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This 135 message thread spans 5 pages: 135 ( [1] 2 3 4 5 > >     
If Google dropped the ODP
what a swing
caine




msg:40880
 11:20 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I've been doing a lot of link hunting, and there is a heck of a lot of sites with ODP incoming links only with PR's of 4 to 6. Now what would happen if G decided that the ODP wasn't up to scratch.

note: no bashing or flaming of the ODP or Google.

Just your view of how the world of Google and SERPs in your sector of the industry would change?

In mine's it would be massive, especially for companies who have enjoyed an extended relationship within the ODP only. There is thousands of them.

?

 

Marcia




msg:40881
 11:30 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

If Google stopped using ODP it would mean sites losing that additional link and PR from the Google directory, which would be a sizeable loss in PR from that source for some sites.

I doubt they'd discount PR altogether from what's still in ODP itself, and overall the recognized topicality of those links can't hurt long term at all.

caine




msg:40882
 11:41 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

How would G deal with the re-evaluation of the web without the ODP as its backbone - if that is stripped in its entirity then i can't see it having anything less for a lot of companies branded sites - a massive impact, if the ODP was the main source. Certainly the sites that i feel would feel it are not SEO-ed at all and rely on that link, though whether they get visibility or sales from the ODP - PR connection is another question altogether worth exploring.

How it would affect SEO-ed strong divisible specific content structured sites with the necessary backup reciprocal linking strategies, i have to agree would be minimal. I only know my industry to a degree, though i would have to presume there a several hundred's of thousands of site's that would feel something across the commercial world, in what respect is the question i suppose that i am asking?

twilight47




msg:40883
 11:47 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Well Google hasn't updated their ODP based directory in over 6 months (at least not for our category) and that's another major link for a lot of sites. I don't know what their plan might be?

caine




msg:40884
 11:49 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

thats probably becuase the ODP has just updated the directory after a long stint of stillness.

rfgdxm1




msg:40885
 11:53 pm on Sep 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

If Google dropped the ODP it would make little difference. Any site that depends on the ODP is pathetic. I could get more links with more PageRank that that from the Google directory while drunk and half asleep. All it would take is a few e-mails. Serious, if that ODP listing means that much for your site, you need to rethink your strategy.

caine




msg:40886
 12:00 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

rfgdxm1,

certainly not for my sites - give me a little justice, but there are a lot of sites are dependant on it.

rfgdxm1




msg:40887
 12:11 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

Seriously Caine. What is the PageRank of the ODP category that you are listed in? If it ain't PR7, then you really need to get links from teenagers with PR6 home pages out there. YES, they exist.

stever




msg:40888
 5:07 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

You've got a stranglehold on those top positions for teenagers and PR6, rfgdxm1, but you know it's against the Google guidelines to mirror content. ;)

Yes, I agree with caine that in quite a number of areas, the loss of two of the only four links that make some small businesses/informational sites visible would have a quite dramatic effect on the rankings for them. Especially with the effective "unofficial link farm" that one sees in some small areas, such as hobbies or towns, with people redistributing their ODP/Google Directory wealth. Many of them probably wouldn't even realise what had happened.

No, they're not "pathetic", they just don't realise where their web visibility comes from - some of them have the belief that people come to their site just because they have created one and it's relevant. After all, that's what Google tells them, if they ever find Google.

Having said that, many of the areas which would have their SERPS affected tend to have other sources for custom than pure SERPS-driven traffic, which makes them doubly un-"pathetic".

Powdork




msg:40889
 6:33 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

Personally, I think it would have a huge impact. Not from pr standings, but in the serps in general. This is only because I feel the anchor text of your Google Directory listing weighs more than other anchor. Much more. And of course if any site relies solely on the ODP, they would be screwed if Google stopped using the ODP as the Google Directory AND stopped spidering the ODP. These sites would still be OK and the problem that IMO results from their overweighting of ODP anchor text if Google dropped DMOZ for something else. Of course, there isn't anything else even close.
Given that, what would be the proper syntax for a robots.txt disallowing Gbot from the Google directory?

bull




msg:40890
 8:03 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

for me it would have a huge impact as a subdirectory, the core of my site, is listed three times in the odp and i do not have many incoming links. for the odp in general it would surely mean shorter unreviewed queues - who will still submit there?

MrSpeed




msg:40891
 12:19 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

I won't bash ODP but I will praise Zeal and hope that one day Google switches to Zeal.

percentages




msg:40892
 12:27 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

In my cats numerous sites get to the first page purely because of ODP and Yahoo links. Both are being manipulated by the minority, while the majority of links are much less important because of the lower PR's. Usually lower because links come from deep pages, not necessarily low PR sites.

