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I tattled on my competitor, but is it hurting me now?
bokesch




msg:100602
 9:36 pm on Jul 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

Here's the deal-
My competitor had a small 6 page site, had hidden text everywhere stuffed with keywords, and had a single PR7 backlink. (His only backlink, besides his own pages) He was appearing on the first page for an extremely comepetive key phrase, so I went an acquired a link from the same site he had his single PR7 backlink from.

Prior to emerald or whatever the last update was called, I reported his hidden text site to google and it was penalized immediately. (You can't find his site anywhere now.)

I was hoping that with this new PR7 link I would get to enjoy the benefits my competitor had, but so far this hasn't happened, nor has my pr adjusted yet...and this was done over a month ago.

My question is, since the PR7 site links to my penalized competitor, would that be a red flag to google, causing a devalued interpretation of my backlink from the PR7 site?

 

too much information




msg:100692
 7:04 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

manilla -

As far as the text 'close' to the background color, you should probably be careful about that. I have a flat screen on my Mac where I do my sites, a 17" monitor on a PC that I test for compatability, and a 15" monitor on another PC that I test for older browsers. I have found that text displayed on any of them is different from the others.

In fact, my site looked great on two of them, but on the 15" all of my text was nearly invisible, even with adjusting the brightness/contrast. If you are going to report 'nearly invisible' text, make sure it's universally 'nearly invisible' and not just that way on your screen.

my 0.02

tmi

mat_bastian




msg:100693
 7:07 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

if in doubt, rat 'em out!

peewhy




msg:100694
 7:09 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Quite right, all monitors show different colour ranges, I have a tired old 17" on one particular PC and it is brilliant for showing hidden text ... without even trying!

europeforvisitors




msg:100695
 7:16 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Spam reporting is unsportsman like conduct.

1) Web publishing isn't a game.

2) If Web publishing were a game, spamming--not the reporting of it--would be the "unsportsmanlike conduct."

peewhy




msg:100696
 7:20 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

It probably is a game in the whole scheme of things.

We are all racing for winning slots.

Like many sports there are cheaters, fakers, foulers and sportsmen.

Yep, it probably is a game :)

bolitto




msg:100697
 7:23 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

You spam-reporting supporters don't have much logic, any of you actually graduated in computer science?

1) If you report spam you're cheating on other webmasters.

2) If you don't then you're cheating on Google.

Why do you feel so darned good helping Google? You're being dirty on the other side.....cheating competitors YOU DIDN'T BEAT CUZ YOU LOST ....

I don't cheat on other webmasters, I'm professional enough to admit *I'm in it for the money* and I'll beat them at their own game - this helping of big brother is communist stuff. I make money, I beat Google when I can and I'll behave when I can't beat them....

You people trying to make the world a better place reporting spam will see a "better world" when Google IPOs and you're left clueless staring at "pay-for-breathing".

Not to mention the bad karma, it does happen, believe it or not. Last time I reported one guy I couldn't beat any way I tried....he got dumped. My server crashed and I lost one of those old Google crawls from back when Google was REALLY good...yup, 1.5 months out of the index and there he was back with another winner, right on top of my site....

What can I say...I learned the lesson.

Lesson is : spam reporting is cheating on webmasters and helping big brother. I don't play that game anymore, it's me against them now and Google can go...uh, nevermind.

JuniorOptimizer




msg:100698
 7:25 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Question. What is the strategy to beat a competitor who is ahead of me? He has 7 identical sites and they dominate ALL of the top 23 spots on the 5 most important search terms for my field. He uses hidden text on every page, but more than that his power comes from his clever linking strategy. He hosts a number of sites. He has appended a footer to each of the pages of every domain he hosts. He used a well designed anchor text and links back to his 7 identical sites. His main site has a PR7 and the rest are PR 6. What is the best legitimate way to improve my ranking?

bolitto




msg:100699
 7:26 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

>Like many sports there are cheaters

Sports are verified by OPEN jury, DEMOCRACY....heard of it?

Google is one closed company judging what's good and what's not.....

Saying that Google's rules makes something "right" is admitting that you are totally submissive to google and you're not seeing the bigger picture of it...

Google does not produce anything, they rank other people's work, their news are taken from other sources, their content is taken from webmasters....

You should reconsider your values....

worker




msg:100700
 7:43 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

If you play fair, you don't have to worry about being reported, or being affected by being reported.

My guess is that the people that are passionate on how bad it is to report spam, are probably the worst offenders.

Why else would someone get so upset at the idea that cheating webmasters are reported.

If you are one of the bad guys, now is your time to clean up your act.

