homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 184.73.52.98
register, free tools, login, search, subscribe, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Subscribe to WebmasterWorld
Home / Forums Index / Google / Google News Archive
Forum Library, Charter, Moderator: open

Google News Archive Forum

This 72 message thread spans 3 pages: 72 ( [1] 2 3 > >     
Do outward links increase pagerank?
will adding outward ranks help?
novasoft




msg:37553
 1:06 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have a site which has only a few of the pages spidered by google.

I have submitted my site to about a hundred other directory sites, where most of them have an individual page setup for me, where a link to my home page is included.

If i create a sitemap of sorts where i list all these pages on those sites where my site is linked back to, will that increase my pagerank?

As technically the googlebot will find those many more inward links to my site?

Thanks in advance

 

doc_z




msg:37554
 4:45 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Outgoing links decrease PR. However, they can improve your ranking even if PR is decreased.

too much information




msg:37555
 5:01 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

isn't that funny, G values incomming links, but outgoing links are bad. It's a wonder they sort any of it out at all.

I have a site that is PR4 throughout except my links page which is PR3. So point proven, but I still think it's silly.

doc_z




msg:37556
 5:09 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

too_much_information,

I didn't say outgoing links are bad. I have numerous outgoing links on my site.

I have a site that is PR4 throughout except my links page which is PR3. So point proven, but I still think it's silly.

Probably the PR3 isn't only caused by the outgoining links but by your link structure. At least this isn't a prove that outgoing links decrease PR. By the way, the outgoing links not only affect your link page but also the rest of your site.

Yidaki




msg:37557
 5:29 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

- Outbound Links Authority Site Linking [webmasterworld.com] (July 4, 2003)
- Outgoing Link Strategy [webmasterworld.com] (July 2, 2003)
- The Value of Outbound links now... [webmasterworld.com] (June 9, 2003)
- External Linking help or hurt? [webmasterworld.com] (Mar 21, 2003)
- How important are outbound links? [webmasterworld.com] (Dec 14, 2002)
- PR From Outbound Link? [webmasterworld.com] (Oct 14, 2002)

What i know for sure is that the anchor of outgoing links *can* boost the ranking of the linking page for the anchor phrase (still true today). Nuttin to do with pr, though.

A very recent discussion about the topic has been held last weekend at the Supporters Forum:
Boosting PR of DMOZ and Yahoo [webmasterworld.com] ... :P

Gus_R




msg:37558
 5:38 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Outgoing links are convenient for other points of view beyond losing pr. (i.e. you can get high quality traffic doing reciprocals with another related site).
Usually the benefits justify linking more than pr considerations.

MHes




msg:37559
 5:51 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hi

Since when did out going links decrease pr?.... NONSENSE.

PR is based on incoming links. The amount of links out makes no difference to the pages pr.

If you have a lot of links out on a page, then the pr 'sent on' will be divided, and this may include the amount given to a link to your homepage. In this respect your homepage or other internal pages may get less of the pr which is instead being leaked to other sites.

netnerd




msg:37560
 5:56 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I agree with you MHes - thats how it used to be anyway?

martinibuster




msg:37561
 5:57 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Outgoing links decrease PR.

Outgoing links do not decrease PR.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions on the net, and one that leads misinformed webmasters to devise link hoarding schemes.

Again, it bears repeating:

Outgoing links do not decrease PR.

<said in jest>Today is cooperate with Yidaki day, I forgot.</said in jest>

[edited by: martinibuster at 6:26 pm (utc) on Sep. 16, 2003]

2_much




msg:37562
 6:05 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

novasoft, back to your original idea of linking to pages where your site is listed - there are pro's and con's. On the one hand you would boost the PR of those pages, which would later pass PR back. On the other hand, it would create a closed loop and could get you in trouble for making a network.

Yidaki




msg:37563
 6:09 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hehehe, funny that you all start using strong words, typing bold and some even red. :) The threads i linked at msg #:5 show how controverse the thing has been discussed and how controverse they still get discussed.

- MHes is right
- mb is right
- and doc_z is also right

It's just how detailed you explain the concept. Worth to read the past threads, really. Instead of complaining and shouting, folks.

<edited out my wild description of the phenomenon - instead take that:>
Outbound Links Authority Site Linking [webmasterworld.com]

<edited in my wild description again cause mb has quoted it>
Outgoing links from home do decrease the PR that gets transferred to your inner pages - therefore the pr that gets transfered back to home decreases - therefore the pr of home (the site that actually links out) decreases.

Man, what a day ... {:

[edited by: Yidaki at 6:24 pm (utc) on Sep. 16, 2003]

doc_z




msg:37564
 6:17 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have explained this more than once in detail: Outgoing links decrease PR for the link page as well as for the rest of the page (in case of a normal link structure, i.e. if the link page has internal links). The reason is that less PR is transferred to the rest of your pages, i.e the internal links are devaluated.

Or in the view of the random surfer model: Due to the additional outgoing link the probability (which is proportional to real PR) of visiting a page of that site is (obviously) decreased.

Another argument is: the average PR is one (if there are no dead ends). Therefore, if the PR of a page is increased due to an additional incoming link, the PR of other pages must be decreased since no pages are added (i.e. the total PR is unchanged).

Before you write such statements as 'NONSENSE' or 'biggest misconceptions' you should try some numerical or analytical calculations.

martinibuster




msg:37565
 6:18 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Outgoing links from home do decrease the PR that gets transferred to your inner pages - therefore the pr that gets transfered back to home decreases - therefore the pr of home (the site that actually links out) decreases.

Yes. I think we have to be careful how we state this, and there has to be some sort of explanation, otherwise the concept becomes misconstrued into the "PR Leakage Boogey Man."

I also have to add that I almost fell off my chair when I saw docz's statement that, "Outgoing links decrease PR." It really has to be qualified with some sort of explanation in order for it to approach the truth of the matter.

docz, I appreciate your further explanation, and although I'm not going to say you're right or wrong, it's a more responsible statement than saying, "Outgoing links decrease PR."

too much information




msg:37566
 7:01 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I didn't say outgoing links were bad either. In fact I use them very strategically to send my visitors where I want them to go. (not any sort of scam, but to direct their thoughts away from searching for my competition) ;)

I was just saying that they way outgoing links are thought to decrease PR is silly. (got the discussion going though)

dave roberts




msg:37567
 8:14 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I read all of this theory. However, let me give you some current practical experience. I started a link campaign for a client who had a pagerank of 2. I put 200 outgoing links on his site, and his pagerank went up to 5 when there were only 20 linking back! The increase in pagerank was much faster than one would expect based on incoming links.

For another site, I put about 500 outgoing links on the site and the pagerank went from 2 to 4 right away.

So it's OK to talk about all these theories of pagerank, but I've seen it more than once--put a lot of relevant outgoing links onto a site and its pagrank goes up dramatically.

It's a lot of work to get 100 relevant reciprocal links, but worth it.

Dave Roberts

[edited by: Marcia at 9:14 pm (utc) on Sep. 16, 2003]
[edit reason] No sigs or URLs, please. [/edit]

doc_z




msg:37568
 8:29 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

dave_roberts,

I'm considering the effect of outgoing links, not of any kind of reciprocal links.

Of course, adding outgoing links might lead to additional incoming links and therefore to an increase on PR. However, I'm just talking about outgoing links (e.g. to Google which won't lead to additional incoming links). The effects of reciprocal links are more complicated (and was discussed recently in another thread).

twilight47




msg:37569
 9:12 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Yes, outbound links to our site will increase your PR 3 fold. Please contact us for proper anchor text to use on your site in order to optimize the great PR boost you will receive. Everyone is welcome to use this method.
;) Oh, I also have a bridge in NY I'ld like to sell cheap.

dave roberts




msg:37570
 9:14 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I, too, was talking about outgoing links. The first thing one does in a link campaign is to find a lot of potential reciprocal link sites, and put links to them on your site. Then you send them emails asking them to link.

My point is that, before the reciprocal links start coming in, the pagerank goes up.

dave

steveb




msg:37571
 9:44 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

"I'm considering the effect of outgoing links, not of any kind of reciprocal links."

Which is why your statement continues to be totally innaccurate and you should stop confusing people.

In the example novasoft is linking to pages that directly link back to him. Ignoring that is not just bad, it's bizarre.

It's 100% innacurate to say outbound links decrease PR. A link is a link. If it links to one of your own pages that links back to you, or if it links to a page on another domain that links back to you does not matter.

