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Well there ever be another monthly update?
Seattle_SEM




msg:206579
 6:45 pm on Jun 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

Is it going to be days, weeks, or months, before the next update? At this point, I'm completely exasperated. I've had to explain the current situation ten different times, to my clients, and I don't even have enough information to explain the situation with a modicum of confidence.

Regardless of what everyone else says, I know that this is affecting the quality of the results which Google is providing to it's users - how could it not, the last deepcrawl results are from months ago. And what percentage of the results are from the deep crawler? 80%? 90%?

Try searching for Today is April 6th 2003 [google.com], this stuff hasn't been updated in months. How could this not affect the quality of user results?

All the work that I've done in the past two months is worthless, right now, and it hurts. I'm just asking for information, so I don't continue to look like a fool.

 

steveb




msg:206639
 6:34 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

The point of the thread is a guy complaining that his work of the past two months is worthless. Some people seem to confuse "listed" with "ranked well". I get all my pages in, that's no problem. I've always known how to get freshbot in, get pages in the index in a couple days.

But now we have Google serving up extraordinarily much worse search results (and please, I can't see a person seriously questioning these pitiful serps), because Google is combining old, outdated material with new, unproven material.

It's the worst of both worlds, and the serps plainly show it. Yes many sites still rank well for relevant content, but it is simply lusicrous to assert that the serps are not terrible when a particular, long established page might show at #6 one day and number #104 the next -- while large chunks of the results stay exactly the same.

It doesn't do anybody any good to just complain, and it sure doesn't do any good to bury your head in the sand. Old, poorly rated stuff mixed with new guessed stuff *does* trivialize the value of making valuable content.

Some folks here try to talk about broader implications of Google's data failure, but too often the discussions get sidetracked by people who insist it is all about their site. I happen to be having my best days ever... while Google is inexplicably ranking my own subpages below my much superior (by any measure) index pages, but at the same time it is ranking "fresh" pages I've made at #1. These are flat out terrible search-engining on the part of Google.

Those whose own domains haven't been affected need to get their heads out of their own sites and look around... expired domains, guestbooks, spam linking, "fresh" drivel has risen to the top where it mixes still with 60% adequate results.

Hopefully Google will fix this horrible mess soon, because their results become more irrelevant each day -- as the rated results get older, and more "fresh" guesses get dropped in (and while the new sites flop in and out completely). But we still have precious little evidence of a fix. Instead of continuing to waste resources on Freshbot, why isn't the deepcrawler doing several weeks of a deepcrawl?

Hey Googleplex, a problem is you can't rank anything accurately now, not finding more junk to guess at!

Fix the deepcrawl and get back to work judging and ranking the web on its merits, not its date.

Powdork




msg:206640
 6:59 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)


Google is NOT broken. They just can't seem to fix the blurb on their homepage that says how many pages they have indexed. Its been stuck at
2003 Google - Searching 3,083,324,652 web pages
for 8 months now. They are almost up to 4 billion now. Since they couldn't change it they just decide to drop 25% of their index. Its ok though, its only a billion pages.;)

yankee




msg:206641
 7:00 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Excellent post steveb, it couldn't have been said any better.

mrguy




msg:206642
 7:02 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

-Its ok though, its only a billion pages.-

PowDork, you crack me up:)

If didn't hurt so much I'd laugh harder, quite a few of those billion pages were mine!

IITian




msg:206643
 7:07 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

What if all of us voluntarily decide to reduce number of our pages by 25%? Will it help Google?

percentages




msg:206644
 7:12 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

LMAO....I'm claiming 300,000 of those pages!

steveb, I agree with 95% of your post, but yelling at Google probably won't help, I appreciate it may make you, me and many other feel better at times though;)

We can scream and shout all we like, but I doubt the plex will take it very seriously. A huge drop in searches would make them sit up, but that isn't happening.