Remove the hidden text. Remove the hidden links. You will sleep better knowing that you aren't at risk of having your sites yanked out from under you due to your bad behavior.

Of course, if you aren't being bad, my comments shouldn't bother you.

steveb




msg:100701
 7:43 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

"Karma happens."

Yup, and that's why we get all these crying "my site is PR0 and I didn't do anything" posts.

Wake up spammers. This is the "Google News" forum. You can do any crap you want on your sites, but in the google game you have to play by their rules. Now don't start crying that you don't want to play fair, or that you got caught cheating. Get some content.

There will always be a battle between content people and lazy cheats. That's the way it works. In the Google game, they want to rank sites based on a criteria that returns user-useful results. It doesn't matter at all if their criteria is good or bad, if you want to play in the game you either pay by the rules or cheat. Naturally cheaters think everybody is as lazy and content-less as they are, but fortunately that isn't the case.

steveb




msg:100702
 7:47 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

"Ive always wondered why this topic attracts so much emotion and passion when it is really just a personal business decision whether to report or not."

Spammers hate it when people talk about doing the right thing according to the rules of the game. Spammers are cheats. Whether they are as unscrupulous in the rest of their lives or not is not relevant to Google, but how they act is part of the Google game. Spammers constantly complain about people using the spam reporting page, even though Google Guy encourages it. Spammers cry that nobody reads those reports, but those of us who do our part to clean up the garbage see with our own eyes that specific spam is sent to the trash bin where it belongs.

If you are playing by the rules, don't let the spammers buffalo or intimidate you. That is their game.

MyWifeSays




msg:100703
 7:52 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

back to the original question.

bokesch, don't worry just yet, twilightxxx (forgot the number) hit the nail on the head - the PR being used by Google dates back months (perhaps not in all cases).

I have pages doing well which I dropped all links to months ago.

steveb




msg:100704
 7:55 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

"Why do you feel so darned good helping Google?"

Because they are on the side of quality, and not on the side of spammers who don't care about quality.

Can some of you spam guys actually be so clueless? You are cheating. Accept it. If you don't want to be involved with Google, do whatever you want. But if you put hidden text on your page because you are too lazy to make a site that anybody would want to go to, then you should be penalized. Go steal some candy from a baby if you can't be an adult and take responsibility for your actions.

bokesch




msg:100705
 7:58 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

If the #2 golfer in the world learned that Tiger Woods was using illegal clubs, and both golfers were playing in the same tournament, and there was a $1,000,000 difference between 1st and 2nd place, do you think the 2nd place golfer would have the tournament officials inspect Tiger's clubs?

shurlee




msg:100706
 8:04 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Steveb
What an incredible pompous hypocrit you are!

I went and took a look at the Poker site in your profile. You have got to be kidding me! I'm supposed to jump on your bandwagon and start believing YOU are cleaning up the net? I especially enjoyed the backlinks. Oh yeah, you're a REAL straight shooter. >extreme sarcasm<

You can keep your preaching to yourself as far as I'm concerned because in my opinion, you have lost all respect or credibility. How dare you try to make yourself out to better than me or anyone else on the net for that matter.

Probably without knowing it, you have validated every point Napolean was trying to make.

As for worker, I think I'll go check out your profile now.

shurlee




msg:100707
 8:09 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Well at least worker is smart to get on his high horse WITHOUT putting his "completely clean" >more extreme sarcasm< website in his profile.

too much information




msg:100708
 8:11 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Wow bokesch! That really kicked me off the fence. Great analogy! :)

digitalghost




msg:100709
 8:18 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>but in the google game you have to play by their rules. Now don't start crying that you don't want to play fair, or that you got caught cheating. Get some content.

ROFL Steve, what are you going to do about the "smart spammers". You know, those folks that break the "rules" but are a bit more refined.

What if I wanted to play in your keyword playground? And I pointed two or three domain farms at the 100 sites I create to bully you off the playground? Thousands of links, with pretty darn good anchor text, supporting my network of sites. The only difference is, I'm not going to use hidden text, or cloaking, and you aren't going to be able to identify a single domain farm. In fact, I'm not going to use any tactic that you or Google could identify as "spam". I'm just going to clean your clock using tactics that Google hates but is helpless to prevent.

Then what do you do? Take your ball and go home? Or do you fight back?

Now before you get the idea that I want to bully you around the playground or that I plan on using those tactics I want you to realize that people are already using those tactics and I deal with it on a daily basis. So does everyone else that builds and markets sites in a competitive market.