Look closely at the ODP and Yahoo directories and go figure why sites discussing identical subjects are listed in such widely varying places. A few seem to get those PR7 links in high level cats, while sites discussing the same subjects and of equal quality are in PR3 cats.

I'm not suggesting "manipulation & conspiracy" here, it is more likely the editors are simply lazy and have no clue what impact they have on the economics. Scary to think these folks control billions of dollars.

This issue is huge, Google needs to think about it. While Google spends all its time trying to stop hidden text and duplicate pages it encourages people to seek bogus links from a few directories that are way to powerful.... fundamental flaw in PageRank if you ask me!

A vote should be a vote, not log10 more important because it is a vote from a dubious Yahoo or ODP editor.

But, dearest Google, if you want to play by these dumb rules we will simply create nonsense sites that sit nicely into these nonsense directories and from them we will create nonsense links to our real sites so we can artificially boost our PR.

A daft and pathetic game you have driven us into.

Of course once Inktomi has the lion's share we can forget all about this, it understands democracy!

Bottom line, Google should ditch the ODP and re-evaluate the real importance of the Yahoo directory. While at it re-evaluate how PR is passed.

From what I see SERP's generally would be much better, SEO tactics would need to change, and the Google user might just benefit ;)

mil2k




msg:40893
 12:39 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

Now what would happen if G decided that the ODP wasn't up to scratch.

As far as I am concerned my clients would not take much of a hit ;)

LizardGroupie




msg:40894
 7:01 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

If Google dropped ODP, it would be a horrible blow to the quality of Internet searches. It would damage Google's credibility.

On the contrary, ODP links should be worth significantly more in Google's ranking of sites than links from anywhere else.

atadams




msg:40895
 7:17 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

It's hard for me to talk about this issue without bashing the ODP, so I'll stay out.

BigDave




msg:40896
 8:23 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

It's impossible to tell how much of a hit it would be. I haven't even started up IE for a while, so I will just go and see what the PR of the google and ODP links are.

Google directory is a PR7, with 51 links.
ODP is PR6 with 59 links.

My home page is a high PR6 (I can tell because all my second level pages are now PR6)

This would probably change me to a high PR5 *given the current scale*, But the scale would totally change around without these two directories.

The other place that would cause a hit is that it would affect all the other links to my site, especially those that get a large part of their PR from the ODP. But that would also be affected by the rescaling of the PR base.

My site lists 1360 backlinks in google and 2200 on ATW. I would still have plenty of PR, even with all the changes. And lots of incoming links with whatever link text that they wanted to use.

I think that in the final talley, I would come out ahead if the 2 copies of ODP were dropped. Everyone that depends on those links would sink like a stone in the SERPs, while all my other links would support me.

I honestly think that there is a much bigger danger of the yahoo directory being pulled than ODP, and there isn't much danger of that happening either.

hutcheson




msg:40897
 8:26 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

There are two issues here: Google indexing the ODP pages, just like it does any other site (which it ain't gonna stop doing, and which has the main effect on page rank), and the Google directory, which in effect doubles the effect of ODP page rank when spidered (since it's a foggy mirror). Removing the Google Open Directory would reduce the effect of the ODP on page rank, but would not remove it. (dmoz.org has its own high page rank, calculated by incoming links just like any other site, and commensurate with the amount of development effort invested in it.)

Google started using the ODP for its own benefit, not for the ODP's. And if it is to Google's benefit to stop using it, they will. If they want a non-commercial-driven directory, there is no real alternative. And Google may think that's some benefit to its users. After all, if you want commercials, you can pay Google for them.

rfgdxm1




msg:40898
 8:32 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

>Removing the Google Open Directory would reduce the effect of the ODP on page rank, but would not remove it. (dmoz.org has its own high page rank, calculated by incoming links just like any other site, and commensurate with the amount of development effort invested in it.)

Which AFAICT is due to the fact Google links to the ODP at [directory.google.com...] and the respective ODP ODP categories. In other words, the high page rank of dmoz.org is almost totally due to the Google directory links to it.

MurphyDog




msg:40899
 8:41 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

I'm not suggesting "manipulation & conspiracy" here, it is more likely the editors are simply lazy and have no clue what impact they have on the economics. Scary to think these folks control billions of dollars.

Accusing the editors of being lazy because they don't edit their directory with an eye towards revenue for the sites they look at is kind of weird. It's not their job to worry about webmaster's profit making businesses, but to worry about providing valuable resources to users of the Internet.