So what do we do....well some of us will continue to complain, some of us will rejoice that their spamming techniques finally paid off, and some of us will work on other things while Google is fixing its problems. As for me, I'm playing more golf and going sailing....I'll be back at work when this lot is resolved :)

gstewart




msg:206645
 7:12 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

The Government could issue Ration Cards, just like during the Second World War.

Chris_R




msg:206646
 7:17 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Chris_R,
I would have to strongly disagree with your post. There is a huge amount of spam in the results. Just look at all the sites that are listed highly that Google itself has in the past classified as spam. And didn't GoogleGuy even say that spam filters would be turned on gradually. In other words they aren't on!

I also have old domains that have been 301 permanent re-directed for two months still showing up.

What is my biggest complaint? All of the work that I have done for the last two months is nowhere to be found. This work is entirely based on Google's guidelines. Kinda sucks!

Obviously - I am the minority here - however - I have more sites than 99.9% of webmasters and aren't having these problems. My rank checking shows my sites to be about where they were on average. Some are higher - some are lower.

As far as the results being full of spam. People say that every month - and every month - they are complaining about sites that use guestbook, invisible text, hidden links and a whole bunch of other stuff.

This IS SPAM TO THE WEBMASTER NOT THE USER. When a user types in a request - they get the pages they asked for. Webmasters can be as high and mighty as they want to be, but users don't notice these things.

Some of the results are older. I don't dispute that webmasters haven't gotten some of their pages in. What I DO DISPUTE - is that users have a hard time finding what they are looking for.

Nine out of the top ten gaining queries for week ending june 3rd have over 100,000 results. For breaking news queries - such as sammy sosa and his corked bat - there is the news stories listed up top.

Is google at 100%, no. If they aren't indexing every relevant page they can - then it isn't perfect, but they have plenty to choose from.

95% of webmasters on here are USING THEIR PERSPECTIVE. Sure it sucks someones 50 pages on the wonders of cheese didn't make it into google. Guess what? The world will go on - there are other CHEESE PAGES OUT THERE. This "Oh - google isn't indexing every page - therefore they suck" is BS. People can find what they are looking for.

When users do a search on Google - do they find what they are looking for?

When I do a search on google - I am usually looking for something - same with everyone else. For example, I couldn't remember who wrote "The Heart of Darkness" the other day.

Four of the top ten results told me the answer without even having to visit the sites. Are there sites missing? Probably. Do I care - no. I found the answer in less than two seconds. Have some of these web pages not been updated in two months? I don't know.

Did any of these sites spam guestbooks or use invisible text? I don't know and don't care and neither does ANY user except militant webmaster world webmasters.

Here are ask jeeves top 10 searches for last week:

1. Song lyrics
2. Online dictionary
3. Free ringtones
4. Driving directions
5. Horoscopes
6. Game cheats
7. Recipes
8. Baby names
9. Jobs
10. Atkins Diet

Do you think google doesn't have good pages for these?

As far as the spam filters go - yes I do remember googleguy saying that - and I have no Idea when that was or is going to be done. I can tell you SOME of them are on - as some banned sites are still banned.

Also, google has been talking about new filters as well - so I don't kow how much is old versus new. Also, as I mentioned before - users don't care about spam if it is relevant - and good spammers don't spam irrelevant stuff. Every month people whine about spam. This sin't going to change with any magic filter. It might get rid of some invisible text pages - WOOHOO - things no one without hitting view source could see anyway.

I am sorry that all the work you have done in the last two months hasn't been indexed yet. 301 redirects means google has to go to and index the new site as well. I am sure this is a pain for all webmasters. Freshbot has found stuff and index everything I was working on last week. Before freshbot - google would take three - seven weeks to get stuff in the index. Even with freshbot - if the PR isn't high enough - he doesn't visit.

But be honest - are people that are searching for what you are offering not able to find what they are looking for?

If google is missing 10% of the web they could index - that is a problem for webmasters, but it isn't going to be a problem for users except in very rare cases.

All I am suggesting is the sky isn't falling for users of google - no matter how much webmasters think their pages are important.

anallawalla




msg:206647
 7:25 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Chris_R,

No matter how many ticked off webmasters whine

Can you please stop whining about people who whine? It's becoming your pet peeve. Name-calling doesn't improve the discussion and triggers the wrong responses.