Your "spam reports" aren't doing a thing but helping Google catch inept promoters and the inept folks aren't going to be the ones crushing you in the market. It's not those silly hidden text people you need to worry about, it's those folks you can't even identify that are going to quietly shove you aside and take your market share.

steveb




msg:100710
 8:20 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Poor shurlee. My site is in my profile because I have nothing at all to be ashamed of. I do everything by the rules and I'm proud of it.

Where is your site? Well I'll answer for you. It's nowhere to be found because you are ASHAMED of yourself. And that is 100% of the issue here. Spammers are ashamed of their behavior and don't want Google looking at their disgrace.

There are no coincidences around here. Do your sleazy work in the dark and hope you get away with it, or be open and play by the rules. You choose, then live with yourself.

shurlee




msg:100711
 8:21 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

It's NOT a great analogy at all. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing. The pointless analogies is one reason there is never any resolution to this discussion.

Professional golfers have a set of rules that have been agreed on by a governing body.

In this game the only one winning the million dollar prize is Google and we are all sitting back and arguing about their right to make up the rules as we go along with them ALWAYS winning.

How would your little golf diddy apply if it were Tiger
Woods making up all the rules?

shurlee




msg:100712
 8:24 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

>It's nowhere to be found because you are ASHAMED of yourself<

Not much point arguing logic like that.

peace.

mat_bastian




msg:100713
 8:24 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

"How would your little golf diddy apply if it were Tiger
Woods making up all the rules?" - Shurlee

...and not telling you about the rules until he won a couple of million and kicked you off the tour for breaking his rules?

[edited by: mat_bastian at 8:25 pm (utc) on July 16, 2003]

steveb




msg:100714
 8:24 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

"Then what do you do?"

Is this a joke? You don't seem to have any idea how competitive the marketplace can be without breaking the rules.

Google has rules. Don't have hidden text. Don't cloak. How complicated is it to not do those? If some sites are clever enough to SEO within the rules and do well, then more power to them. That isn't the issue here. The issue is the cheats, and reporting the cheats, and protecting yourself from theives who try to steal from you.

Chndru




msg:100715
 8:26 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

kuddos steve..went to da site..nice one...clicked on lotsa banners :)

steveb




msg:100716
 8:27 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

"Not much point arguing logic like that."

Exactly. You are embarrassed and afraid and ashamed to show your work. I'm not. I follow the rules, no matter what comments you make to the contrary. And of course, you better believe a zillion cheats have tried to hurt me ten zillion times.

You can't hide from it, even though you try to hide. Cheat in the darkness if you want, but if someone sees you cheat, you better be ready to take the consequences you deserve.

peewhy




msg:100717
 8:29 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Protecting ourselves is a whole big issue.

I feel that cloaking to protect code is fair. Cloaking to spam is a different story.

Is cloaking spamming?

bolitto




msg:100718
 8:29 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

The Golf governing body is OPEN and ACCOUNTABLE.

Who's saying spam is good?

I'm just saying I'm not helping Google until they make their trials and sentencing of sites OPEN AND ACCOUNTABLE.

You guys are heading the wrong way in this debate.....

The question is WHY HELP A *CLOSED* *UNACCOUNTABLE FOR* JURY?

Stop this comparison with professional sports already!

In sports you can take the case to the courts! With Google it's their "1st amendment right to an opinion", you can't sue or ask questions....Google can effectively do ANYTHING they wish to their SERPS!

See? Who's saying spam is good? Noone. I'm saying spam reporting is unethical with webmasters because Google is not open with webmasters, it's not accountable for.

If Google became something like the PGA is for Golf then you'll see me report spam! So far Google is like the KGB and we're fools doing what they tell us to do.

digitalghost




msg:100719
 8:30 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

You're right Steve, I'm completely clueless. I'll refrain from all further logic and resign from commenting further on these deep subjects I have no grasp of. All this complicated discussion is making my head hurt. ;) I'm off to ponder fuzzy memes.

bokesch




msg:100720
 8:30 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Shurlee,

You missed the point. Google isn't making any money from someone cheating the system. Its the person cheating the system that gets their site seen first...instead of the clean guys.

If the clean guy wants to compete with a cheater, he has to cheat, and in doing so, he risks being reported as a spammer. Thus, the only way to compete with spammers is to eliminate them.

As for the analogy, gfy.

mat_bastian




msg:100721
 8:30 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Just out of curiosity would a very wordy page with a 46% keyword density be considered spam?

Napoleon




msg:100722
 8:31 pm on Jul 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

SteveB... I've supported your views very often... but you are SOOO wide of the mark this time. Weren't you bleating a couple of weeks ago that Google had hit your 'innocent' index page? I think so.

The 'rules' are a moving feast (as is your definition of 'spam'). Ethics are with you for life.

Take your choice. I choose ethics.

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