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Google June 2003 : Update Esmeralda Part 3
GoogleGuy




msg:113772
 7:15 am on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Continued from: [webmasterworld.com...]


Has anyone here ever heard of a Kalman filter? It's a mathematical way of building a model of the world. The math is pretty complex, but basically you try to build a model of the thing you're trying to represent. When you get a new data point, you update your model's estimate about the state of things.

Why am I talking about this? Well, Kalman filters have a knob that blends between how much you believe your model vs. how much you believe each new data point. If you tweak the knob all the way in one direction, you always trust the model and any new input just gets ignored. On the other extreme, you can ignore your current estimates about the state of the world, and only trust each new data point as it comes in. If you set the knob too far in that direction, the object you're trying to model jumps all over the place each time you see even a hint of new info.

Lots of people here are getting more stressed than they need to be--their knobs are turned a little too far toward worrying about the very last thing that happened: "Now my subpage is coming up higher than it should! Okay, now my index page is back and the SERPs look good. Gaaack! Now I'm showing well at DC but the subpage still shows up higher at FI! Too much pressure--I'm going to drink now, and start spamming every FFA I see tomorrow!" :)

If you look around, you'll notice not too many senior members posting here. They chime in every so often, but their knobs are twisted further in the other direction. They know that the index switchover takes a little time to settle, and they have the perspective not to get too worried about things right now, and in general.

I haven't posted much of my take lately, but if I could give advice, it would probably be: don't panic. Here's what I would expect. Probably about one data center per day will get switched to the Esmeralda index. You may see some improvements during the course of the switchover as ingredients get blended in as they're ready. I would expect another round of ingredient-adding after the index is switched over.

So: if you're really into Google-watching as a sport, I would check in once a day to see what data centers have been switched, and maybe to run 2-3 searches. Browse a little while, and then come back the next day. Find something fun to do at night besides poring over every last thing that GoogleGuy (or whoever) posts on WebmasterWorld. You'll feel better, I promise.

This is just my take. You're welcome to ignore it. But I mention it because during this index, I heard about a lot of good and bad searches from webmasters, and the more I dig, the more confident I am that things will turn out well.

 

mfishy




msg:113862
 7:48 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

<<If people would spend less time figuring out the spam-of-the-week trick and optimizing for a moving target, they might have less reason to complain about Google's "instability." >>

I am not complaining about Google's instability. If anything the increased importance of fresh makes ranking quite easy.

Also, I happen to be doing quite well, as for usual in the new index. I prefer to, however, stay in front of the curve.

As to putting all my eggs in one basket. This is why myself and nearly everyone here works with a multitude of websites.

Lastly, if you catch the new "spam flavor" at the right moment, you can make a ton of money. Who cares if it's fleeting? A domain costs $10.

Europe, You ARE correct though, that building content sites in general will be a much more steady and less stressful business. It is not, however, the business that all webmasters are in.

[edited by: mfishy at 7:57 pm (utc) on June 18, 2003]

steveb




msg:113863
 7:50 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

"Come on, PR is part of the index."

Have you read GoogleGuy's posts? This index is not "done". He has said so several times now.

Pages put up after April 15 or so still show no PR.

soapystar




msg:113864
 7:51 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

the idea unstability means nothing to the user is not true....many normal users will search for something..explore a few sites..then go back them some time later..many will not bookmark and will assume the same search will find the same sites....when this doesnt happen you have a confused and unhappy browser...its only a trickle affect but like many have pointed out..we have seen this before with alta vista..stability is important for the long term...

Napoleon




msg:113865
 8:09 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

>> I would agree with you if there really was much analysis going on, but there isn't. <<

Well there is... I did an 18 hour non-stop shift on the darned thing 2 days ago. It was killing.

>> Looking at only your own site is not analysis.<<

Exactly... which is why I asked for, and received, data from other webmasters.

