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This 48 message thread spans 2 pages: 48 ( [1] 2 > >     
Fresh Behavior
Lets figure this out and give Google some feedback
mipapage




msg:107177
 3:43 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

Okay,

We've had some major changes recently, both in the algo and in the bots.

I would like to make some observations on the behavior of the fresh side of fresh/deep bot, and find out what others have noticed.


I have seen two sets of freshdates (may have missed one) since the datacenters all started showing equal backlinks post-Esmerelda. Here is what I have noticed:

1 - It seems to me that the freshboost still exists.

2 - PR level of the page does not effect who is visited and who gets dates - two pages that have less pr than us (and <5), that we normally rank higher than, seem to be getting fresh dates and the boost, with no changes whatsoever in their content.

3 - We had an 'index page problem' that seemed to disappear last Wednesday/Thursday. However, when the freshdates appeared the problem seemed to return - we lost our index page and dropped a few positions.

4 - We are getting visited by a bot that behaves like Freshy, but aren't getting freshdates ourselves. We used to get them every time they came out.

5 - Some hidden text spammers (members of a bigger spam circle) are getting freshed.



 

swampy webber




msg:107178
 4:32 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

Several sites I work with had freshbot (64.xx) visits on the same day. On a couple of these, the bot went VERY deep. On the sites where the crawl wasn't deep, I see freshtags and new content in the index. On the sites that received the 'deeper' crawl, I have seen no results at all included yet in the index.

You asked for observations, and unfortunately, that is all I have observed so far...

crobb305




msg:107179
 4:34 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

When I get fresh date, my rankings on main keyphrases drop two or three pages. When the fresh date is removed, my rankings go back to #1 position. Very Strange.

Dolemite




msg:107180
 4:40 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

I agree about freshboost.

Also, I've noticed that pages can still drop out of the index...so crawling isn't 100% fresh/deep unified even though the bots are (or at least the IP range is).

nutsandbolts




msg:107181
 4:49 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

3 - We had an 'index page problem' that seemed to disappear last Wednesday/Thursday. However, when the freshdates appeared the problem seemed to return - we lost our index page and dropped a few positions.

Totally on the nail with this one and such a mystery why the Fresh behaviour would cause the fix to revert back again...

Kirby




msg:107182
 4:50 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

My observations mirror that of crobb305. I have noticed that Fresh is less frequent and slower in updating changes than AV and Ink.

allanp73




msg:107183
 5:17 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

I noticed that the last Freshbot is from June 29th. It isn't giving much of a boost. Or possibly the boost given is not the same for each site. For example I have one site which is solidly in top 10. During the month it's ranking changes from anywhere from #2 to #6. However, it's weakest rankng occurs when there is a freshbot date. Other sites do better when their sites get the freshbot date. I believe that freshbot might remove the effect of pr instead of giving a pr boost. Therefore normally low pr sites (above 5) can rank above sites with better pr during a fresh period based on other page factors like text, h1, etc. because the ranking effect of pr is removed.
This is just a theory based on what I noticed during the fresh updates.

Dayo_UK




msg:107184
 5:24 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

I launched my personal site in February and fresh bot first started visiting after the April update - as the site was new I was basically surviving on fresh updates alone during Dominic.

Fresh bot tended to visit me every other day and pick up 100 odd pages out of the site which consists of about 150 crawlable pages.

Since Esmerelda this pattern has continued.

Late in Dominic and early in Esmerelda I noticed that the fresh pages seem to have much more flux - page could be freshed in at number 1 and the freshed in at number 70+.

The last few days has seen more stability. (Stable at 70+ but hey - site is new).

Have probably seen an increased activity of fresh bot visits this Sunday and Monday - not any deeper though so not sure if this is deep crawling.

Although in mipapage post it was suggested that fresh dates have only appeared twice since Esemerelda, I think that fresh content without dates has been appearing regular every other day (Dont know what makes G decide to go with a date or not)

So quick summary of points in mipapage post:-

1. Yes - probably more activity.

2. Agreed, although I felt that this was always the nature of freshbot - never been convinced PR was the main thing that attracts freshie.