- Ash

percentages




msg:206648
 7:30 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

We have gone OT in this thread.....

>All the work that I've done in the past two months is worthless, right now, and it hurts. I'm just asking for information, so I don't continue to look like a fool.

Seattle_SEM wants to know how he can avoid being made to look like a fool. Seattle_SEM, I'm with you, also being made to look like a fool with new clients and prospects, and I don't know how you or I can avoid the problem.

I don't think we are going to get a get a definitive answer from Google as to when the problems will be resolved. I think site owners, SEOs and others with a vested interest in free SERP's need to look at other elements of success. e.g. Conversion ratios....or spend their time doing something they enjoy, like a round of golf, and wait for the hurricane to pass over.

Chris_R




msg:206649
 7:38 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

You are right - and I will try and tone it down a bit :)

I wasn't trying to call someone a name - even those that complain - just refering to the group of unhappy webmasters that I feel are not looking at things from the users perspective.

It is one thing to be upset at google for not indexing your pages - quite another to suggest that BECAUSE of this - it is effecting the SERPS to the point where they are [awful, sucky,...]

My long posts usually have data in it which I do think contributes to the conversation.

x_m




msg:206650
 7:45 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)



95% of webmasters on here are USING THEIR PERSPECTIVE. Sure it sucks someones 50 pages on the wonders of cheese didn't make it into google. Guess what? The world will go on - there are other CHEESE PAGES OUT THERE. This "Oh - google isn't indexing every page - therefore they suck" is BS. People can find what they are looking for.

Yeah Chris_R's post was a bit emotive, but I tend to agree with him 100%

XM

BigJay




msg:206651
 7:47 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Thanks for the welcome Stefan.

Here's some theory for you all to chew on.

So I'm google, and I'm the biggest SE on the block. my competitors are leveraging themselves against me, for the "new" economy.

So maybe I change some things, to lose some customers, however this is only to get the competitors to think that their strategy is working, when in fact I still have the biggest stick in the neighborhood.

This allows the competition to get a good ego boost on what it thinks is a workable strategy to gain on google, but then when some economic indicator arrives, google cranks up the engine, and in a month is a leap ahead of everyone else, who is too busy patting each other on the back.

So, use this time to prep for a better economy, which will be very much intertested in internet based businesses.

Anyone who bows out now, is a hype believing fool, who isn't going to be in on the boom to come.

So we worry for a quarter or two. Just keep perfecting your sites, the traffic and sales will come!

Chris_R




msg:206652
 7:55 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

So we worry for a quarter or two. Just keep perfecting your sites, the traffic and sales will come!

While I disagree with the rest of your theory - I think this is very true. Be it google or another search engine - hard work will be rewarded - just might take a while.

When it happens - you'll have X more pages than during a normal update. I know this has got to be frusterating for people - especially those starting out - or with little or no existing pages. New pages are only a small part of my total pages - so I don't feel the pain as much.

I used to watch every update in great detail - now I just keep working like they don't exist {Ok I still follow them a little, but nowhere like I used to).

jonjon




msg:206653
 8:09 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Can't wait for the dance. A new site PR0 has been AOL'd 54 times in the last 2 weeks and Bot'd 34.

chiyo




msg:206654
 8:12 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>Seattle_SEM wants to know how he can avoid being made to look like a fool.<<

By not building his house on sand.

By not promising clients things based on optimising for entities (SEs) that he has almost no control over and that both long term history and trends demonstrate will get even less reverse-engineerable.

Google can not be held responsible for a service that they do not charge for or guarantee to SEOs and webmasters, and upon which some SEOs promise far more to their clients that it ever deserves.

Napoleon




msg:206655
 8:21 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

I think you are missing some of the points made here Chris.

Some of the guys above are NOT whinning about the loss of their own pages, they are making valid arguments about the stale nature of much of the core database.

