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This 249 message thread spans 9 pages: 249 ( [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > >     
Google June 2003 : Update Esmeralda Part 2

 3:17 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Continued from: [webmasterworld.com...]

MurphyDog/johnser/bokesch, sound like all your sites will benefit from those extra links over time. If we didn't get the site into this index, sounds like we'll get it soon. It's fun to watch expectations change. MurphyDog launched his site a week or so ago and is chomping at the bit for it to show up. Give it just a little bit of time--we should find the site soon. :)

P.S. I won't be posting as often (gotta work, ya know :), but I will be checking this post and chiming in when there's something I can add.



 3:19 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Ok for anybody with there site missing for keywords they should be ranked high/ok with try this -

enter your "keyword/keywords" into www2 or www-fi

go right to the end of the results until it says - repeat the search with the omitted results included

Then it takes you back to the 1st page of results.

I have found that when I do that my site reappears in the position in the SERP's at where I would expect it to be!?

Anyone else see the same?


 3:21 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

No, my site still gets outranked by a one page redirect.


 3:23 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

dazz, you can accomplish the same thing by adding "&filter=0" to the end of your search. That filter is for pruning out duplicate pages. You might want to look through the search results--sounds like someone could be returning identical content as your site?

That might not be it, but just wanted to let you know how that can happen and that you might want to check for it.


 3:29 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

is Google treating this as duplicate content. It has the main page of a site listed 4 times:


it just so happens that this page lost it's positioning and was replaced by internal pages several pages later?

site did not lose PR
each version of above, has it's own PR

Seem like a lot of people that lost a lot of rankings for their main page have this multiple listing in common.


 3:29 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Duplicate is what I suspect but its actually duplicating with mydomain.com and www.mydomain.com.

It ranks both of them completely different.

I have actually asked the guy who linked to my site as mydomain.com to change it to www.mydomain.com, as I think that is causing the problem of having a duplicate index page.

The link is from a PR7 page which is the highest link it has but there are about 200 other links to www.mydomain.com.

So it seems I have managed to knock myself out of the good SERP's by getting a PR7 link.....but not hyperlinked correctly!


 3:40 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)


This doesn't seem to be the case why my index page is missing - not sure about everybody else who has posted here with the same problem, but from what was posted, they also didn't suggest it was a duplicate problem.

Hopefully GG can confirm whether we can expect this to be a long term thing- as it was certainly part of Dominic


 3:40 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I'm a newbie, and I have learned a ton over the last week or so, but I wanted to make sure I have an understanding of the Dance:

1) Lasts 3-7 days
2) To check the new backlinks, I can go to fi.google.com and type link:mydomain.com and they will show
3) I have no idea what to do with toolbarqueries.google.com and I can't find any documentation on it. Can anyone shed light?

Are there any other areas for me to know about when checking my site's status during The Dance?


 3:50 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

If you are allowed to edit your .htaccess file, it is very simple to add a single rule to sort this out.

RewriteEngine on
RewriteCond %{HTTP_HOST} ^yourdomain.com$
RewriteRule ^(.+) http://www.yourdomain.com/$1 [L,R=301]

This means that if your site is accessed with the domain name yourdomain.com , the page will be redirected to the coresponding page on www.yourdomain.com, with the 301 header (permanent redirect)

Edit accordingly for your domain name



 3:53 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

About time they ditched the index page weighting, if indeed they have...

They haven't. Still- plenty of index pages in various SERP's with zero content...see my message where I drill down a Top 10 for a SERP.

Just to add so it's kinda sorta useful... ;)

This algo shift to not ranking index pages is not consistent in SERPS.

The SERP I am watching still has two "old school" index pages listed as #1 and #2 on the most used phrase for the industry...purely backlink driven. Zero content on index page. Just entrance pages.

If the algo was tweaked to prefer inner content pages, it's being applied randomly. :)



[edited by: Alphawolf at 5:59 pm (utc) on June 16, 2003]


 3:54 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I've seen my incoming links slashed in half! I can only hope this doesn't stick.


 3:55 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)


My index page has Perfect Ranking. :) I have removed everything which I think can trigger the penalty (H1, keyword repetition ...) long ago.

My index page even replaced some sites which has been dropped out by the so-called semi penalty - making me rank as high as Mount Everest.

Yahooooo! or should I Gooooooogleeeeee!