Novasoft creating one page that links to all these pages that link back to novasoft's domain will benefit his/her domain in exactly the same way as if those pages were on his/her domain. Likely the effect will actually be greater because those off domain pages will have their own link(s) coming to them and having at least two links to a page instead of one makes it far more likely that page won't be missed by the Google crawl.

"Outgoing links decrease PR" continues to be probably the most complete bit of nonsense posted here. It is not true, period. *Bad* linking decreases PR, whether it is outgoing linking that returns nothing to you, or linking to your own dead end pages.

Bottom line, having a "crawl page" of links to pages that link to you is good webmastering for other reasons, but also will work to increase your PR (microscopically) in the same way that internal linking can.

MHes




msg:37572
 10:19 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hi

Internal links and subsequent pr flow is probably subject to a different set of rules than external links in and out..

PR is supposed to be a calculation of 'votes' for that site. Manipulating pr within a site will not fool Google into thinking a site is better, nor is a site less good for linking out. In other words, internal 'votes' for yourself don't count. In my opinion, anchor text are the only real benefits for internal links.

Google wants to find links to follow. It could be argued that a site that links out in an informed and helpful way is a valuable asset to the worldwide web. Google may well recognise this.

"numerical or analytical calculations " have to be continually referenced against what Google is trying to achieve, namely quality and relevant sites. Making the assumption that links out reduces the value (pr) of a page is just not true and I'm sure Google will have factored that in.

I will always optimise on logic first and numerical or analytical calculations second.

LowLevel




msg:37573
 1:25 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

From a strictly mathematic point of view, doc_z is right. The main problem is that if someone says "outgoing links decrease PR", many webmasters will think "outgoing links are bad".

A "crude" assertion could push webmasters to avoid outgoing links, while a well explained statement can lead people to understand that outgoing links are an useful SEO (and usability) tool even if PR can decrease.

I agree with martinibuster when he says that we have to be careful how we explain PR distribution.

Sharper




msg:37574
 1:26 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

"In other words, internal 'votes' for yourself don't count. "

The problem with this statement is that they do, and it's really easy to tell that they do. You can set the PR of a page based on the link structure of your website. You can pretty easily predict what a page's PR is going to be purely based on where you link to it from your other internal pages, especially if it has no external links.

If I want to create a page with PR 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 or 0 for a particular site of mine, all I have to do is link to it correctly from an internal page of higher PR and wait for Google to spider it.

I think the most misunderstood concept about this whole thing is that a site doesn't have a PR number, only pages do. It doesn't matter who or what is linking to a page, internal or external, it's still a link.

I will grant you that a site can have a theme, anchor-text, etc... that can also be taken into account in SERPS, but for PR purposes, it's the pages that matter. The site is irrelevent except for how the other pages in the site are linked together.

But I'll tell you what. I'll trade you a link from any PR 6 homepage of yours on any topic for a link from a PR 1 content page of mine that is on-topic for your link, on a site with a PR 7 homepage. I'm willing to do that all day long, because it isn't the site, it's the page that matters for PR.

steveb




msg:37575
 8:19 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

"In other words, internal 'votes' for yourself don't count."

Nonsense, of course they do. The vast majority of pages on the Internet are "internal" with no external linking and these have PR.

How you vote for yourself is a central concept in good webmastering.

doc_z




msg:37576
 8:47 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

Internal links and subsequent pr flow is probably subject to a different set of rules than external links in and out..

"numerical or analytical calculations " have to be continually referenced against what Google is trying to achieve, namely quality and relevant sites. Making the assumption that links out reduces the value (pr) of a page is just not true and I'm sure Google will have factored that in.

MHes,

neither in the original papers nor in current implementation you will find any hint that PR is treaten differently for internal than for external links. You can easily make such investigations which will show this.

However, it seems that Google distinguishes between internal and external anchor text (but not PR).

By the way I'm making no assumptions. Apart from reading the papers and making numerical and analytical calculations, I have made detailed investigations of Google implementation/modification of the PR algorithm. Therefore, the statements are not only based on calculations but also on studying/verifying these things. Have you done this?

To say it again: I never said outgoing links are bad. I'm considering outgoing links (e.g. to Google) no kind of reciprocal links. By the way, even reciprocal links can decrease PR - it simply depends on the PR of the pages.

