homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 54.196.201.253
register, free tools, login, search, pro membership, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Become a Pro Member
Home / Forums Index / Google / Google News Archive
Forum Library, Charter, Moderator: open

Google News Archive Forum

This 72 message thread spans 3 pages: < < 72 ( 1 2 [3]     
Do outward links increase pagerank?
will adding outward ranks help?
novasoft




msg:37553
 1:06 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have a site which has only a few of the pages spidered by google.

I have submitted my site to about a hundred other directory sites, where most of them have an individual page setup for me, where a link to my home page is included.

If i create a sitemap of sorts where i list all these pages on those sites where my site is linked back to, will that increase my pagerank?

As technically the googlebot will find those many more inward links to my site?

Thanks in advance

 

mundonet




msg:37613
 8:22 am on Sep 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

I vote for worker. :]

-I'm-not-signing-because-the-name-is-already-in-the-left-column

bnc929




msg:37614
 1:43 am on Sep 27, 2003 (gmt 0)

Outgoing links overall hurt site PR, for the reasons doc_z and sharper mentioned. It isn't a theory, anymore than 2+2 = 4 is a theory. As you can verify this with basic math.

Google cares only about pages, not sites. I have a page with a PR of 7 that gets it from internal links exclusively. This page is #1 for a very competitive keyword. If Google ever started devaluing internal links I'd be the first to know. Google cannot do that though because there is no way to accurately define "external" and "internal" links since domains can hold more than one site and some sites have more than one domain. Additionally you'd have a problem appropriately ranking subpages. You can read through Brin and Page's thesis and you'll find them talking about ranking pages, not sites.

The idea that a homepage is 5, next step down is 4, next step down is 3, as an automatic is flawed. If you see behavior like that it is either because of the toolbar guessing or a product of your internal linking structure. It is very possible for a subpage to equal or exceed a homepage in PR.

The whole premise of giving bonuses to outgoing links is flawed from a usability standpoint. People erroneously believe that hub sites are more useful than authority sites and so they think that a hub site, with many outgoing links, should outrank an authority site. This is flawed because these people fail to recognize that the hub site IS the search engine. Why would a search engine want to send a surfer to a page that is just links to other pages? Shouldn't the goal of a search engine be to send the person directly to the source? Not to a middle man? There is no way that the hub site knows about more content than the search engine either since the search engine has crawled that hub site and thus has also crawled the sites that that hub site links to.

What Google does do is treat on-page anchor text much the same way as bold text -- that is it is weighted slightly higher. That however happens regardless if the link is internal or external and that is the extent of it.

If you still believe that outgoing links help, I invite you to read the following:

[iprcom.com...]

The above paper provides examples with the math spelled right out for you so there can be no question of accuracy. It will illustrate exactly how PR behaves and why outgoing links do hurt a site as a whole.

[www-db.stanford.edu...]

Brin and Page's paper is a must read for anyone interested in Google and from some of the comments I take it many of you have not yet read it.

PS - One search engine does emphasize outgoing links -- Teoma, but not for the main search results. Teoma serves two sets of results and it is only for the secondary set that outgoing links help. If Google ever implemented an outgoing link bonus it would likely take this form for the reasons mentioned above.

bnc929




msg:37615
 1:50 am on Sep 27, 2003 (gmt 0)

Couple more things.

The idea that what goes around comes around is nice -- but not mathematically sound. If you ran the math and kept that little bit in your site you would have more at the end. This doesn't mean you shouldn't link out -- but lets not cloud the facts with theories on a utopian world.

Also a single link often takes out only a small amount -- where people really mess up is when they link out on every page of their site.

For many sites, by linking out on every page, you can be giving a full PR 6 or more away. I once had a link on every page of a 13k page site, I removed it, the site instantly shot up to a PR 7. So all those little pennies can add up.

seomike2003




msg:37616
 3:49 am on Sep 27, 2003 (gmt 0)

If out bound links are bad then why do directories which are almost 100% outbound hold such high scores?

The only real thing that holds them together in high score is the cross linking. I mean common who freaking links to their listing in ODP or in Yahoo? Probably no one.

Directories like ODP and Yahoo are nothing more then a link farm if you look at it technically.

Mathmatically? I think Google looks for unbalanced outbound and inbound links as GOOD. The biggest way to prove someone has exploited the link pop method is to only have links going to people that link back to you. Wouldn't that cancel out the entire (link= a vote theory).

If I'm running for Pres. and you're running for Pres. I vote for you and you vote for me we get no where. That is kinda dumb right?

kaled




msg:37617
 10:03 am on Sep 27, 2003 (gmt 0)

I read a summary of the maths some time ago. I did not consider it a worthwhile use of my time to read (and understand) such maths at depth simply because I realise that algos change and develop over time. It is highly unlikely that Google's pagerank algos have not changed.