I don't agree with your view that 'the surfer is finding good sites on cheese so what's the problem?'. The problem is that this may be the case for cheese, which is an established topic, but it ain't the case for all topics.

I also think SteveB is right in that a dash of fresh doesn't fill the void. It simply isn't as accurate.

It almost makes me feel that Google has been torn between news and search accuraccy, and has edged far too close to news at the expense of accurace. That's how it looks now, it probably wouldn't though if they introduced a full recent deepcrawl database.

The quality is currently down - that has to be faced. I think even Google know that, although the problem is that they may well have adopted the same philosophy as you, which is dangerous.

percentages




msg:206656
 8:24 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

>By not promising clients things based on optimizing for entities (SEs) that he has almost no control over and that both long term history and trends demonstrate will get even less reverse-engineerable.

chiyo, ya know I love ya....but this is saying SEO is dead...correct me if I misunderstood!

No SEO has ever had control over SE's. They make a living by predicting what will happen, and then making the most of it. But at this point in time with Google it is very difficult to predict what will happen.

There is of course still money to be made with Inktomi, and other SEO related items, but Google traffic is a gamble and we haven't seen that circumstance for a while.

Chris_R




msg:206657
 8:52 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

The quality is currently down - that has to be faced. I think even Google know that, although the problem is that they may well have adopted the same philosophy as you, which is dangerous.

I can certainly understand your point, and there may be some searches where this is the case. I just don't see it from a users perspective. I use google every day and don't recall a single search in recent history where I thought I couldn't find what I was looking for due to google having old data.

I am certainly not the average user, but I look at what people search for and don't see what google is SEERIOUSLY lacking. Everyone one of those top ten listings for ask jeeves can be found in google without a problem.

This isn't forever - I can't imagine - even if google is as broke as everyone thinks - that they won't just go back to the way they were doing things if they can't fix them.

Google keeps track of user feedback and has been doing this since they fit on a couple of desks. I am sure if the data supports what the majority on here seem to believe it will be fixed - or changed back to the way it was.

They aren't stupid.

Some of the guys above are NOT whinning about the loss of their own pages, they are making valid arguments about the stale nature of much of the core database

I keep hearing things such as stale and stuff like that. The people that have lost pages are using this as a reason why the database is stale and not good. Fresh is good, but when is it necessary? Has there been any mention of this problem outside the webmaster community? There are millions of searches done on google every day and if it was as broke as everyone says it is - I think some of it would have filtered into the mainstream.

Are webpages from two months ago really bad? Sure it is nice to be up to date. Things would be better and more accurate, but I don't think 99% of the searches on the internet need this level of sophistication. Even in cases where new stuff is important - like medicine, technology, and economic - the sites they visit are going to have the new stuff.

Google used to do monthly updates and not many complained. This made some data seven weeks old. Now that we have had the fresh system - people have gotten spoiled.

I agree that having news and search results seperate like they are (which is what I think you are saying) is not perfect. However - people still can find stuff on sammy sosa. Most important FRESH stuff is news.

SARS has been around enough to be in the google database. The CDC and WHO have pages in there for april. This isn't perfect, but people still find what they are looking for - and people looking for sars have no idea that this is old info - they still get the new webpages. Last year at this time - that stuff wouldn't have been in there until around may 20 - 30th. It isn't that far off. We didn't think google was horribly stale back then.

Certainly - if things continue to go the way they are - there will be problems. Stuff like SARS, september 11, new products and services will be missed by the masses. New information on medicine, the economy, and houses for sale and all sorts of stuff I haven't thought of.

Google did a fresh run on may30th and june 2nd. I suspect after seeing everything on here they might go a little deeper next time.

chiyo




msg:206658
 8:58 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hi percentages... yep. SEO is dead medium to long term, in the traditaional sense of the word. What will survive is the part of SEO that reflects traditional optimizition technaiues used by document poublishers for time immemorable - descripive and clear titles, copy, navigation, citations, reviews and structure, with some new principles esp. foe the medium re it's external hyperlinking map position.