"Outgoing links decrease PR" continues to be probably the most complete bit of nonsense posted here.

People who post [webmasterworld.com] statements like this

Suppose theoretically the Widget and Blodgett industries start out on equal PR footing. If the Widget industry sites interlinked to each other via outbound links, and the Blodgett industry did not (for fear of a mythical PR link or any other reason), very soon the Widget industry in general would have higher PR than the Blodgett industry, and each individual Widget website would have higher PR than the parallel Blodgett sites.

shouldn't talk about 'nonsense'. Even with simplest math one can disprove this statement in one minute and one will find that the total PR (sum of all pages) of all Widget, respectively, Blodgett pages will be the same (of course, the distribution is different). The advantage of cross linking is due to anchor text and not PR. (And those who don't believe in that calculations can even verify this in practice.)

MHes




msg:37577
 10:15 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hi Sharper

Good point.

The internal link structure will effect pr of pages and thus you can dictate the importance of pages relative to each other.

But this is a whole different topic. As far as I can see, if you have a homepage of pr5 and 1 link out to an internal page, that page will probably be pr4. If you have 100 links out, the 100 internal pages will also be pr4. If you have pages which are 2 links from the homepage, they will be pr3 and I agree, you have made those pages less important. But if you have 1 link from your home page to another site it will not effect the pr being carried across to your internal pages. You can have 50 links to external sites which will have the pr divided between them, but your internal links still seem to carry equal pr (not divided) to your internal pages and are not effected by numbers of links out.

In this respect 'votes' for other sites are devalued by the number of links to other external sites, but internal 'votes' from a specific page are all treated the same, giving the same amount of pr. Thus, you cannot vote for yourself, but you can effect the pr flow through your site via the structure. The amount of pr you have is only gained originally from external sites and the distribution of that pr within your site is only effected by link structure and not number of internal or external links.

I have a site with most pages having 20 links out to other sites per page. All the pages linked from the homepage are 1 less pr, with pages that are two links away being 2 less pr. I have another site with no external links on any page and the same number of pages and structure.... identical pr.

Having more internal links pointing to a specific page seems to have little effect. The algo seems to have a big dampening factor to internal cross linking.

PR is becoming less important, the only really important element is allowing the spider to find all the pages and having a homepage pr of 4 or more. Once you have achieved that, relevancy and content is king.

doc_z




msg:37578
 10:29 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

As far as I can see, if you have a homepage of pr5 and 1 link out to an internal page, that page will probably be pr4. If you have 100 links out, the 100 internal pages will also be pr4. If you have pages which are 2 links from the homepage, they will be pr3 and I agree, you have made those pages less important. But if you have 1 link from your home page to another site it will not effect the pr being carried across to your internal pages. You can have 50 links to external sites which will have the pr divided between them, but your internal links still seem to carry equal pr (not divided) to your internal pages and are not effected by numbers of links out.

This is definitively incorrect. This is in disagreement with theory as well as (Google's) practice.

Dave_Hawley




msg:37579
 10:34 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

Truth is no-body here really knows whether outbound links decrease PR or not. I tend to believe they DON'T. I have seen many directories with good PR and very few inbound links.

Dave

doc_z




msg:37580
 11:41 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

Truth is no-body here really knows whether outbound links decrease PR or not.

There are people who have studied and veryfied this (in practice). I'm just one of them.

MHes




msg:37581
 11:50 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hi doc_z

We will just have to agree to disagree :)

Theory is just theory, but I have sites that appear to demonstrate internal linking is uneffected by number of links from a page. The only limit is 100 links per page, otherwise they are all treated the same. External links are a different ball game and importance is eroded with the number of links out.

Googles 'practice' reinforces this, look at directories that have loads of hard links per page, and loads of internal links from their home page. The pr flow is not effected. Where a page has a sudden drop in pr despite a homepage link, the reason will be something else, such as duplicate content, penalties etc.

Dave_Hawley




msg:37582
 12:01 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

There are people who have studied and veryfied this (in practice).

There are people that have "have studied and veryfied" the other side of the coin too. This is why the statement "Truth is no-body here really knows whether outbound links decrease PR or not." is the only *fact*.

How do you explain directories, having far more outbound links than inbound, having good PR?

Dave

This 72 message thread spans 3 pages: 72 ( [1] 2 3 > >
Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google News Archive
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved