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More eBay, Amazon, Dealtime, Epinions, etc. in Results
Side Effects of Improved Dynamic Spidering?
Slud




msg:73168
 3:21 pm on Aug 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

For a lot of the words I track, I've noticed a marked increase in the number of meta shopping sites: eBay, Amazon, Dealtime, Epinions, CNET Shopper, Buy.com and even Google Answers in the results.

Is this a side-effect of improved dynamic spidering, or have the web developers for the sites wised-up (en masse)?

Random forum posts and PDF's sometimes show up in the top 10 for words that are pricey at overture ($5+).

My hope is that this is just a temporary situation before the full update occurs.

 

turk182




msg:73258
 8:18 pm on Aug 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

More searches where Amazon appears first:
asp 3.0 [google.com]
asp databases [google.com]
learning perl [google.com]
programming php [google.com]
learn to surf [google.com]
learn hiragana [google.com]
oracle design [google.com]
basic underwear [google.com]
.
.
.
.

I think that if you come to search for some words matching a book title or an amazon category and there are no pages with a high page rank with those keywords, you are obligued to find amazon at the beginning of search results.

[edited by: turk182 at 8:24 pm (utc) on Aug. 7, 2003]

turk182




msg:73259
 8:23 pm on Aug 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

steveb
And then the Amazon mirror question exists: considering the one example posted, it would seem possible that the top ten search results would consist of two results each from all the Amazons, each showing the same two books.

Not exactly, but if you searh for basic underwear, then click in repeat the search with the omitted results included you find that the first 96 results are from Amazon [google.com].

Yidaki




msg:73260
 8:25 pm on Aug 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

turk182,

might be a good idea to set up adwords for these, no!? BTW: for some titles i'm #1 and amazon is at page #2. I don't tell you which ones though. :)

btw: let's not mix up amazon with these other crappy dynamically created pages based on queries and running under yaddayadda123.org domains, ok!? If this still works next month, i'll gonna try it myself. ;)

lk125




msg:73261
 8:29 pm on Aug 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hey GG, I just sent you a spam report with 5 listings in top 10 search of a search phrase, and these 5 listings have never appeared before until a week ago.

2 are pdfs and one is file not found, and the other pdf has no relevant content
1 has only the search phrase itself on the page and no content.
1 I'm not sure what it is, and it will not let you click back to Google
1 has very little relevant content to the search phrase.

I can send you other examples of search phrases if you would like.

lk125




msg:73262
 8:49 pm on Aug 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hey GG, I went ahead and sent you one more prevelant search phrase that has 3 pdfs and one doc in just the top 10, and there are several more in the rest of the results. Once again these were not there a week or so ago, and they don't seem to be very relevant to the subject even knocking a very large company out of the top spot that they have had forever.

I also have some more examples. Just let me know if you would like me to send them.

mikeD




msg:73263
 8:51 pm on Aug 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Yeah the main problem seems to be Amazon, I think it's safe to say nobody wants google to become a redirect for Amazon. There is a danger of this if Google doesn't watch out because nobody can compete with Amazon.

turk182




msg:73264
 9:36 pm on Aug 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Yidaki

btw: let's not mix up amazon with these other crappy dynamically created pages based on queries and running under yaddayadda123.org domains, ok!?

At present I'm competting with one of these crappy domains. The problem is that is not a small one, but a pan-european one. For exact matching queries I'm always the first, but it you mix the query terms (you only write the first and the third, or the second and first...) they always appear first because of their dinamically-full-of-keywords pages.

If this still works next month, i'll gonna try it myself. ;)

I'm also considering doing it myself ;-) What angers me most is that they have only price listings, while in my own site I have reviews, opinions, product specificactions (in most cases with more detail than the manufacturer's one), forums... and only, if you want to buy, there are pages with price listings (these pages are well hidden within my site. I don't want crappy clics)

Net_Wizard




msg:73265
 9:57 pm on Aug 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

The title of this thread is 'More eBay, Amazon, Dealtime, Epinions, etc. in Results'

1. Several posts in this thread agreed that it is so.

2. Several posts in this thread also mentioned pdf/doc in the top listings.

3. Several examples are given about the multiple listings of Amazon.

Googleguy did cover/research the issue of pdf/doc listing with their crawl engineer BUT have carefully avoided the issue of the multiple listings of Amazon. Not once did he mentioned anything about it even with the given example.

On the issue of spam reporting, some considered that as the only way to help Google.

I for one does not agree on its effectiveness, 5+ months later of my last spam report, a company with multiple cloaked domains is still in the top 30 of multiple queries and sometimes even better. Just throw-away domains with cloaked content and something else for public views(Don't ask me who this is this time).

Instead of filling a spam report, if I choose to discuss the issue HERE regardless of my reasons would you consider that as Arm Waving or being Ungrateful to Googleguy? If there is a consensus, would you consider that group of people as Arm Waving or being Ungrateful to Googleguy?

If these group of people who agree that there's something wrong with Google serp AND refuses to cooperate with Googleguy request for spam report. Does it mean that these people are a bunch of whiners?

What is this forum for anyway? Are we just going to be k*** a$$ with GG? Clearly, Google is not beholden to my site nor I AM beholden to Google. Why should it become my responsibility to be Google's watchdog?

If GG says that 'statistically' there's nothing wrong with their serp. So be it...in fact, they could spam their own engine and nobody could stop them. Let's not forget 'statistics' does not tell the whole story, on the other hand public opinion...

is just that...public opinion. How Google receive public opinion it's entirely up to them no matter how wrong is public opinion...if there is such thing as wrong public opinion.

Google can either choose to act positively, negatively or nothing but it cannot continously solicit specific spam report, by the mere fact that there's a consensus that would be enough for them to reconsider, no need for specifics. The burden of proof whether the consensus is right or wrong lies with Google.

We may agree and disagree on this thread or any thread for that matter, after all this is a discussion board, is it not? If critisizing or discussing issues about Google would earn me the title of Arm Waving, Ungrateful, and Whiner(or A.W.U.W. for short) then so be it, I'm proud to belong to that group.

Cheers

Napoleon




msg:73266
 6:46 am on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

Another morning and back to this thread....which has moved on a little.

AMAZON, PDF, DEALTIME, ETC
Firstly, it looks like you have a few examples now GoogleGuy.... poking around should also help you find plenty. It isn't hard, as it's a very widespread problem.

If you have an index/algo that hasn't been touched for a week or two, try comparing. You will see a stark difference in many areas. It's horrible in so many areas. I guarantee you will escalate.

The guy you have been speaking to.... maybe the crawl hasn't changed... maybe the algo or a filter has. Obviously I don't know whether the Amazon/PDF/eBay/Etc stuff was always there: but it wasn't visible in the top returns. Now it is. In fact it is stangling the content.

If he denies any change at all, either he is the wrong guy to speak to or he is not telling you the truth.

INDEX PROBLEM
On the index problem, I do appreciate that this will be hard. I search on 9 centers, maybe the site is missing on 3. I re-do the search on each and it's back. Then it stays happily in place regardless of the number of times I re-search. However, the same happens again, maybe different centers, if I try a few hours later.

It smacks of instability... as if centers are losing sites or storage or something. The sites affected are a large sub-set of those that were hit by the original index problem. Some really important sites (not to me but industrywise) are affected so it is something that people will pick up on and may dent their confidence a bit.

SteveB: Sorry mate but I intened to continue to 'arm wave'. You obviously don't agree, but discussing here IS valuable - for starters we have arrived at pretty much a consensus very professionally. If only through this alone, Google now realize that something isn't right and hopefully will work on it. If that happens the 'arm waving' has been of value for everyone. Again you may disagree, but I'm not a total idiot: every problem I have ever posted is real.

Jakpot




msg:73267
 10:54 am on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

What is this forum for anyway? Are we just going to be k*** a$$ with GG? Clearly, Google is not beholden to my site nor I AM beholden to Google. Why should it become my responsibility to be Google's watchdog?
We may agree and disagree on this thread or any thread for that matter, after all this is a discussion board, is it not? If critisizing or discussing issues about Google would earn me the title of Arm Waving, Ungrateful, and Whiner(or A.W.U.W. for short) then so be it, I'm proud to belong to that group.

Agree 100%. No one should critize anyone else for their
comments in this discussion board. Critisizm reflects
intellectual immaturity.

lk125




msg:73268
 1:34 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

Ok I'm not sure what happened b/t the time I submitted my examples yesterday, but the search results on those 2 phrases have actually gotten worse.

lk125




msg:73269
 1:40 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

Just as a side-note, I've done a search on other niche type SEs that seem to give better results than the big boys like Teoma, Wisenut, ATW, etc, and all of the results are fairly consistent across the board. Google used to also be consistent with these results, but ever since all of this started a few months back they have gradually changed.

wingslevel




msg:73270
 3:31 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

I am still trying to figure this out, but it looks like the amazon serp's that have been noted in earlier posts are not navigated to via the normal category hierarchy. For example, the men's underware page appears to be actually an internal amazon search result. There is no breadcrumb on the top of the page, and no browse boxes on the left. I can't think of how googlebot ended up there.

On the other hand, Amazon is definitely getting more se friendly. It's been a while since I've been there, but they are now putting keywords in their page titles etc. Maybe they hired somebody from around here...

seoArt




msg:73271
 3:55 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

How about "website design"? I think there's a problem with Amazon showing up top 10-15 of that query.

Allergic




msg:73272
 4:00 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

Amazon was one the first (in early 99 if my memory is good) of the big dynamic e-commerce site to use Url rewriting technique to make is site bot-frendly. But, when I study their case in 2000, they where never in good position in results because of the huge url who can go up to 10 levels down.
Since then, I don't know when they change their backend technique, but they where never competitive (except for the affiliate program before Google tweak it) and the URL now are no more optimise.
But now, since 2-3 weeks, you see them regularly in top 30 for pages, usually, with really poor content or a bit of topic!

TerrCan123




msg:73273
 8:48 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hello,

From my experience with Google I have not seen more PDFs being listed however the problem is that many of these seem to have 20 or more pages and to find the searched data is almost impossible. They do allow it as HTML which helps a great deal but not all of them do this.

As far as the overall Google searches go, I am afraid that Google is giving many spam pages still even though they have applied new filters. The worst of the pages are the ones with the very long addresses. The SEO's do that because Google counts those words and so they add as many words as possible with hyphens to cover all areas. It would seem to be fairly easy to filter that but it hasn't been done yet.

Also it was pointed out the page where you go to and it says "sorry that isn't here anymore" surrounded by twenty banners and buttons. This is a bait and switch and should be penalyzed to stop it from happening.

Also the page that gets to the top with no data or words at all. Mostly these are websites that have many links pointing to them but they have been abandoned yet go to the top due to the algorithm. It would seem a simple filter on page size would take care of this so that at least something is there to get to the top.

Many of the search engine page spam sites seem to have been taken out which is good.

The affiliate sites aren't that bad yet as long as they have good pagerank. The bad ones are the 50000 page web services sites that have little pagerank overall but seem to get to the top throught the v-e-r-y-l-o-n-g-k-e-y-w-o-r-d-d-o-m-a-i-n-s-t-h-a-t-g-o-o-l-g-e-s-e-e-m-s-t-o-l-o-v-e.

Anyway thanks Google though for all your efforts on search. You are the best and these are minor problems I just wanted to point out.

[added] A new problem I see is the foreign language pages being displayed in English results. These pages are unreadable in english yet because they have an english word domain or an english keyword they show up in English results. Something I noticed I forgot to add earlier.

lk125




msg:73274
 9:22 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

GG were those 2 reports regarding pdfs, docs, etc helpful or would you like some more examples?

Jakpot




msg:73275
 11:00 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

Anxiously awaiting another message from Himself - Google Guy.

Net_Wizard




msg:73276
 2:20 am on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

He's currently busy appeasing the adsense members. I admit though that it was pretty darn quick for GG to solve the problem 'without asking everyone to send him emails'. All he did was talked to their 'adsense engineer' and voila, problem solved. Money talk, you know ;)

It started Aug 7th when somebody posted Who is opting out of Adsense due to related searches? [webmasterworld.com] then on the same date GG positively responded with this post Related Searches [webmasterworld.com]

And this multiple listing issue?

What problem? ;)

Are they losing revenues because of this Amazon thingy? Who knows for all we know Google is already a super affiliate of these companies(ebay, amazon, epinions) considering that this issue is seemingly ignored.

Spam report? You might as well send it to spam @ nowhere.com

That's just my take on this issue.

GoogleGuy




msg:73277
 2:24 am on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

Ah, regular work is done for the week, so I'm settling in to read the pdf/doc reports now. I've gotten enough to go digging around--thanks for contributing those. If I uncover anything, I'll let ya know later this weekend. If I don't uncover anything, I'll try to let you know that too. :)

Allergic




msg:73278
 3:31 am on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

GoogleGuy
Ah, regular work is done for the week, so I'm settling in to read the pdf/doc reports now. I've gotten enough to go digging around--thanks for contributing those. If I uncover anything, I'll let ya know later this weekend. If I don't uncover anything, I'll try to let you know that too. :)

But the thread was never initiate for pdf/doc!
It is a good blanket for you?
I appreciate you a lot, specially for the time you spending here (as the same way our feedbacks is a very good and highly valuable focus group) but you are getting more and more a really political (bush) language! Are you for the new Governator? ;-)
Seriously and for the first time (and after playing with your GBox) I really suspect some financial "pushing" in SERPs, for Amazon since 1 or 2 weeks? Hope i'm wrong!

ILLstyle




msg:73279
 4:17 am on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

Allergic

I Think Pdf/Doc was just how GG is referring to this thread in general.
It was to be used IN the report title to make it easy to recognize from other reports.
But I can't speak for GG

from 1st post
>>
eBay, Amazon, Dealtime, Epinions, CNET Shopper, Buy.com and even Google Answers
Random forum posts and PDF's
>>

This is all the same sort problem, and it all occurred around the same time right?

Napoleon




msg:73280
 6:56 am on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

>> and it all occurred around the same time right? <<

Yes.... on the same night, which indicates that it may indeed be caused by the same thing. I suspect that if the PDF/DOC problem is fixed, so will be the Amazon/eBay clutter.

>> Seriously and for the first time (and after playing with your GBox) I really suspect some financial "pushing" in SERPs, for Amazon since 1 or 2 weeks? <<

Which is exactly how much of the public and many commentators may see it if it isn't addressed. Google may have more to lose from this than they think.

lk125




msg:73281
 10:51 am on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

Thanks GG, and I'll be working this weekend as well so I'll be looking out for your answer.

danny




msg:73282
 11:07 am on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

I haven't noticed more PDFs and doc files in SERPs, but the ones that are there do detract - have always detracted - from Google's usability.

Inclusion of PDFs and doc files in search result should be an advanced search option, NOT enabled by default.

On the Amazon front, one expects Amazon's book pages to rank highly for title searches (though my reviews do better except for very popular books)... but some of Amazon's cross-linking must be close to running askance of Google's cross-linking filters -- links to "related books" is one think, but totally random links to clothing items from book pages?

GoogleGuy




msg:73283
 3:13 pm on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hey Allergic, for filetypes (such as pdf/doc), sometimes the stats are easier to check. I've got 2-3 good queries now that I can play with regarding pdf/doc. Not trying to dodge you, I promise--just trying to keep my focus narrowed to the easiest thing that I can check right now. I will mention this thread about vendor pages to folks inside the plex as well, but in the mean time it will help the argument if I come up with more data on pdfs/docs. Hope that makes sense..

Allergic




msg:73284
 5:25 pm on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

GoogleGuy some strange bugs affecting the doc/pdf/txt filetype: queries!
When I post the last topic in may [webmasterworld.com] I used "filetype:xyz inurl:xyz" to find out all the possible matching results for the differents filetypes.
But now you get different data with :

pdf : 10,100,000 using "+the filetype:pdf" and with "inurl:pdf filetype:pdf" 9,370,000
txt : 1,710,000 using "+the filetype:txt" and with ""inurl:txt filetype:txt" 2,560,000
doc : 2,950,000 using "+the filetype:doc" and with "inurl:doc filetype:doc" 552,000
(e)ps : 844,000 using "+the filetype:ps" and "+the filetype:eps" and with "inurl:eps filetype:eps" and "inurl:ps filetype:ps" 1,228,000
xls : 294,000 using "+the filetype:xls" and with "inurl:xls filetype:xls" 655,000
ppt: 502,000 using "+the filetype:ppt" and with "inurl:ppt filetype:ppt" 638,000
rtf : 265,000 using "+the filetype:rtf" and with "inurl:rtf filetype:rtf" 370,000

Specially for the doc query the digit are way out?

Napoleon




msg:73285
 6:30 pm on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

>> I haven't noticed more PDFs and doc files in SERPs, but the ones that are there do detract <<

It's impossible to say if there are actually more in total... but it is 100% certain that they are now choking some areas in terms of ranking.

They may have been in the index all along, but just not ranking highly enough to cause a problem. Now though, they are destroying the returns in some areas because they hog virtually all the top 10. Terrible from the average users perspective.

The relationship with amazon/ebay/dealtime/etc is that they too have all emerged in the last week. They too are choking certain areas. I'm less inclined to believe though that they were in the index at all until last week.

On the comment I made above on public perception, a second person today mentioned the possibility of Amazon having paid Google for this 'adjustment'. That makes me feel that this perception is one that could quickly catch on if Google isn't careful. It could be rather damaging IMHO.

super_seo




msg:73286
 6:50 pm on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

GG,
I may have one for you to look at, and i am of course very interested if anyone else has had the same problem. My site is widgets.com i have thousands of links, but i have one very good link from one particularly good site. I tryed to find out how much traffic i was getting from this link so for 1 day i added a "?source=linkedsite" at the end of the url linking to my home page.As luck would have it spiders happened to come by on the one day i had the referrer code in the link. As of when these links started showing on -cw my domain name switched on all servers to www.widgets.com?source=linkedsite. This has happened to a few sites that i have that link to the same linkedsite. Anyway, the homepage of my site is now a PR of 0(when poiting to -cw), however my internal pages are fine. I'm still doing fine in the SERPS except of course my homepage who can no longer be found for its companies name, which it has held the top spot in for as long as i can remember. Basically as far as i can see my homepage has been ripped out of the index and replaced by its domain with a referrer code attatched.
My only idea is google has some how recognized this as to seperate URLS and and has given it some kind of duplicate content penalty or something. As the homepage now registers 0 links or at least gets a response of "did not match any documents" Seems unbelieveable but believe it. GG, sticky me please if you'd like to look. Its an industry leader site in a very competitive industry, so i dont really want to throw it around in this forum.

Any one else see this problem? or am i the only bad luck smuck.

PS
Well aware of referral codes coming up in the index, but replacing a homepage?

Net_Wizard




msg:73287
 10:04 pm on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

On the Amazon front, one expects Amazon's book pages to rank highly for title searches...

----------------------
1. For 'exact Title search', I don't have a problem with Amazon ranking high at all. But even so, 5 out of 10 listings IMO is just plain overkill(overspam?).

But that's not what's happening here...even if the query, partially match a title, the serp is dominated with Amazon listings.

As demonstrated by the example 'web database applications' or even at different word order or even just the combination of any of the two words results to at least 2 minimum listing for Amazon and most often at #1 and #2.

But truly it's rediculous to blame the Book Title as an excuse for the ranking when most if not all Book Title are generic words.

If I'm looking for 'php and mysql', what are the chances that I'm looking for a book?
----------------------

----------------------
2. I highly doubt that Google would consider this as relevant to a search query. How many people really search for a book title?

IMO books, magazines, price comparison, etc... are just byproducts of the internet, the primary reason why people uses the internet is still about 'information'. Like in your case where you do a 'book review', you may be linking to Amazon books as an affiliate but the reason why people are going to your site is because of the 'information you provide'.

So, for Google to believe that people are searching primarily for books is really an insult to searchers intelligence. Even newcomers to the internet would likely use the word 'book' in their query if they are actively searching for books. Like, if I'm searching for php and mysql books then my natural query would be 'php and mysql books', everybody does it like that unless the book title is so unique like 'the life of qzzzxty' :D
----------------------

I will mention this thread about vendor pages to folks inside the plex as well, but in the mean time it will help the argument if I come up with more data on pdfs/docs. Hope that makes sense..
bold mine

Did I just read a marketing talk or it's just a product of my imagination? Vendor...vendor...a very rarely use term...hmmmm...normaly, I would just hear this term used when somebody at my business is referring to a company that has a financial relationship with my company, hopefully this is not the case of Google.

AAnnAArchy




msg:73288
 10:10 pm on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

Want to check out a search decimated by Amazon, Epinions and various other shopping and/or foreign sites - espresso machine. There's one site that definitely deserves to be there and one site on page 2 that with its content should be number one. None of the sites are mine, I just love espresso. :)

I guess I can look on the bright side, there aren't any pdf files.

<ETA - the results came up differently on my partner's computer when I went into the other room. Slightly better, I might add>

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