| 8:32 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Great Point Marcia
I would like to see Google index PDF file differently.
Some times because of PDF being so big my computer has crashed trying to open the program and load the file.
In general the results are not good and its not about stats either, google may have the same number of PDF files or even Amazon pages but the fact remains that searching for hotel accommodation brings you nothing but PDF.
Their are too many different search results to list and would be pointless to list more as we all agree to the problem (well nearly all of us)
I also think the spidering of interactive url's will cause more problems. I do php programing and it would not be difficult for me to make loads of links forcing Google to crawl them and index the content. All the same content just in different locations and some different picture files etc.
So whats the answer?
Go back to basics, create great sites, get plenty of links and content.
If its not broke don't fix it!
That's the solution, Google you are trying to hard and you will ruin the quality and your perfect reputation.
| 10:16 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Well, at this point in time there are a load of pages showing for one site with allinurl: that are not from the site itself, but are dynamic search results from some oddball local search back east. Not only that, but the bad part is that with the invasiveness of dynamic crawling and indexing there are some dynamic MIVA shopping cart pages with long, long, long URLs - in a directory that is specifically forbidden to all bots in robots.txt so it should not happen in the first place.
| 10:51 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I am also interested in the future of Google. Clustering, semantic searching, drill downs... all good idea's.
Unfortunately the problem of the moment is that Google serps are having a problem... TODAY....
Also, from what I've heard, at least from GG, Google doesn't seem to believe that there is a problem with the current serps.... I see that as a MAJOR issue as only Google can fix this problem.
Where do we go from here? What can be done? What can I do?..We do?
| 11:33 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)|
From a french quebecer I will baptize this flux :
"Livre, mais livre égale"
Here my traduction : We have a maxime here in Quebec who tell :
"Pousse, mais pousse égale" who mean "push, but push-it equally".
In french "Livre" mean "book", but it is also a verb mening "to deliver".
Here is my french minute of WebmasterWorld ;-)
| 1:11 am on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
RE: If its not broke don't fix it!
Here here! That is the mistake of many large companies and businesses. Google is already number 1 and yet some head honcho at Google probably woke up one morning, or came back from a conference, with his/her head full ideas and decided to make his/her mark on Google.
Those that do not learn from history and over-run by it.
| 1:20 am on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
"Livre, mais livre égale"
Moi, je dirais plutôt: Délivrez-nous!
| 2:06 am on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Even Google get ript off! Google also lost position on this update.
A week ago Google was #4 for "Google Box" even if in the page of Google Appliance's page, the word "box" was never there.
Now you can't find the Google Appliance page in the first 100 results for "google box".
Huge drop off and major change in algo ;-)
Hum... That's give me a idea. Should we write Adwords books for sell in Amazon, and few hundreds comparaison price pages for Adwords with Overture, Findwhat, Espotting to be listed in Epinion, Dealtime, etc ;-)))
| 3:02 am on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I don't think Google is losing as much sleep over this as some others who rely on the income. Wait!... Before someone says that you can't rely on Google, or that Google owes us nothing.... I understand all that. However, in the real world this thing is really put the hurt on people.
| 4:20 am on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I agree c1bernaught:
If my data of august continue like that, for the first time since 99, Google will lost another 2 points for the second consecutive month. More than 4 points lost since may. And for the first time since 2002 I see Altavista above 3% of the referers.
| 7:13 am on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I would also like to point out that for the keywords
It gets worse.
On the second page not only do we have PDF but we also get a DOC, windows 2000 word document.
Out of 2 pages (20 listings) their may be only 5 or 6 relative results. All listings are either in German, French, US patent laws, american society of eighteenth century studies, International Congress of the Musicological Society of Japan) and other really annoying pages, the second page has 2 PDF files and a DOC file being 'SLSA Annual Conference 2003' sorry what was the keywords I typed in again?
Come on guys, for the first time Google Guy really made me cross when he mentions that their stats are ok.
The problem is we will have to put up with this for sometime.
Cough Cough but I think Google, you are playing into Yahoo's hands, now they have an excuse to to turn you off and why not I am now more inclined to search else where.
| 8:06 am on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
hmmmm....back to the top great thread!
| 8:19 am on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I completely agree with every post I've read on this topic, which obviously isn't all of them.
Strangely enough I was about to write something similar myself
| 8:32 am on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I know everyone knows about the Google/Amazon deal in this press release [google.com...] ,
But my point is Amazon has made a deal where they get access to 'Billions of web pages through Google's search results'...is it possible that such 'sponsored listings' or 'adwords' could boost someone into many top rankings 'inadvertently'?
| 11:00 am on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I don't beleive that the AdWords and "sponsored listings" directly affect the serps (been stated by GG very strongly that this is not the case) however it is logical to assume that Google engineers or salespeople have advised Amazon on how to make their pages search friendly and/or have adjusted Google's algorithms to allow for the inclusion of these pages. It may have been part of the deal.
As an ex-sales person there were many times when we would advise a customer how to adjust his business to take advantage of the benefits we offered - can anyone doubt that with a big deal in the making that the same would not happen at Google. They would then be able to remain with clean hands by saying that there was no direct intervention just a tweak of the knob that they do constantly.
| 12:48 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
For the word "free" (twice in the page and probably in descrition of a lot of links) and "product" (in url here) it is really normal with 4,494,976 external web pages that link to "www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html" that Adobe get thoses results!
| 1:42 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
It never ceases to amaze me how people can claim that a massive site with hundreds and thousands of pages well interlinked with dynamic navigation to sub pages (think: "Other people bought..."), and branding so well done that hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily link to the site should somehow appear lower in the SERPs than their dinky 10 page brochure of a site that you have to beg people to link to. It's simple SEO, not some conspiracy.
Sure Amazon paid for their good ranking... by hiring a lot of talented people and putting a lot of good money and hard work into building a good site with a solid marketing campaign online and offline. Don't whine because you spend a fraction of what they do in marketing efforts and don't beat them in the rankings everytime, that's just silly.
Either get some capital and compete head on or develop a good niche where you can gain market share and rankings.
| 1:52 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
But the point is why did Amazon suddenly leap up in the SERPS 2 or 3 weeks ago. They didn't have this dominant position for the 2 years before that. They don't dominate AllTheWeb - and it's search results are currently looking better than Google.
Either Google was broken until 2 weeks ago and it's now fixed so that Amazon dominate - or it was broken 2 weeks ago.
| 3:30 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
GG just checking back in with you to see if you have an answer one way or the other on the pdf/docs.
| 3:55 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I'm with Iguana on this one. Why the sudden burst onto the scene? Is it the spidering of dynamic pages? The new deal with Google? New SEO on Amazon's part?
Also "get some capital and compete head to head"? I hope you're joking there. I'm sure less than 1% of people doing business on the web have that kind of capital.
Your above reference to capital of course begs an interesting question... Will big money end up completely dominating business on the web?
| 4:20 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Well I think we have said everything that can be said.
What we do say I don't think is really going to influence google. I do hope the attitude of Google is not of why shall we worry about upsetting a couple hundred of webmasters on WW when we already have a gross value of over some many hundreds of millions.
I am looking at my way of thinking of finding better deals and offers and how to you paid advertising to market all my web sites.
Its now time not too rely on Google any more, it was nice but things are too erratic and in business you don't need more turbulance.
Just my last posting on this thread had enough!
| 4:54 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
>>It's simple SEO, not some conspiracy<<
The issue TheRealTerry is quality. A returns page packed with Amazon/Dealtime/Etc isn't what most searchers are actually looking for. One simple changed has deteriorated the SERPS massively.
[edited by: ciml at 6:05 pm (utc) on Aug. 13, 2003]
[edit reason] Let's all stick to the topic please. Thanks! [/edit]
| 5:12 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Has anyone considered that Amazon, Dealtime, etc... are set up for XML feeds (they already feed amongst eachother)? Perhaps they are feeding tons of information into Inktomi, Froogle, etc... and these mass inclusions are making their way into Google. I just think there are a 101 more rational avenues of explanations to follow than to immediately jump to some odd Google conspiracy theory.
As to the need for having the budget of Amazon to compete... you're darn right you need it. It takes money to build a site and more money to market it properly with SEO, etc... Time is not free. You don't attack a large company like that head on and not expect to get blown out of the water. Like I said, find a niche or find some capital. It's called a Free Market, not a Fair Market. Fair is a relative term, what's fair to you is not considered fair by Amazon who has spent the time, effort and money to build their business up and become successful. Why should people assume to be on a level playing field when they haven't invested the same time or money? I'm sorry, but the day success stops being earned (and earning the capital to help buy success is the same thing) is the day our fine Republic turns into rubble.
| 5:30 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I don't believe that there is a conspiracy.
Do you believe that the search experience of the vast public majority benefits by domination of a few big companies?
What I'm saying is that Google in particular has built a reputation as "The peoples search engine". Following your logic it seems that Google should be a "big business serach engine", in which case Google will no longer enjoy the popularity or the success it has had in the past.
This isn't just about online economics. It is also about the future of Google, the future of online search and the futures of many of thousands of webmasters.
I see a problem with big companies dumping their millions of data fed, poorly organized and mirrored pages on Google. I think it's bad for the end user, bad for webmasters and utimately bad for Google.
| 5:53 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
TheRealTerry "It never ceases to amaze me how people can claim that a massive site with hundreds and thousands of pages well interlinked with dynamic navigation to sub pages (think: "Other people bought..."), and branding so well done that hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily link to the site should somehow appear lower in the SERPs than their dinky 10 page brochure of a site that you have to beg people to link to. It's simple SEO, not some conspiracy."
Of course Amazon and others mentioned in the subject would excel on this point, but that is only part of the equation. Where is the quality? Take a look at some of the examples given. Although Amazon has millions of links to its site, and it deserves to come up in searches(like searching for a particular book), it has no place in the top 10 of a search just because it happens to have the phrase mentioned somewhere on the page. These results really in no way pertain to the search you are performing. That is the problem with many of these Amazon results, pdfs, docs, etc.
Now many of us have noticed, and we've tried to offer examples and our opinions. Bottomline: It doesn't matter one way or the other. Google can either check it out, and if they see something,make some changes or not. Either way the consumer will make the final judgement. I'm just following up b/c GG said he would give an answer one way or the other on at least the pdf/docs.
PS. I'm not sure what this says, but I've been a member of this forum for about 2 years, and I read it weekly (learned a lot btw). This is by far the most I've ever posted on one particular subject.
| 6:07 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Google is a business, their search engine is the core of their business.
To stay in busines, Google must provide value to the searchers.
Since the beginning, they have had to re-think and re-engineer their formulas to make sure results are useful for the average searcher.
Things have changed, both within Google and outside.
Google must adapt!
Adaptation means, modification of their ranking formulas so that results continue to be relevant and appreciated by users
When people search using Google, they do not want to find eBay, Amazon, Dealtime, Epinions, or any other of the big guys.
People already know about them!
When the regular user goes to Google, he/she wants to find relevant content in rather smaller sites, specialized in the items they are looking for. If you want to shop large sites , go to a portal, there are plenty of those!
Google has been the best so far because it offered the user relevant results and the webmasters with a responsive reward to their Good site design practices (namely, content, structure, ease of navigation, usability, etc,)
If Google stops offering that, it will stop being the favorite SE for both users and webmasters.
Maybe I am wrong and people will simply start looking at results on page 2 or 3... 15.... only time will tell.
However, time in the internet runs very, very fast.
Please Google, hurry up and fix this mess!
Conspiracy theories... naah
| 6:17 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Just one other note regarding the dominance of large companies and their marketing budgets.
Large companies with huge sites and big budgets absolutely deserve to be in the top spots if they have the content and links to back it up. A perfect example is the search example I gave; data storage. There are some giant data storage companies that deserve to be in the top 10 and beyond. There is absolutely no reason why Amazon should now occupy the two top spots (a change for the worse since yesterday). Not to mention the pdfs and docs that follow.
| 6:19 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Regarding the PDF files I have to admit that I am seeing more and more of them in top 10. One simple example is "Google Adwords". The pdf file was not there previously. Similarly seeing pdf files in the top 10 for some other searches as well.
As far as the examples in these thread are concerned I do have a concern when results from different TLDs are given placements in the top 10 results. Doesn't make sense to have a single site's .co.uk , .co.in , .co.nz domains and various other subdomains dominate the SERPS. It's a QC issue which Google has to address sometime.
| 6:43 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
It is almost like the pdf/docs and other stuff was filtered form the seps or not given much weight before this all started. Most of the PDFs and such I see are from sites that have good PR above 6. They are also big sites with lots of pages, I see a lot of government sites and US state sites and .org sites. Like I said on the first page of this thread this is the only time I can remember when average web users have took notice to google changes. Since I'm the Computer Guy at my work, people come to me with questions, and a few of my co workers just want to know WHY and are they here to stay?
| 9:15 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Interesting... checking on -sj, -cw, etc.. all have the same large companies in the top 10, for the example searches contained in this thread. However they are jockeying around like mad.
I'm waiting to see if they float out of the top, as most of them should....
| 9:31 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
It sounds to me like the fussing is coming from bitter webmaster, I don't see anybody complaining they are having trouble from an end user standpoint.
If I run a search on Linksys routers, I get the linksys site first, and then just a bit below is this dreaded Amazon site. How horrible that a search for a product actually reveals a listing of where I can buy that product.
I guess I understand the complaint to be that Amazon listings are popping up under totally unrelated SERPs? I personally have never run across that, but too hear some people speak it's a rampant epidemic that's destroying Google's integrity. None of the "civies" I talk to seem to have this occuring to them, so I'm not seeing the justification for all this drama I suppose.
Maybe an example would help. One might have been given, but its kind of hard to find amongst the 18 pages of this thread!
| 9:39 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I don't think there's a Google conspiracy but I agree with others on this thread that having three pages of Amazon and epionins results is not what searchers want or expect from Google. Most people who are web-saavy enough to go to Google in the first place are certainly saavy enough to check out Amazon if they were so inclined. They go to Google because they are looking for a variety of other sources of information or product resources. For the search terms I follow, Amazon is completely dominating the first three pages with nary a competitor in site. About a third of the Amazon results are not even in English. The results are just franky crappy (whether I am bitter about not being ranked highly or not).