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Google June 2003 : Update Esmeralda Part 3
GoogleGuy




msg:113772
 7:15 am on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Continued from: [webmasterworld.com...]


Has anyone here ever heard of a Kalman filter? It's a mathematical way of building a model of the world. The math is pretty complex, but basically you try to build a model of the thing you're trying to represent. When you get a new data point, you update your model's estimate about the state of things.

Why am I talking about this? Well, Kalman filters have a knob that blends between how much you believe your model vs. how much you believe each new data point. If you tweak the knob all the way in one direction, you always trust the model and any new input just gets ignored. On the other extreme, you can ignore your current estimates about the state of the world, and only trust each new data point as it comes in. If you set the knob too far in that direction, the object you're trying to model jumps all over the place each time you see even a hint of new info.

Lots of people here are getting more stressed than they need to be--their knobs are turned a little too far toward worrying about the very last thing that happened: "Now my subpage is coming up higher than it should! Okay, now my index page is back and the SERPs look good. Gaaack! Now I'm showing well at DC but the subpage still shows up higher at FI! Too much pressure--I'm going to drink now, and start spamming every FFA I see tomorrow!" :)

If you look around, you'll notice not too many senior members posting here. They chime in every so often, but their knobs are twisted further in the other direction. They know that the index switchover takes a little time to settle, and they have the perspective not to get too worried about things right now, and in general.

I haven't posted much of my take lately, but if I could give advice, it would probably be: don't panic. Here's what I would expect. Probably about one data center per day will get switched to the Esmeralda index. You may see some improvements during the course of the switchover as ingredients get blended in as they're ready. I would expect another round of ingredient-adding after the index is switched over.

So: if you're really into Google-watching as a sport, I would check in once a day to see what data centers have been switched, and maybe to run 2-3 searches. Browse a little while, and then come back the next day. Find something fun to do at night besides poring over every last thing that GoogleGuy (or whoever) posts on WebmasterWorld. You'll feel better, I promise.

This is just my take. You're welcome to ignore it. But I mention it because during this index, I heard about a lot of good and bad searches from webmasters, and the more I dig, the more confident I am that things will turn out well.

 

Kackle




msg:113802
 3:05 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

<snip>

<edit>

WE do not copy in email or stickymail messages in this forum

</edit>

[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 3:20 pm (utc) on June 18, 2003]

Chicago




msg:113803
 3:05 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

< personal edit >

[edited by: Chicago at 4:05 pm (utc) on June 18, 2003]

Go60Guy




msg:113804
 3:11 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

I do not view GG's post as being in any way condescending. It was offered in the most helpful spirit possible.

AthlonInside




msg:113805
 3:14 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

FI, DC and VA has the new index.

There are 4 more active datacenters to go, i.e EX, AB, IN, & CW.

ZU and SJ are inactive datacenters. Search on them will be redirected to 1 of the 7 active datacenters. So just ignore them.

We could expect the update to be complete in another 4-5 days. (Everything should be completed before Monday)

Search on WWW3 are actually the same as search on FI because WWW3 will perform the search on FI.

New PR can be seen by setting up your HOSTS file to point to one of the datacenters with the new index.

Alphawolf




msg:113806
 3:15 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

GoogleGuy,

If you look around, you'll notice not too many senior members posting here. They chime in every so often, but their knobs are twisted further in the other direction. They know that the index switchover takes a little time to settle, and they have the perspective not to get too worried about things right now, and in general.

Mmm. Yes. Must be nice to have a couple years worth of sites and experience to steer in any direction one needs. :)

This thread would be more interesting if people posted:

1) How many domains are under their control.
2) PR of main page for each site
3) Total number of pages under control
4) Age of domains

Senior members will tend to have enough resources [money, domains, past experience] to insulate themselves from algo tweaks as much as possible.

AW

chrisnrae




msg:113807
 3:18 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

"Meh, I don't see why everyone stresses about Google so much.
If the position and traffic comes, great. If they don't, life bites - live with it."

LOL... I think for some of us anyway, thousands ride on google, so it is easy to get a bit stressed.

This update has been a bit more stressful for most, because usually, www remains stable with last months results while fluttering about the new ones on the other data centers. But, that is not the case this time.

At any rate, nothing we can do but wait.

dazzlindonna




msg:113808
 3:19 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

ncsuk,

You're right, my site is *relatively* new, although after "patiently" sitting through Dominic and now Esmeralda, it doesn't feel new. Here's my theory on what is happening to at least some of the sites that are disappearing (although, certainly not those that have been around for a long time).

As we know, Dominic reverted to an older dataset, so basically all the sites like mine that were deepcrawled after that timeperiod that Dominic reverted to, basically was trashed. It was as though we were not deepcrawled at all. So, the popping in and out that we are seeing is the normal freshbot type of activity.

My worry? Because I was never *truly* deepcrawled (I was, but google trashed it), I will be in a permanent state of freshbot flux.

GG says that freshbot can now act like deepbot, so I suppose that's the answer to my worry - maybe it will just take YET ANOTHER DANCE for my site to finally show up permanently. But honestly, the way this whole thing has played out over the last couple of months, I'm not confident that I can depend upon that.

dvduval




msg:113809
 3:20 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Alphawolf,

I'm not sure of your tone, but those are good points.
Also bear in mind that the Senior members were once newbies. It takes time, but there is definitely a payoff if you work at it. In some very competitive searches, it has taken me over a year to get satisfactory results. In other cases, I've found niches that paid off in less than 30 days. Am I rich yet? Absolutely not.

Brett_Tabke




msg:113810
 3:21 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

> domains, past experience] to insulate themselves
> from algo tweaks as much as possible.

Therein lies the rub. Make yourself free of the whims of the algo.

Google is just the onramp - your site is the freeway.

dvduval




msg:113811
 3:23 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

I think the interesting part is yet to come. It seems apparent that once the new SERPS are at all the data centers, we are going to see some intersting activity from Super Deep Fresh Bot. If they are able to do one datacenter per day as GG said, things could start getting interesting within a week.

dvduval




msg:113812
 3:26 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

My question is which freeway should I get on in order to head toward the right Kalman filter World model?

ncsuk




msg:113813
 3:29 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Nice analogy Brett

Perhaps for the newbs amongst us you can give a little more of an explanation so there is no confusion.

peterdaly




msg:113814
 3:32 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Perhaps for the newbs amongst us you can give a little more of an explanation so there is no confusion.

Brett means (I think) make your site so that once people find you with google (or another search engine), they will come back to your site on their own. Therefore you establish an "existing customer base" which is equal to or greater the "new customer traffic" google (or others) create for you.

At that point you are somewhat isolated from the whims of the search engines on a month to month basis.

The most important step is to create a site with enough value that people will return on their own.

-Pete

stavs




msg:113815
 3:35 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

on all 9 data centers our site now appears #1 in the SERPS for the search term; 'blue widgit' - but does NOT show up for the plural, 'blue widgets'.

the site is only optimized for the plural: blue widgets - i.e. title, all incoming link text, etc.

a sure sign in my mind that something has gone wrong.

Alphawolf




msg:113816
 3:41 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

I'm not sure of your tone, but those are good points.

My tone was utterly pragmatic. GoogleGuy would have people believe if you take time and cultivate a site and play by their guidelines all will be fine.

What is one of the top things taught by financial institutions? Diversify. Think in terms of a financial portfolio because it is a finiancial portfolio.

Would you put all your money on 1 stock? 5?

Or...

Have multiple sites in the following categories:

High risk
Medium risk
Low risk

You have SERPs that are:

Very competitive
Somewhat competitive
Not very competitive

Regardless of the outcome of this update it's clear to me what I need to do. YMMV.

Regards,

AW

troi21




msg:113817
 3:41 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

athloninside
thanks for the info. i just checked and -dc and -va seem to have different SERPs than -fi. Things are sure getting confusing again.

BigDave




msg:113818
 3:44 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

I was extremely luck on the timing of my first 3 updates, I was out of town or on the trail for most of the update. When I got back I would notice these huge update threads and the all would read pretty much the same, every month. Those huge threads were almost always filled up with posts by about a dozen people either crying about their results or running a play by play of the different data centers.

Most of the old timers avoid the update thread for this reason, it just doesn't offer much value and you can't change the results now anyway.

GoogleGuy and the mods don't have that luxury, but you can bet that it gets old for them too.

So if being patient is not in the cards for you, at least consider paying attention to the "Don't Panic" advice. Panicing isn't going to change the situation.

If you were to for a nice walk around the lake, you would be in the exact same position in google as if sit watching every data center. If you spend that time working on your site, you would be in the same position with this update, but you might improve your fresh listings and your position in the next update.

And now here's a handy little trick for those of you that are interested. If you are in a position where you could use some help, don't annoy the person that can help you. If GG considers you to be a rational person in most cases, he WILL take your comments and complaints much more seriously. This also works well at airline counters, if it is a pleasure to help you out, then you mightt be surprised at the results. If you are a huge pain, then you will get the minimum required service.

shaoye




msg:113819
 3:45 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

GG, you should make over $200k/year.
Pl. keep your spirit up and do not feel underpaid if not that much...;-))) Money is not everything...

1. GG help google clean up spams.
2. GG help WW attract so much more traffic (win-win for Google and WW).
3. GG can spend his time creating his own sites to make profits like most of us if not spending time here, as he knows SEO more than most if not all of us. If SEO can make 200k (and someone makes $50k/month), why not GG.
4. GG has to fight the lure of money and keeps his selfishlessness. Not easy.

skipfactor




msg:113820
 3:45 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

...we are going to see some intersting activity from Super Deep Fresh Bot.

I'm seeing crawl-like activity today, grabbing new pages linked from a weak page that Freshbot hasn't followed to date.

Visit Thailand




msg:113821
 3:51 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

A restaurant does not need to advertise in every major magazine, nor does it need to take billboards.

If your restaurant supplies what is expected and the quality is good enough then people will come and return two fold, and then as this continues you may well need to expand, bringing on an entirely new set of problems.

What I am saying is worry about what matters, and what you can control, and the only thing more important than SE results (especially for smaller companies) no matter where they are from, are your present visitors as they are the ones that can bring you a lot of highly targetted traffic.

Ever heard of the Pyramid Sales technique? In a way the internet is like that, the only different is the interent is legal, and easier.

dazzlindonna




msg:113822
 3:52 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

peterdaly,

The most important step is to create a site with enough value that people will return on their own.

Problem is for those of us with *relatively* new sites (up before Dominic, but Dominic never included us) - People can't return to a site that they don't know about in the first place! That's why we are so worried about getting into Google. If my site was a year old, and had been in Google all that time, I would be much more likely to focus on getting users to return to my site. But that is not the case for me. They can't return - because they haven't been there yet!

And yes, I'm doing everything I can to get them there via non-Google methods, but we all know that Google is where all the traffic really is - so we have no choice but to concentrate on Google.

twilight47




msg:113823
 3:58 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

I get the same for dc, va, fi.
Albeit a fairly narrow search.
However, links for yahoo match.
sj keeps switching back and forth.

wbienek




msg:113824
 4:08 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Stragnge days. Definate improvment.

It almost seems like their playing with algo's like they were before this 'dance' PLUS doing a dance.. Very strange..

AthlonInside




msg:113825
 4:09 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

> sj keeps switching back and forth.

SJ keep switching because it is an INACTIVE datacenter, All search in SJ will be redirected to other ACTIVE datacenters.

Net_Wizard




msg:113826
 4:14 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Just my 2 cents...

My old site have remained stable from Dominic to Esmeralda and I suspect it will remain stable to Fatima(?) Have not lost PR, backlinks not much changes which is pretty normal in any Google data centers. In terms of ranking, not much movement in there either, in fact I have #1 position for a 2 word phrase which seems to be stuck in there regardless of what's going on.

My newer site is pretty much the same(PR and backlinks) except for the recently added pages.

I'm a believer of quality content and not so much on the SEO side of things, I don't bother excessively with things such as keyword density, tags, anchors, etc., etc.. I simply make things of value and easier for my users. Of course this is just my opinion and may not reflect the current SEO way of things.

I also believe that the current SE's algorithm are getting more smarter and starting to look at sites on a bigger picture schema and not on a page by page basis. They are not quite there yet but Google is leading the pace.

Cheers

mahlon




msg:113827
 4:19 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hey everyone, this is a fun update!

Can someone add links to all the Google servers; dc, va, fi? Thank you!

mipapage




msg:113828
 4:24 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Athloninside,

We've touched on this together before but what do you mean by:

SJ keep switching because it is an INACTIVE datacenter, All search in SJ will be redirected to other ACTIVE datacenters.

I agree with you that it is inactive. I have been getting different Serps on SJ since Cassandra, and have never seen those results on www.google, except rare occasions during the Dominic update. It is clear to me that it isn't used as a live datacenter. (I wish it was 'cause we're #1 in those serps for almost everything we optimize for!)

But certainly if I type in www-sj.google I am querying that server, no?


And what the heck are they doing with that server anyway?
Dolemite




msg:113829
 4:29 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hey everyone, this is a fun update!

Can someone add links to all the Google servers; dc, va, fi? Thank you!

LOL...noob award of the year, after 274 posts. ;)

Google datacenters:

www-xx.google.com, where xx=dc, sj, fi, ex, va, etc.

AthlonInside




msg:113830
 4:30 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

mipapage,

Google has 9 datacenters - EX, DC, FI, SJ, VA, AB, IN, CW & ZU.

when you search on WWW, the search in done on either 1 of the 9 datacenters randomly. (That's why people keep saying data is in flux on whatever in every update thread).

But currently SJ and ZU is inactive, so search on WWW will be redirected to 1 of the 7 active datacenters.

AthlonInside




msg:113831
 4:32 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

> But certainly if I type in www-sj.google I am querying that server, no?

Yes or No. Depends. SJ is a real datacenter but a search on www-SJ might be a search on that datacenter or is just a redirect to other active datacenters. That depends solely on Goolge Inc, Mountain View, CA to determine the answer.

But what for sure is search on WWW will not be redirected to it for the recent weeks.

mahlon




msg:113832
 4:34 pm on Jun 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

LOL...noob award of the year, after 274 posts. ;)

Thank you! What do I get?

when you search on WWW, the search in done on either 1 of the 9 datacenters randomly. (That's why people keep saying data is in flux on whatever in every update thread).

I'm not that dumb! I just lost all my bookmarks and I'm too dam lazy to type them in!

[edited by: mahlon at 6:38 pm (utc) on June 18, 2003]

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