I have removed the Google toolbar but before I did, I noticed that one page with absolutely no inbound links (deliberately) had a PR one less than the main index page. So either the PR algo has changed or the Toolbar PR is wholly unreliable. Actually, I think both are true.

Identifying links as external/internal may be tricky to do with 100% reliability, but it is easy to do with better than 90% reliability so it is foolish to assume that Google does not make a distinction. In any case, you cannot make an external link appear to be an internal link so if there were any doubt, a link could simply be treated as external.

Google may make no distinction between internal and external links, but without conducting extensive tests, it is impossible to be sure. My own feeling is that PR would be more immune to manipulation if a distinction were made therefore, internal and external links should be treated separately.

Kaled.

CCowboy




msg:37618
 3:09 pm on Sep 27, 2003 (gmt 0)

Links pages do not decrease page rank within your site! Too many outbound links will eventually decrease the passed outbound PR value if you do not have good reciprocal inbound links.

I vote Yes... Have a Links Page!

worker




msg:37619
 3:32 pm on Sep 27, 2003 (gmt 0)

Link to anyone and everyone that is related to your site, if you think your visitors would like the other site. Quality is the key. The whole point behind PR is that good sites will rise to the top. While it is subjective, as owner of your own site, you get to decide which sites are good and which aren't. Be free with your links to quality sites, and everyone wins.

benc007




msg:37620
 8:27 am on Sep 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

bnc929,

"For many sites, by linking out on every page, you can be giving a full PR 6 or more away. I once had a link on every page of a 13k page site, I removed it, the site instantly shot up to a PR 7. So all those little pennies can add up. "

Were you linking on every page of your PR6 site to an external site or to your home page?

Dave_Hawley




msg:37621
 4:53 am on Sep 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

RE: It isn't a theory, anymore than 2+2 = 4 is a theory

Not so at all. Google is very protective of it's methods for calculating Page Rank etc so unless an *official from Google* spells it out, it's simply a theory. No matter how loud, or as many times you say otherwise, this *fact* will not change.

RE: If you still believe that outgoing links help, I invite you to read the following:

[iprcom.com...]

Agree that it is a very interesting read. However, the one question that spring to my mind is "If this all *fact* why does this page only have a PR6?"

RE: If out bound links are bad then why do directories which are almost 100% outbound hold such high scores?

I have asked the same question and never got a defintive reply. I have seen directory categories (PR8) with many outward links and about 5 inwards links from PR 6 sites and less.

Dave

caustic




msg:37622
 5:09 am on Sep 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

Not so at all. Google is very protective of it's methods for calculating Page Rank etc so unless an *official from Google* spells it out, it's simply a theory. No matter how loud, or as many times you say otherwise, this *fact* will not change.

It can be proven without Google's ok, and has.

RE: If out bound links are bad then why do directories which are almost 100% outbound hold such high scores?

I have asked the same question and never got a defintive reply. I have seen directory categories (PR8) with many outward links and about 5 inwards links from PR 6 sites and less.

DMOZ internal pages get PR almost entirely from the home page (PR9).

Dave_Hawley




msg:37623
 5:22 am on Sep 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

RE: It can be proven without Google's ok, and has.

Oh really? Just how many pages of the 3 billion have you used this *theory* on and come up with the same PR as Google?

While it maybe a *good theory* it is still just that, a theory and not fact.

Dave

kaled




msg:37624
 11:02 am on Sep 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

As I understand it, PR is determined by inward links. Outward links should have no negative effects (unless linking to a bad area). Therefore, a directory page can have a high PR because the outward links simply do not affect its PR in a negative way. Perhaps they have a positive effect but this is likely to be small.

There seems to be enormous confusion with respect to outward links and PR so I'll explain.

Suppose I have a page with no outward links and a PR of 5. If I decide to add some outward links (to other websites) there will be no loss of PR. However, the PR of the pages I have linked to will rise slightly. Suppose I decide to add a few more outward links. The PR of the newly linked pages will rise but the PR of the previously linked pages may fall slightly.

Some people are of the opinion that you should use your high PR pages to link exclusively to your own website in order to boost the PR of the site as a whole. It is possible that this is correct, however, if Google treats internal and external links separately this theory could be nonsense.

If you have a number of sites (domains) it is likely that cross-linking them would be an effective use of PR. However, Google may be able to detect excessive cross-linking and deduct the PR that results.

The idea that outward links are bad is NONSENSE. The majority of links to my website are javascript/cgi. I suspect that in many cases this is because webmasters believe (wrongly) that outward links reduce PR and since Google does not follow such links they believe that such links help maintain their own high PR.

At this point, I think it would be helpful if GoogleGuy were to jump in and say definitively that outward links do not leak PR. If he could say whether internal and external links are treated separately so much the better.

Kaled.

This 72 message thread spans 3 pages: < < 72 ( 1 2 [3]
Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google News Archive
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Home ¦ Free Tools ¦ Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About ¦ Library ¦ Newsletter
WebmasterWorld is a Developer Shed Community owned by Jim Boykin.
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved