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xcandyman




msg:97329
 11:41 am on Sep 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

I know that I am digging up buried conversations/arguments but I feel more and more Google has some kind of partnerships with big shopping sites and shopping portals.

I have noticed at the bottom of the Froogle page is:

Try your search on other sites:
Amazon - AOL - eBay - MSN - Yahoo!
BizRate - DealTime - Epinions - mySimon

Does that list sound very familier or what? Basically all of these sites not so long ago was dominating nearly all shopping type searches are in some places are still apparent.

A bit of coincidence?

Thanks...

 

Brett_Tabke




msg:97330
 1:54 pm on Sep 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

So what is the question?

xcandyman




msg:97331
 2:32 pm on Sep 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

There was no question just a observation, I just wanted to know other peoples opinions on this. I find it's a bit strange how nearly all of the links to other sites on froogle are the ones that were dominating the shop relating serps not so long ago.

Thanks

dougmcc1




msg:97332
 2:45 pm on Sep 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

So what is the question?

"A bit of coincidence?"

A bit of coincidence?

I don't have a comment on that, but I have to wonder how in the world Yahoo and MSN have a PR of 9. Google has said their PR is completely natural but come on, Yahoo and MSN are 2 of the biggest sites out there. And they are competition to Google - is that coincidence?

taxpod




msg:97333
 3:57 pm on Sep 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

Backlinks for:

Google.com = 380,000
Yahoo.com = 857,000
MSN.com = 191,000

So while I can believe that MSN is a 9, I have trouble seeing Yahoo as a 9. This is especially true when Google is said to be a natural 10. I can believe that Google makes themselves a 10 but given the rest of the PRs, I find it difficult to see Google as a natural 10.

Do you think that Google's BLs are just of that much higher a quality than Yahoo's?

Net_Wizard




msg:97334
 4:15 pm on Sep 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

There is no coincidence...everything in this world is through natural consequence or by design.

As for Google and those corporate shopping sites...It's just natural that there would be an above normal relationship among them, it's called....alliances...partnership...networking...etc..

Before anybody jump and say that this is just another conspiracy theory ;)...FYI, alliances in the business world is just as natural as the air we breath in.

'If' Google indeed have some kind of agreement with those sites...I say, Business Point of View, Google is pretty smart in having some control with those sites.

The only problem here, is that there's no concrete proof that such alliance exist.

However, recent events are pointing at that direction.

Google have become aggressive and is no longer content of being the favorite of the masse but toying with the idea of absolute dominance not only of the search sector but the intire internet if that's possible.

Google now is all about control...control how you should build and promote your site...control of your toolbar...control of your perception of other sites through the PR rating...control of whose ads should appear in your site.

Google is no longer the underdog of the internet. Slowly but surely it's turning to become the bully of the internet and majority of the webmasters are just happy to hand over their control, in a silver platter, to Google.

If you go to Amazon...I don't know how many of you notice this...literally, Amazon is giving their users away to Google to the detriment of Amazon affiliates...there are 2 types of Google search box, search the web and Amazon/Google search combo box...and of course the sponsored listings. Is this just an added 'functionality' to 'enhanced user experience'?

1. Amazon heavily promote Google(not just the adwords) + 2. Google flood their top 10 serps with Amazon products =?

Each scratch each other's back. Is this good for Google?

IMO, short term, it is, it's just natural but with this kind of arrangements there would be always areas/things that would be compromise which in turn would have a cummulative effect on the long term goal of Google.

How they handle it, will remain to be seen that is if they can recover.

Cheers

Morgan




msg:97335
 5:41 pm on Sep 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

Control of your toolbar? It's the Google toolbar.

Net_Wizard




msg:97336
 6:13 pm on Sep 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

Pardon my ignorance of proper english language, it's not my natural language.

'your toolbar' - as in descriptive(?) of the Google Toolbar 'in your computer' or my english is just way off? :)

I gather you like the auto update of 'your toolbar'?

Cheers

peterdaly




msg:97337
 7:55 pm on Sep 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

I easily can see amazon products being high in the SERPS without manipulation.

All over on the web, if people refer to a book, they usually have a link to Amazon. This happens whether they are an affiliate or not, and has been going on for some time.

I can see Google as being a legit PR10. They have many more links from likes of cnn etc. with the "search this site or google" boxes. Don't see links to yahoo or msn like that.

-Pete

Net_Wizard




msg:97338
 3:45 am on Sep 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Huh?

All over on the web, if people refer to a book, they usually have a link to Amazon. This happens whether they are an affiliate or not, and has been going on for some time.

I think you are too nice to link to Amazon without making an extra buck because everybody I know who link to Amazon is an affiliate.

Secondly, your theory of an Amazon page ranking higher 'because' of the affiliates links is pure bs. Look at the url of those pages in Google...it is not the same URL structure for affiliates...in fact it is too clean for an Amazon product page. Some of the Amazon URL are even 'inner' pages.

If you are remotely aware of the Amazon affiliate program, 'nobody' links to inner pages simply because it changes your commission structure.

Any more theory of why an Amazon product page would rank higher?

They have many more links from likes of cnn etc. with the "search this site or google" boxes.

Are you aware that Google also sell their search services? CNN 'is' paying Google for that service therefore on the part of CNN this is truly an added service 'for their visitors'. CNN does not display any of the adwords. There is no back scratching with CNN. Have you tried doing a search on Google box at CNN? If so, do you see any adwords on the result? It's Overture what CNN promotes.

Any othe major site you care to point that have a google search box prominently?

Iguana




msg:97339
 10:38 am on Sep 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Secondly, your theory of an Amazon page ranking higher 'because' of the affiliates links is pure bs.

Are you sure who is spreading the bs? Perhaps a dose of IMHO is in order.

I did a search for a metallica album . Top result is a url 'www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000000?v=glance' (Amazon browse page)

I checked backlinks and I found affiliate links with the url of 'http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000000/affid'

I don't think this was true a few months ago, though. Maybe Google engineers helped Amazon to redirect in a more Google friendly way.

Net_Wizard




msg:97340
 2:41 pm on Sep 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Sorry Iguana,

But I can't duplicate your scenario. I can't find an Amazon url with your query and I get an error page if I try directly entering the URL you posted.

However, try 'web database applications' and check for the backlinks of each Amazon URL...and what do you think are the backlinks for those pages? Affiliates? Regular or internal links?

None of the above, this is according to Google...
Your search - link:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/... did not match any documents.

I tried a lot of them, the same thing. Why? As I have posted already, affiliates have a different URL structure for linking to a specific page and it's nowhere close to what's in Google index plus the fact that Amazon uses session ID in their redirected URL.

So, the big question is...How did those pages went up so high in the serp?

Maybe Google engineers helped Amazon to redirect in a more Google friendly way.

If that is true...Isn't it considered as manual manipulation? It takes two to tango right? Wouldn't it be considered as preferential treatment for Amazon? I thought Google is the bastion of 'fair play' or am I just being idealistic? ;)

As of this posting...web database applications...have only 2 Amazon URL listed. Will it stick? We'll see.

Cheers

Iguana




msg:97341
 4:36 pm on Sep 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hi Net_wizard

I removed the ASIN number in case I was too specific

Here is the full link
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008OWZG?v=glance

try it on Google and click on the slayer_X backlink to see the Affiliate ref in action

Net_Wizard




msg:97342
 7:17 am on Sep 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Okay :)

Now, let's try your example and let's be logical about it.

The URL at Google is this...

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/xxxxxxxx?v=glance

where 'xxxxxxxx' is the item ID

Using your example, by searching link:www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/xxxxxxxx?v=glance comes up with supposedly backlinks for the URL.

In the result, the #1 have Amazon links but none of them is pointing to 'xxxxxxxx'. How did it become a backlink for 'xxxxxxxx'?

#2-#4 are Amazon internal pages

The remaining are Amazon affiliates with this kind of URL structure...

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/xxxxxxxx/affiliate-20

where 'affiliate-20' is a unique affiliate name. Meaning to say, each link pointing to xxxxxxxx is a unique Amazon URL. It could be like...

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/xxxxxxxx/affiliate1
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/xxxxxxxx/affiliate2
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/xxxxxxxx/affiliate3

all leading to the same page. If a spider happened to visit all 3 links above and if the algorithm have a penalty for duplicate URL, the above URLs would have caused a penalty for the product page 'xxxxxxxx'. Of course as human we recognize it as just an affiliate links, no need to penalize the page. But, how can a spider recognize that? Programatically, a software can even flag it for spamming.

To add confusion, when somebody click on the above URL, the user is redirected to this URL...

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/xxxxxxxx/affiliate-20/111-111111-1111111

where '111-111111-1111111' is either a session ID or a cookie. What do we got so far?

One product page = [multiple unique affiliate URL] x [no. of users who actually clicked on those URLs or spiders that visited those URLs] = potentially hundreds of thousands of combinations if not millions of unique URL.

How did Google ends up with just 1 URL then for product 'xxxxxxxx'?

Anybody can argue that Google simply removed the affiliate ID and the session/cookie ID. If that is the case, that implies Google have a special filter for Amazon because any programmer know that it requires hard coding in order to do that. So now we have 101 factors in the algorithm ;)

But even that, does not make any sense at all. Let's look again at Google-Amazon URL.

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/xxxxxxxx?v=glance

compare it to an affiliate URL without all the ID's

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/xxxxxxxx/

Interesting, huh?

.../tg/detail/-/ compared to
.../ASIN/

How did Google arrived at .../tg/detail/-/ when none of the affiliates have that URL structure? Makes you wonder, right?

Even if Google managed to reach the ..../tg/detail/-/ part of Amazon, it still have to clean the Amazon URL of reference ID, session ID and other parameters. Google would do that for Amazon? Wow! How about for the rest of small dynamic sites?

Not only that, Google then bend backwards to find affiliates links that has .../ASIN/xxxxxxxx in the URL and credit it to the .../tg/detail/-/xxxxxxxx URL. Wow and double Wow. A lot of us here with dynamic URL would be jumping with joy if Google would do that for us.

Imagine the manpower and the crunching power that Google employ just to clean Amazon URL and finding the backlinks for it.

Also, is it not that the fact we know here in WW is that when we link to a URL...that would be the 'exact' URL listed at Google's index? Well, Amazon scenario just broke that belief.

So, how did Google do it? You tell me ;)

Iguana




msg:97343
 8:16 am on Sep 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Google is capable of following some links and giving credit to the eventual endpage - I have a backlink from a site.com/out.cgi?xxx type of link.

A bit of cloaking by Amazon and just direct Googlebot to the browse page - while real surfers go elsewhere?

dougmcc1




msg:97344
 3:08 pm on Sep 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

Net_Wizard and Iguana lost me but...

Google.com = 380,000
Yahoo.com = 857,000
MSN.com = 191,000

So while I can believe that MSN is a 9, I have trouble seeing Yahoo as a 9.


apple.com (PR10) = 87,500
macromedia.com (PR10) = 60,600

Sorry I still don't see how MSN is a 9.

mud




msg:97345
 6:50 pm on Sep 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

Sorry I still don't see how MSN is a 9.

It's about the quality of the links, not the quantity.

Google is capable of following some links and giving credit to the eventual endpage - I have a backlink from a site.com/out.cgi?xxx type of link.

This is very true, I've had the same experience. Furthermore, google has been counting Amazons affiliate backlinks as links to the actual product page for some time now. It's not weird, it's not a conspiracy, it happens with cj.com affiliates as well, it's just how google works.

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