I think you have to accept than when someone sees their livelihood disappear from WWW2/3 they ain't going to start working on their site. They are going run around trying to find out what is going on, but usually not really knowing where to look.

That's completely understandable. It's human.

I've had some poor guy who wouldn't know SEO if it hit him in the face crying at me on the phone for 3 days. He's been glued to his PC looking at WWW2 (he read about it in the press!) seeing his site come and go like nobodies business.

He only calmed down a bit when I passed on GoogleGuy's comment that it was likely to sort itself out as the dance proceeded... but that was only from total panic to verging on panic.

A little knowledge can sometimes not only be dangerous, but can be REALLY bad for the nervous system.

>> Where is the discussion about what those sites might have in common? <<

There has been some. The reality though is that until things settle this is difficult. It is not impossible though, which is why I make an effort.

I just think sometimes it is necessary to understand where people are coming from. Many are gripped by fear, and to tell them to take a walk or build content isn't really going to help.

By the way, I really did like your first post GG, knobs and all. It put the current process into perspective and I'm sure helped a lot of people, even if it didn't convince them to 'take a walk'.

Actually, having got that off my chest, I think I'll go and 'take a beer' instead of a walk!

AthlonInside




msg:113866
 8:18 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

> Have you read GoogleGuy's posts? This index is not "done". He has said so several times now.

Have you read GoogleGuy's posts? He has said UNLESS you know how to configure your host file and know what is DNS, toolbarqueries.google.com, datacenters ... you will see the PR in Flux.

Everyone know the index is not ALL "done". But they are done with 3 datacenters. New Index contains NEW PRs because PRs are part of an Index.

[edited by: AthlonInside at 8:21 pm (utc) on June 18, 2003]

MyWifeSays




msg:113867
 8:21 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

OK I don't feel like going for a walk round the lake, I'm fed up with checking my positions and I don't feel the creative urge to add more content to my site so I'm offering a bit of info. to the community.

Some months ago I copied a page on my site and changed the link to the new page. The new page no longer appears in the index but the old one does. There are no links to the old page.

I'd say either the new algo prefers older pages or perhaps the PR data being used on fi is months old.

beachlover




msg:113868
 8:28 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

I think the directory got updated with a new DMOZ dump. And the order by PR is new.

Someone else seeing this?

europeforvisitors




msg:113869
 8:31 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

steveb wrote:

And if you stop fixating on your site and look around, you will see that those things have not been universally valued the past six weeks.

And if you'll re-read my post, you'll note that I referred to the "long haul" (which is considerably longer than six weeks unless you're a fruit fly).

dvduval




msg:113870
 8:31 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

I see the new index on WWW. Is this new?
(sorry for being such a Google Watcher!)

Chndru




msg:113871
 8:36 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

I see the new index too.

europeforvisitors




msg:113872
 8:42 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

the idea unstability means nothing to the user is not true....many normal users will search for something..explore a few sites..then go back them some time later..many will not bookmark and will assume the same search will find the same sites.... stability is important for the long term...

How long should the results be stable? During the current session? For a day? For a week?

I can understand the value of having the same search results during a session, since it may be convenient to back up a few pages in Google's SERPS and revist a site that one clicked on earlier. But it's hard to understand how a spider-based search engine could offer stable search results (even on a given keyword or keyphrase) for an extended length of time. New pages get published, old pages get deleted, other pages get new titles, and so on. A search engine like Google isn't a relatively static directory like Yahoo or DMOZ. It's like an abridged version of the Web, and the Web is changing all the time.

JoeHouse




msg:113873
 8:52 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Can someone please explain to me once these 9 datacenters are finished updating, how long does it take to get into the main Google index? Its wonderful that this update is happening but until I get into the main index I am not seeing any real traffic difference. Would someone be so kind to forward this info to me. thanks!

ogletree




msg:113874
 8:39 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

[www-fi.google.com...]
[www-ex.google.com...]
[www-sj.google.com...]
[www-va.google.com...]
[www-dc.google.com...]
[www-ab.google.com...]
[www-in.google.com...]
[www-zu.google.com...]
[www2.google.com...]
[www3.google.com...]

