. What is relevant is that they are exploiting India's labor pool.

mayor




msg:99666
 9:40 pm on Dec 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

There a lot of good people in India that are as deserving of a good job as we are in America.

Sure, it pisses me off to see good jobs going offshore, but on the flip side we're all residents of the same planet and have wants and needs for ourselves and our families, no matter which side of globe we live on, and we all play a role in the well-being of worldwide commerce.

Think outside the USofA box and maybe we can step back and see that what's good for India, or anywhere else on the globe, is good for us in one way or another.

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