Traditional SEOs need to diversify into all forms of on-line promotion, including, as bad as it may feel, acting as reseller for PPC, PPI, and even off line promotion.

The days of being able to gain great competitive advantage over exploiting holes in SE algos while they were developing and testing or their algos were static over longer periods of times allowing for reliable reverse-engineering was over 2 years ago.

SEO is not dead, I wont go that far, as many SEO principles are just plain publishing common sense, and we can give enormous advantages to clients by just doing that for them. Such techniques will also work in most mainstream search engines, not just Google, and for the user. Even haveing a few houses built on different foundations means that when one collapses, the others make up for it.

Napoleon




msg:206659
 9:50 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

>> if things continue to go the way they are - there will be problems <<

Well there ARE problems, and every day we carry on like this they get that little bit worse.

I frankly do believe more people than Google imagine have noticed. They will have noticed something is different in a number of search fields: not quite as good as normal, but not been able to put their finger on why. Shrug of shoulders, and carry on, with just a little impact on perception of Google, THIS time.

I think that is the state of play. Next time they search, if the quality is the same, that perception shifts a little bit more.

They are not at the point of SAYING anything or EMAILING Google (that just wouldn't occur to them), but they feel that the returns are just a little disappointing and not as good.

There will also be a series of minorities. For example, the prof the other day who could no longer find his favorite site and went off to another SE. Or the search fileds in whch 404's are too high. And so on.

It's a dangerous cocktail. It's laying the ground for a competitor search engine. Spreading seeds of disappintment, and shaking the blanket of perception. Not the sort of strategy the leading brand should be adopting.

I'm not imagining any of this Chris. It's there. Many people have posted exmples of degenerated searches. In my fields, yes there is noticable staleness, and the main institute web site has gone walkies. Noticable.

People do whinge on WebmasterWorld, far far too much. However, this time I don't think it is just a whinge by people who are not performing. It IS a reflection of a weaker database, and more so, the length of time Google is taking to address things and sort it out.

As I hinted last time, the concern is that Google think only webmasters are noticing and there are no other significant side effects. WRONG.

mfishy




msg:206660
 10:41 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

steveb said <<Instead of continuing to waste resources on Freshbot, why isn't the deepcrawler doing several weeks of a deepcrawl? >>

Amen. I'd hate to think we will still be having this discussion in August. :)

Chris_R,

I respect your points but can only slightly agree. While it is true that the complaints, or as you call them whining, come from webmasters, they can be quite valid anyway. Danny Sullivan wrote a great article about this backdate where he noted that researchers and webmasters are always the first to notice problems in a search engine. It makes sense.

As far as your theory that because the data used for the snapshot of the web is 4 montths old, does not make it bad-it is flawed. At what point do you think that the data would become too old to accurately rank sites? Google ranks sites based on importance derived from linking structure. This is the backbone of their algo. If they did not think it was important why, up until now, did they waste the huge resources on deepcrawling every month to update this?

In the web software space, the results are horribly outdated, where many new products and new info on development has not made it, or is not ranked well, by freshbot. I guarantee the minute new links are factored, we will see all these pages.

Every page or site I work on gets in the index in a few days. Some rank well, others don't. I know it's screwed up because I have pages 1 week old outranking established sites with much better info - due to freshguess.

mfishy




msg:206661
 11:18 am on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

The fundamental point many are missing is that just because a search brings up relevant results, does not make it good. Google is a search engine that RANKS sites. It is the RANKING that is out of wack. Google has always ranked sites by importance. Just because it is relevant does not mean a page should come up 1st page, making it AUTHOROTATIVE.

Google seperated itself not just by returning relevant results, but by coming up with a ranking scheme that works for users. Freshbot is certainly not an adequate replacement for true linking data.

Kareem




msg:206662
 2:00 pm on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Chris_R, your post makes some good points. In my everyday searches, I still feel Google delivers. Most importantly, looking at Google SERPs from an average user's point of view and SEO point of view can be two different things.

Like you, I'm not as affected by recent G anomalies, however, I can certainly feel the pain of the one's who have gone under.

Kackle




msg:206663
 2:06 pm on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

I agree that the ranking of pages that were recently pulled in by freshbot is very poor.

I have an established site, and traffic is stable. But a new page was added on April 28. It has been in and out of the index every few days since then, thanks to freshbot.

I discovered an excellent keyword combination to use on it when it is in the index. This search compares it to an established site with the same keywords. It's someone's blog with the keywords in the blogroll. This gives me 327 hits total.

My freshbot page comes in at about 290 out of these 327, assuming it happens to be in on the particular day I'm searching. The thing is, if Google was using a "guessed" PR the way it used to for a new page, I would have beat out this person's entire archived blogroll handily. I would have a guessed PR of 6 (one PR down from my home page). This guy's blogrolled archive pages show a PR of 4.

So I'm not impressed when someone claims that the freshbot is busy adding pages. It looks like these fresh pages are considered to have a very low PR in the rankings. Yes, freshbot may be doing what Google intended if you're looking for pages on SARs, where there is no competition with old pages.

However, for the average webmaster, who has to compete with other sites, the recent behavior of freshbot, busy as it may be, hasn't been helpful at all.

thunderpaste




msg:206664
 2:28 pm on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

I can verify that at least one non-SEO user is unhappy with the cuurent Google. I have been trying to get my girlfriend to switch from MSN search to Google for a long time. I finally had her using it regularly until Dominic, when she began to complain about the results she was getting.

What did she do about it? She is now back on MSN and wrote to Google to complain. She got a canned response that did not answer her questions or mention anything about what is currently going on. She is not too happy with the canned response and I think I will have a hard time getting her back on G after this even when it is fixed. I do believe it will be fixed also, I just hope it is soon.

I would like to add that I condider her opinion to be pretty independent since we NEVER discuss SEO or my business. She doesn't like to talk about it since she sees it as something that takes time from her:)

I have heard talk about 404 errors and such with Dominic but the big problem for me has been a proliferation of double, meaning indented results and a whole lot of affiliate pages that until now I had only ever seen in the low serps on engines like Jeeves and the old Altavista. I am talking OLD pages.

It made me wonder if any of the veterans around here are having any old pages springing back to life.

europeforvisitors




msg:206665
 3:11 pm on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

The fundamental point many are missing is that just because a search brings up relevant results, does not make it good. Google is a search engine that RANKS sites. It is the RANKING that is out of wack. Google has always ranked sites by importance. Just because it is relevant does not mean a page should come up 1st page, making it AUTHOROTATIVE.

There's no such thing as a perfect ranking system, and Google's rankings are always going to change as the sites move in and out of the index, the algorithm gets tweaked, spam filters are cranked up or turned down, etc. To the user who's searching for "Shelbyville restaurants" or "Mark Twain texts" in Google, what difference does it make if the rankings change because of site turnover, an algorithm shift, or some other factor? My own home page dropped from #1 to #6 this month for one important keyphrase, but does that mean Google screwed up? I might think so, but users might be perfectly happy with the five sites that moved ahead of me. (Similarly, users may be perfectly happy to find my site in the #1 position for another important keyphrase this month. As long as a site delivers high-quality information about the topic they're searching on, users aren't likely to quibble over its ranking in Google's search results.) Chris_R is correct in saying that Webmasters need to look at Google's search results from a user's perspective--not from their own.

As for the suggestion that page 1 search results are "AUTHOROTATIVE" (sic), that's your claim and not Google's. Google doesn't publish "top 10" lists or use labels such as:

Page 1 - Authoritative.

Page 2 - Good.

Page 3 - Fair.

Page 4 - From this point on, everything in the index sucks.

Another important thing to remember: GoogleGuy has made it clear that the Google index is in transition. A month from now (or two months from now, or however long it takes), today's flood of Webmaster whining, wailing, and teeth-gnashing will look foolish in hindsight. (Mind you, a lot of Webmasters may not be happy with the next generation of Google's index, but that's likely to have more to do with their own sins than with Google's.)