 3:59 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Dominic gave my site a bad affiliate URL that we had seen in January and had been corrected in the next update. Now, that affiliate URL has been dropped and my main domain does not figure in the SERPs at all. I did find another page listed on the 6th page or so on www-fi.

Does this mean that my site too is suffering from index page not being found in the SERPs? I am just very puzzled as I continue to see the following domains listed: one 100% irrelevant site (now for over a year with just 9 backlinks left) and a site that does not exist anymore but redirects to its hosting company.

GoogleGuy, any clue why the listing for my domain was dropped?


 4:01 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I just did the "allanchor" search in -fi. For my search term "widgets" I am 5th, but in the acutal result without allanchor, I am nowhere to be found. Can anyone give me some ideas?


 4:02 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

"Did anybody else see their site(s) constantly moving in and out of the Dominic update and then for Esmeralda to drop them way down in the SERPS."

Yes, across the board. Sites that held top ranks for long whiles, bounced in and out between top spots and no where to be found all throughout dominic and now are gone totally so far in Esmerelda. This is on a variety of sites, a variety of keywords, a variety of webmasters.

"However, the new ranking algo seems a bit screwy as some of the web's oldest most established and authorotative sites are not showing up under searches they have been synonymous with."

Agree on that point as well. Established sites with good content and backlinmks that have consistently held top 5 on major keywords for over a year are now no where to be found. Some indexed and not showing, others not indexed at all, but showing hundreds of quality backlinks. Very weird.

"I'm wondering if a google is only counting backlinks that have been around for longer than 3 months."

I have been speculating this since before dominic... all of my sites are taking months to show a backlink when doing a link:domain.com search, even though the pages of other sites linked to me are cached with my link - yes, quality, related sites with my link being on a PR5 page. I am wondering if this is google's way of thwarting pagerank buying campaigns, or at least making them pay a lot more for it.

Is this "semi penalty" that keeps being mentioned something new or something old now being called by a new name?

One site I own has had ten new pages indexed and 50 new backlinks added with this update, yet, PR dropped. Weird.


 4:02 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Athlon, I think Google will never penalize you if you are using "H1" tags!


 4:14 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

<<I just did the "allanchor" search in -fi. For my search term "widgets" I am 5th, but in the acutal result without allanchor, I am nowhere to be found.>>

Yes, I am seeing this all over the place as well. Allinanchor #3 - nowhere. I have discussed earlier that they have really taken much importance from allinanchor I believe. If not, I am certain Google would rank much better for search engine


 4:21 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

"they also didn't suggest it was a duplicate problem."

Duplicate content seems to be one of the key factors. Google is having all sorts of problems with mysite.com versus www.mysite.com and with newhoo.com versus dmoz.org. I can't believe anybody takes that H1 tag stuff seriously. That obviously isn't involved as hardly anybody is effected by it, and many sites rank fine using it. Focus on what is actually going on here. When google has a choice between two pages, like identical newhoo and dmoz ones, it simply screws up which one to choose *lot of the time*. It's got nothing to do with tags or optimization.


 4:22 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

GG - something about the missing index page is so weird in this update. Instead of showing the most relevant page from a site (for the search terms), SERPs show some not so relevant page like contact or about pages..

I would think Dominic was better than this update in terms of search relevancy (although Dominic suffered non-inclusion of some sites) ..

Just my 0.02 FWIW.


 4:27 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)


I think you solved my "missing index page" problem with this:

dazz, you can accomplish the same thing by adding "&filter=0" to the end of your search.

<added>Note that this filter seems to work on any serp, not just ones with the 'omitted' msg </added>

I stick that at the end of the search, and my index page appears indented (along with a few others) under the main unindented internal page. Full fresh tag and all.

<added>In fact using that filter not only removes duplicate results that may appear indented, but also other pages from my domain that would appear further down in the serps. This would then be a good tool to see how all of your pages are doing in the serps that they normally filter out</added>

So it seems they may have done something to eliminate having >1 relevant result from the same site in the same SERP? (for me both the internal and index pages would be relevant here...)

Anyone else see this?

The index page that was showing in the serps (sans www.) may just be some as-yet-untrimmed-fat still present in the serp.

If this is the way it's going to be (posting relevant internal page rather than index page), I might suggest including the description and category tag for the internal pages of sites, as this is good information that I think helps Google users, certainly in the case of sites that I work with...

[edited by: mipapage at 4:44 pm (utc) on June 16, 2003]


 4:28 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Well so far the update looks ok. Every 1 page domain link farm is nowhere in sight.

The only thing that seems to be off so far is the PR. My homepage is still showing as a PR 4 but I recieved several PR 6's and PR 7 backlinks. Links off my homepage to internal pages are showing PR 0 to PR 4. When checking backlinks of other sites, i noticed that link:www.mydomain.com is showing links having PR 0. This can only mean that PR has not yet been taken into account. This may also explain why peoples index pages are no where to be found.


 4:41 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)


I am thinking about coming clean. I checked some of my partners, and most of them have been penalized with zero's for that page.

I am thinking about dropping links completely.

[edited by: jaffstar at 4:51 pm (utc) on June 16, 2003]


 4:43 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

markus007- New PR is not showing yet


 4:50 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

Bc i thought its doing good bc of those links but if those linsk are not showing then whats the reason its doin good now.

Just because a link doesn't show up doesn't mean that Google doesn't count it or doesn't know about it. They count all links but only show those above a certain threshold (such as from pages with a PR4 or higher).

What actually shows up on a backwards link search is arbitrary.


 5:09 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I can only speak for myself, but in my case, Google has appeared to be broken since Dominic.

Launched my site in Nov 02 with about 20% of my content. In April we completed the initial "population" of our content and from Nov - April, we slowly but surely made alot of progress in terms of traffic, google PR (to a 6), serps (#1 for our keywords that are not very competitive) and alexa rankings.

In March, we got into DMOZ and in early April appeared in Google Diretory. Once Dominic started, we fell way down in the serps for our main keywords (we were #1 for a few weeks), PR went back down to 5, alexa rankings fell through the floor and we are NO LONGER in Google Directory. All the while, our actual traffic continued to grow.

The real kicker is that now (since Esmerelda start) a few of the sites that moved above us are domains that are no longer even being used and are for sale.

I am a simple site operator, not technical in nature and dont do any SEO past making sure we are using our keywords. I know that i have not consciously done anything that would get us penalized, but for sure, we have fallen behind serps that link to domains that are not even sites any longer.

Can anyone explain how we could fall out of Google Directory when we were in there at the beginning of April and also how we could fall behind results that are not even valid links anymore (domain is not active)?

My own personal opinion is that Google has messed up their index and and we are still looking at old results. I base this opinion on the fact that there are results ahead of mine that go to "domains for sale" sites...we are no longer in Google directory and our page rank has not gone back to a 6. Not to mention most of our backlinks are gone, but i dont know enough about that to really comment.

I myself have started to use All the Web recently becuase of the mess i see with google. Not to mention that FAST has been crawling my site much deeper lately than google ever did.

Just a guy trying to figure out what might be my problem. Any insight is greatly appreciated.



 5:20 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

New sites will get a PR0 (or <1) for the first month or so. This is entirely normal. You need to start getting some incoming links from sites with higher PR.


 5:24 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have to agree that google is not working very well anymore. I think they'll figure it out though..

Example :

Sun City at Summerlin (an old age community)

Google returns a Chess Club!

Check Fast or Hotbot (Inktomi) to see the results that SHOULD come up. There are LOTS of examples like this where google returns poor results. The reason is google is starting to IGNORE what a page says about itself if it says it too much (What you call spamming or over optimization) and if the links pointing to a page say the same thing <A href='www.yourdomain.com'>What You Say</a> they're either ignored or not included. This is their solution to 'link spamming' They figure a link that says something only once or twice is 'original' and links that are identical are just part of link campaigns.

You can pretty much take this to the bank.


 5:29 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

I am just thinking - if we accept that the new index/traffic is only from 1 of 9 datacenters, should I multiply it by 9 to have some forecast of traffic when index settles (My rankings are up in this update)


 5:31 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

No - just wait until everything settles down in the next week or so and then count your traffic.


 5:34 pm on Jun 16, 2003 (gmt 0)

wbienek, we're dropping the "at" because it's a stopword. The first result is a settlement between the government and Sun City Summerlin, which is a pretty relevant result. If you do a phrase search like
"Sun City at Summerlin"
using quotes to ensure that we include the "at" in scoring, then the retirement community comes up first.

Checking out the backlinks, it looks like many more people are interesting in/linking to the DOJ settlement than the home page for the community; in effect, for the query about sun city summerlin, the web seems more interested in the company's settlement than the company's info page. Just wanted to explain that a little..

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