3. Not experieced this.

4. Visited also and updates appearing regular without freshdates.

5. Yes, Freshbot will visit pages which we may consider spam.

Dolemite




msg:107185
 5:35 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

I noticed that the last Freshbot is from June 29th. It isn't giving much of a boost. Or possibly the boost given is not the same for each site. For example I have one site which is solidly in top 10. During the month it's ranking changes from anywhere from #2 to #6. However, it's weakest rankng occurs when there is a freshbot date. Other sites do better when their sites get the freshbot date.

I think the freshboost phenomenon is more to do with new sites/pages as opposed to sites/pages pre-existing in the index.

allanp73




msg:107186
 5:48 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

"I think the freshboost phenomenon is more to do with new sites/pages as opposed to sites/pages pre-existing in the index."

This is definitely not true. I have pages which were unchanged for months and in Google's index for years which receive fresh dates. It has more to do with pr and possibly new links. I can give you dozens of examples of this.

Dolemite




msg:107187
 5:55 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

This is definitely not true. I have pages which were unchanged for months and in Google's index for years which receive fresh dates. It has more to do with pr and possibly new links. I can give you dozens of examples of this.

Freshboost? Are you sure? Of course old pages can get freshbotted, and that's all they need to have a fresh tag.

Dayo_UK




msg:107188
 6:03 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>>>>It has more to do with pr and possibly new links. I can give you dozens of examples of this.

Like the algo there are probably lots of different factors in the calculation of pages that fresh may visit.

I think it probably has more to do with how the pages are found and from where (EG who has linked to you) - and how much power is left in freshbot (after all how else are new sites found)

What I would like to know is from people who are not experiencing fresh date at all - when have you been visited by freshbot, if at all?, are there sites out there that have not seen googlebot at all since Esmerelda (excluding banned sites)?

allanp73




msg:107189
 6:05 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

Freshboost , Freshdate , and Freshbot. Let's define the terms:

Freshbot: 64.xxx... visits your site picks up new content in theory.

Freshdate: In the serps date next to serp listing representing the date the freshbot came to that page/site

Freshboost: A perceive ranking boost caused by the freshbot.

Well, not every site that receives a freshdate is really fresh. Also, the effect of the freshboost isn't always positive. See my earlier post.

jrokesmith




msg:107190
 6:08 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

My site has been in Google since the end of 2001. During the dominic update, the index page dropped from page one to page 9 for the keyword "blue widgets". It was in the results on page 1 for the term "widgets," consistently, but has since dissappeared (or dropped down really far). For the past couple of weeks, it alternatiately switched from page 1 to page 10 for "blue widgets" periodically in various data centers, depending on the fresh tag date that the data center I was checking carried. Some data centers will have a fresh tag, while others will not at any given time. When the site has a new fresh tag date in a data center, it was down on page 9 on that data center, when it had no freah tag date, it was on page 1. In the past couple of days, however, it seems to be on page 9 regardless of a tag date in the data center. I are getting freshbot visits every day or every two days. Obviously I'd like to figure out what I'm doing wrong. I have added new pages so freshbot is probably very happy to visit the site.

mipapage




msg:107191
 6:25 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

5. Yes, Freshbot will visit pages which we may consider spam.

I should have qualified the original point. It seems that spammy pages that 'go missing' (spam filter maybe?) seem to magically reappear with a freshdate.

I've seen this phenomenon since pre-dominic.

What I would like to know is from people who are not experiencing fresh date at all - when have you been visited by freshbot, if at all?, are there sites out there that have not seen googlebot at all since Esmerelda (excluding banned sites)?

I have been visited four times since last Saturday (28th June). After some more review, it seems that some of our internal pages received a freshdate, but our index page - yes, the one that goes missing - didn't, even though FDbot has grabbed the page on all four occasions.


For people who are getting flushed down the serps when they receive freshdates, are you checking the pages that rise above you? I mean, do they have freshdates too?

allanp73




msg:107192
 6:32 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

"For people who are getting flushed down the serps when they receive freshdates, are you checking the pages that rise above you? I mean, do they have freshdates too? "

This is what I was suggesting that the drop people notice is due to other sites ranking better based on the freshbot. One reason, as I said before, is the freshbot might remove the effects of pr.

Ltribe




msg:107193
 6:33 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

In my category, a couple of the sites above me receive freshdates, but don't disappear. They're older sites, with little if any change from month to month.

When my index page disappears, I do a search for another phrase on the page, and my index page comes up in the serps with a freshdate.