[edited by: europeforvisitors at 3:18 pm (utc) on June 7, 2003]

HayMeadows




msg:206666
 3:17 pm on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Even having a few houses built on different foundations means that when one collapses, the others make up for it.

Well said Chiyo.

Perhaps I need to add another form of SEO to one of my foundations - spam. I can't believe I'm thinking of that. I'd say there's plenty wrong with Dominic!

I can just hear GoogleGuy coming on saying, I wouldn't do that HayMeadows. But why not? There are many forms of spam that are working quite well right now in the results. I sure wish I had been signing guestbooks and throwing out a bunch of duplicate content everywhere.

Hopefully this gets fixed soon, but I might be ready with this foundation come September. No, NO, NOOOOOO. I can't do it.

mfishy




msg:206667
 3:27 pm on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

europeforvisitors

That is pretty funny.

"Important, high-quality sites receive a higher PageRank, which Google remembers each time it conducts a search. Of course, important pages mean nothing to you if they don't match your query. So, Google combines PageRank with sophisticated text-matching techniques to find pages that are both important and relevant to your search." Obvviously Google orders results based upon relevance and importance of pages.

On any given search, one can fine many of the same pages somewhere in the SERPS on major search engines. It is the order in which Google returns the results which has made it the strongest.

That is from the Google website. Sorry I used "authoratative" instead of "important". How can they possibly determine which pages are important when they haven't even added up any recent votes? (other than freshguess?)

You are right. Everything is fine at Google. The search results are the best they have ever been. Using 4 month old backlink data is great too. The transition to the new sytem has gone smoother than planned. Users are happier than ever. Let them use 2 year old data, who cares. Praise almighty Google. :)

BTW, my sites are doing just fine. I am lucky enough to get any page up in a few days with Freshbot. What about all the others that haven't even showed up yet? It really sucks for them and for Google USERS who may be interested in what they have to offer.

I am not "whining and whailing" as things haven't even changed much for me financially (actually quite strong). Quite frankly, I find it offensive and bordering on flaming when, everytime someone criticizes Google, you accuse them of whining. Wouldn't be much of a forum if we all thought things were just perfect.

[edited by: mfishy at 3:40 pm (utc) on June 7, 2003]

IITian




msg:206668
 3:27 pm on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Say I am searching for "Metropolitan Museum New York" and the real stuff shows up on the first page, albeit at position #2. Let's say #1 is occupied by a site advertising "See Britney at Metropolitan Museum New York."

Am I able to find what I was looking for. Yes. (The one at #2 not #1) Will I wonder about the SE result. Yes.

It is not just roughly finding what one is looking for, but also the perception of quality of search. While searching for "discount air fare" I will start wondering if this particulat SE has put undeserving reults on top and hiding the real good ones.

europeforvisitors




msg:206669
 4:31 pm on Jun 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Quite frankly, I find it offensive and bordering on flaming when, everytime someone criticizes Google, you accuse them of whining. Wouldn't be much of a forum if we all thought things were just perfect.

Actually, I use the word "whining" only rarely (and only when it's deserved.) On Webmaster World, the word is most commonly used by those who defend spam and want to stifle any discussion of that potentially embarrassing topic.

Nor have I ever suggested that Google is perfect. How could it be perfect when I dropped from #1 to #6 for an important keyphrase? :-)

I do think it's foolish for Webmasters and SEOs to play Chicken Little ("The sky is falling, the sky is falling!") when:

1) Most users don't have trouble finding what they want, and...

2) Webmaster World members have been warned repeatedly by GoogleGuy that Google's index is going to be in flux for a while.

It's possible that Webmasters and SEOs, especially those of the shadier variety, will have reason to panic over Google's SERPs in the future.

It's even possible, though far less likely, that users will have reason to complain about Google after the current transition is complete.

But it's a bit premature to put on widow's weeds and wail about the death of the Google gravy train or the long-term quality of Google's search results.

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