Let me know if I missed anything or if you want to describe each one. Like where it is or functions that we have seen them do. Like last update sj had the new stuff and this update is on fi.

WebMistress




msg:113875
 8:54 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

AthlonInside,

What part of what GG said, don't you get?: "Expect to see more scoring factors percolating throughout, and probably some more percolation after all the data centers have the index data"?

More percolation says this is not the final index. So, you can look at the PR on www2, etc right now, but how do YOU know it's stable? I think it is as reliable as your semi-penalty thread which had poor newbies all running to change their H1 tags, and trying to get their backlinks to not have too much anchor text...I feel bad for those poor lads in next month's update when all the changes made based on your theory will make them fall in the SERPS.

You may OBSERVE the PR being different on -fi, etc. But it doesn't NECESSARILY mean this is a site's new PR. So, don't freak the newbies out.

WebMistress




msg:113876
 8:55 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

ogletree, you missed:

[www-cw.google.com...]

swerve




msg:113877
 8:55 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Have you read GoogleGuy's posts? He has said UNLESS you know how to configure your host file and know what is DNS, toolbarqueries.google.com, datacenters ... you will see the PR in Flux.

Not exactly.

But he did say:
I just wanted to echo what Brett was saying about PR in flux. I've seen several searches, including a few that Napoleon was kind enough to pass on (thanks Napoleon!), and many of those are still affected by pending PR computation. I wouldn't worry about PR until things settle down a little more; indeed, you might want to wait a few days after people call the index switchover complete before you draw conclusions about what your PR is. Just wanted to chime in with that so that people not to worry too much. Hope it helps people to know that some PR is still stewing in the back.

markus007




msg:113878
 8:55 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Anyone else noticing the Google directory acting up? One minute i have the category icon active on the toolbar and the next its gone. I am no longer showing in the google directory though :(

webjunkie




msg:113879
 8:56 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Just wanted to throw in my own observations. My site has seen a slight drop from number one positions to just within the top 5 for my keywords. From what I can see using my site only as an idicator would be this.

1)I added title tags, headers, etc.. to my floorplan pages on my site. I inserted alt text to reflect my keywords. These pages offer only a short description and a floorplan. No real spider text worth mentioning. It is highly relevant but then again I'm no spider. :))

2)I was very busy adding reciprocal links lately it is possible that one or more is dragging me down. I will do a check when PR has calmed and do away with a site if it seems to be under penalty.:)

Just trying to offer a little analysis. Anyone else feel that they may have dropped for similar reasons, please sticky or post.

webjunkie

skylighter




msg:113880
 8:58 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

In the new update, there is a website at the top of all of my keywords where the guy uses Addweb Linktrader for all of his incoming links. Isnít that considered a Free for All link exchange?

He also has at least 3 links to every page on his website on every page of his website. It is like having 3 site maps on every page. This doesnít include the heavily linked main text on every page. On his primary page, he literally has 4 or 5 links to every page.

Are either of these things considered Google SPAM? It seems they should be, but I donít want to send false reports to Google if they are not.

What surprises me is that these things are working very well for him. He has completely covered the SERPS in our industry for Esmeralda.

webjunkie




msg:113881
 9:04 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Skylighter,

It makes perfect sense to link all of your pages on every page within your site. You should at least always have a link to your homepage. Not sure why you believe this might be spam?

If the user clicks on one link and decides that it's not for them they will probably want to see something else within the same site. At least from a marketing standpoint I would think that you would at least offer them the chance.

webjunkie

steveb




msg:113882
 9:07 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Thanks for digging that up swerve.

It bears repeating that at least two of the oddities of the current -fi could easily be addressed by the factoring in of PR and other factors that GoogleGuy has mentioned, *after* the current data is on the datacenters. Once again, ignore the toolbar PR now.

incywincy




msg:113883
 9:09 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

i always believed that good navigational structure is to be rewarded not punished.

JasonHamilton




msg:113884
 9:17 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

<<He also has at least 3 links to every page on his website on every page of his website. It is like having 3 site maps on every page. This doesnít include the heavily linked main text on every page. On his primary page, he literally has 4 or 5 links to every page.>>

Any site worth it's salt needs to have good UI, and that includes proper navigation. A simple "Back" or "Home" button doesn't cut it. If anything, the lack of navigation should be punished ;)

F_Ali




msg:113885
 9:28 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hi,
Can anyone help me, i have 2 sites on google the problem is that when i type the domain name on google lets say mysite the results that i get do now actually show my frontpage. it rather shows a sidepage and other links that point to my sites but nowhere not even on the last page do i see the frontpage.

Is there possibly something wrong with my 2 sites. On one of my sites if you type in the domain name www.mysite.com i don't see a description for the site but just ringtones and thats it.

My sites come and go throughout the dominic update and esperado update.

Please help

mfishy




msg:113886
 9:29 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

<<It bears repeating that at least two of the oddities of the current -fi could easily be addressed by the factoring in of PR >>

Yah, it would definitely explain Google ranking #23 for search engine.

I noticed PR showing on some new sites and my guess is that it is still VERY out of whack. Pages with links from PR 6 & 7 pages showing PR 3? This cannot be the final computation, unless there has been an enormous change made to the way PR is calculated.

teeceo




msg:113887
 9:30 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Now i'm seeing dropped sites with PR but no slerp's and they have backlinks but, the only way you can see them is if your on the url and do a rightclick, backlinks check. Anyone esle seeing this and do you know whats going on? Thanks all

teeceo.

MetropolisRobot




msg:113888
 9:36 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

If there is anything that people should have learned from all the recent changes at Google it's that over reliance on one traffic generating system has drawbacks.

People term the index changes as disasters, but I ask, what makes a disaster? Look at floods. Why are floods a disaster?

Because people are affected. Because they made decisions to live in a certain place (floodplain usually). The river is doing what it has always done (filling up, covering the land). Its us by our activity who cause the flood to be a disaster.

In the same way that its people who have based their whole business on their ability to come near the top in Google are suddenly saying things are a "disaster". People who have looked at the web as more than Google have not regarded all the changes as a disaster.

Build a better business strategy. Spread the risk. Your business will be better for it in the long run.

WebMistress




msg:113889
 9:36 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

F_Ali

Had the same problem for a month, but site is back now and doing well. Loooonnnng month! Likely nothing wrong with your site and it will recover in time.

jeff123a




msg:113890
 9:40 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

GG,

Thanks for getting this started.

Back to the idea of turning the knob.

What is the knob setting that allows a portal site for one of the largest ISP's in the US to remain #2 for our most important keywords? This site has no information about the keywords. It just provides the opportunity to do a search (provided by Google) for the very same keywords.

aurora




msg:113891
 9:40 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Sorry in advance for a very Newbie question. I have read lots of info on the update but can't find any answers.
As I understand www2 and www3 filter through to www temporaraly through the dance but I have not noticed this at all. Also -fi. I had hoped to see rises on my hits at certain times during the day as my site is not listed on www (dropped for some reason on the last update) over the last week but No.1 on 3, 2, and fi at present.
Will this postion stay when the update is finished or are the final results from one of the other data centers?
Thank you for your help.

WebMistress




msg:113892
 9:41 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

"In the same way that its people who have based their whole business on their ability to come near the top in Google are suddenly saying things are a "disaster". People who have looked at the web as more than Google have not regarded all the changes as a disaster."

If I have the best marketing strategy in the world with tons of traffic and sales from tons of places, and also get a huge amount of my traffic and sales from google, and google dops me, that can be devastating...I'm used to those sales from google and live according to the income I generate from ALL.

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