It is also not to help Google rationalize PageRank. If Google dropped ODP, ODP would go on. There are thousands if not millions of sites that use ODP data, and Google is only one of them.

berli




msg:40900
 9:20 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

Look closely at the ODP and Yahoo directories and go figure why sites discussing identical subjects are listed in such widely varying places. A few seem to get those PR7 links in high level cats, while sites discussing the same subjects and of equal quality are in PR3 cats.

Percentages, I agree with you. I think it's one of the hazards of a multi-person project done over time. Some editors don't know what they're doing in a particular cat. Also, some links got listed before there was a subcat. And some links are just in the wrong place.

I've run into this annoyance myself, and there's little you can do about it except become an editor yourself.

rfgdxm1




msg:40901
 10:50 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

>'m not suggesting "manipulation & conspiracy" here, it is more likely the editors are simply lazy and have no clue what impact they have on the economics. Scary to think these folks control billions of dollars.

Dude, your reality checked just bounced at the clue bank. If you honestly think that ODP editors control billions of dollars, you are so out of touch with the truth of the Internet I fear for you.

EliteWeb




msg:40902
 10:58 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

If google were to drop dmoz they would need some plans up their sleve to help figure out page ranking which couldnt be that hard for the changes. Just think about how other people bring up their results, clustering and housing types of links and sites into categories or something more fun than that.

Google could easily enough put up it's own directory structure or integrate someone elses into its site. The directory, I wonder how much people use it currently, only google would know. Without the DMOZ structure it would be a longer process to get in Google at the rate its currently at or Yahoo would get more money from submission but I doubt the big G! would want something that fun to happen!

hutcheson




msg:40903
 11:19 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

>Google could easily enough put up it's own directory structure
Not so. Building a directory structure is not an easy task. Yahoo has hundreds of man-years invested in theirs. The ODP has more. I remember when every wannabe-portal had their own directory. When Lycos was dropping their homegrown version for the ODP, I spent some time comparing Lycos to the ODP. Face it, Lycos simply didn't have the knowledge base to do an adequate job (and that was by the standards of four years ago.) Other portals (AOL, etc.) were no better. Looksmart got a quick start by some serious, um, hand-spidering of the competition (yes, I saw my own descriptions appearing there word for word and typo for typo), and than faded pretty quickly.

>.. or integrate someone elses into its site.
True enough. But whose? Looksmart pays people to host it. But it's definitely third horse in a two-horse race.

>The directory, I wonder how much people use it currently, only google would know.
A fair question. There are directory users, and search users, and I think they are genetic predispositions to use one or the other. For the "hoi polloi," searching is easier: and marketroids who targeting loosely held discretionary spending, will always want to go after the easy marks. People looking for information may tend to spend more time in directories....

It is clear enough that the people who run internet portals think it's important for every portal to have its own directory, and before the ODP, they were willing to spend hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of dollars to build their own. It's not so clear whether there was valid reason to believe that.

Powdork




msg:40904
 4:45 am on Sep 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

I would like to again suggest that Google simply stop spidering their own directory. It is duplicate content (almost). If it were updated a tad more frequently by Google it would be even moreso.

Anyone else hosted on the mid-atlantic coast (isabel) having server problems?

greenfrog




msg:40905
 6:00 am on Sep 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

i will personally cherish the day that google drops the odp.....

oops are we not supposed to bash....OH WELL.

Links from the ODP are not that significant, forget about it and get more worthy links.

I cast my vote for ZEAL!

John_Creed




msg:40906
 6:21 am on Sep 19, 2003 (gmt 0)

First off, Zeal is not a better directory than ODP. Not even close.

Secondly, if ODP were one day dropped from Google, it would be unfortunate and PR all across the board would drop slightly for some...a lot for others, but it wouldn't be a big deal as far as the SERPS go.

But I feel that massive directories like DMOZ(And Google's version) are good for the 'net.

Marcia




msg:40907
 6:27 am on Sep 19, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>directories like DMOZ(And Google's version) are good for the 'net.

Can't help but agree with that. There are certain things that are easier to find using a directory than with any search engine. A good directory has certain functions that simply can't be replaced by a search engine and never will be.

angiolo




msg:40908
 7:14 am on Sep 19, 2003 (gmt 0)

> There are certain things that are easier to find using a directory than with any search engine

Exactly. There are sites having excellent content that have no optimization at all: you can hardly find them using search engines. For example I found sites having titles like page1, page2.

On searching niches or specialized directories DMOZ is very useful.

Powdork




msg:40909
 7:51 am on Sep 19, 2003 (gmt 0)

Someone recently posted they were unable to find decent info on buying a widget. Everything was affiliate laden from the search engines but this person wanted to find an actual widget manufacturer or retailer with an address and phone number. The DMOZ category had this info without the affiliates. They are very good at this. Thats not enough reason to duplicate content, in my opinion.

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