Today, a subsidiary page is demonstrating that freshdate just drops it's rank by a page or two.

jrokesmith




msg:107194
 6:36 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

Mipapage,

One thing I forgot to add - this is curious. I checked the same data center. For key word Blue widgets, there is a fresh tag of June 29th (on page 9 of results). However for key word widgets, there is no fresh tag date and page 1. This is on the same data center. Can someone who has greater technical knowledge explain this?

To answer your other question, the sites above my site in the rankings - some have fresh tag dates, others do not.

Kirby




msg:107195
 6:37 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

For people who are getting flushed down the serps when they receive freshdates, are you checking the pages that rise above you? I mean, do they have freshdates too?

Excellent question. Half of the sites above me have dates (6/29). The other half do not. A few of those that dont have just recently reappeared. After freshbot, but prior to the freshdate, I get bumped up, then come back down after the date appears.

mipapage




msg:107196
 7:07 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

In my category, a couple of the sites above me receive freshdates, but don't disappear. They're older sites, with little if any change from month to month.

I see the same. Age is important!

One thing I forgot to add - this is curious. I checked the same data center. For key word Blue widgets, there is a fresh tag of June 29th (on page 9 of results). However for key word widgets, there is no fresh tag date and page 1. This is on the same data center. Can someone who has greater technical knowledge explain this?

I've seen it, but can't explain it! Maybe the particular serp hasn't been updated yet?

jk3210




msg:107197
 8:13 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>Freshboost: A perceive ranking boost caused by the freshbot.<<

Freshboost is a temporary ranking boost given when Freshbot finds a NEW page, not each time it visits a page that's already in the index.

A "Fresh Tag" doesn't necessarily indicate a Freshboost.

DroffatsX3




msg:107198
 9:05 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

I'm having the same problem on one of my sites of rankings dropping when freshdate appears. If someone can tell me how to ban freshbot, I'll try it for a couple of days and see what happens.

mipapage




msg:107199
 9:55 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

I'm having the same problem on one of my sites of rankings dropping when freshdate appears. If someone can tell me how to ban freshbot, I'll try it for a couple of days and see what happens.

Not such a good idea, as Google's Fresh and Deepbot are one and the same. You ban it and you're not going to do to well in the big G...

crobb305




msg:107200
 10:00 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

"For people who are getting flushed down the serps when they receive freshdates, are you checking the pages that rise above you? I mean, do they have freshdates too?

my observation with my site is that the top 10 sites in the search results remained virtually unchanged (Stable) when I get/lose the freshdate stamp. The difference is, when I get the freshdate, my site sinks to page 3. When the freshdate is gone, I go back to my previous position. Again, the other sites seem stable and also get/lose the freshdate at the same time.

mipapage




msg:107201
 10:04 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

Freshboost is a temporary ranking boost given when Freshbot finds a NEW page, not each time it visits a page that's already in the index.

If this is true, it is important. I have been 'dropping' in the serps when two older sites get freshed and mine reverts back to the 'missing index' state.

#1 in the first msg was due to what I observed above, but I guess then the reason that I am dropping isn't that they are freshed and I am not, it's that I am 'losing' my index page. As this seems to be an age issue, I can't wait for the next 'update' or the start of the 'rolling update'

mipapage




msg:107202
 10:07 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

crobb305,

are you basically saying that although nothing changes in the content of the ten results on the serp, when Fresh tags appear your page drops a bit and then rebounds when the tags are gone?

Ltribe




msg:107203
 10:17 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

mipapage,

That's what happens to me. Disappear when freshtag appears. Later return to exactly the same place.

Tropical Island




msg:107204
 10:21 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

This is not a new problem. Last year one of our sites would go from #8 to #13 everytime it got a fresh date. It was driving us crazy as it would put us from the first page to the second. As soon as the fresh tag disappeared it would revert to #8. We change information on the front page on a daily basis.

Ltribe




msg:107205
 10:23 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

Tropical_Island,

You said it happened last year. Did it stop? Has it restarted for you?

crobb305




msg:107206
 10:30 pm on Jul 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

crobb305,

are you basically saying that although nothing changes in the content of the ten results on the serp, when Fresh tags appear your page drops a bit and then rebounds when the tags are gone?

Yep..that's what is happening. And my site is fresh too.

C

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