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How Google works
Please prove me wrong
ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 1:48 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

I may be way off base here but I have yet to have anybody prove me wrong. I have had people try but they seem to completely miss the point I am making. So I will put it in a very detailed way.

To be number 1 you need to have a higher PR than the others. This only works if you have your keyword first in your title and at least once in your description. I am sure it is a little more complicated than this but it is something that can be measured. How many people link to you with keyword anchor text or if you have keywords in URL just can not be measured because it has so little weight. The only time that come in to play in my opinion is if sites come to a tied with PR, Title, and description.

Example SERP
Site1: Keyword in description but is a Google directory listing and is a .org site
Site2: Has keyword in Title first word and keyword in description twice
Site3: Same as site2 but has keyword in description twice
Site4: Has keyword after 4 other words in title but has keyword twice in description.
Site5: PR7 site only has keyword in description once.

Other example:
If you type in a 2 word phrase a high PR site with just one keyword of the phrase as the first word in title will beat out sites lower PR sites that have the exact phrase in their title but after several other words.

Please sticky me with examples if you think I have just lost it. I am doing this just to figure things out. It also assumes that things donít completely change which they may.

 

vitaplease

WebmasterWorld Senior Member vitaplease us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 2:52 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>To be number 1 you need to have a higher PR than the others

[webmasterworld.com...]

Do a search for "solutions"

You will see variations in Pagerank and rankings and "solutions" being in title.

Compare normal searches with allinachor: searches and you will see the power of motivated links.

ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 3:14 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

No it does not prove anything everybody there has huge PR ratings. Some have PR0 and graybar. Also a one word search will give weird results anyhow. It is almost impossible to get to the top of one word searches unless it is real obscure. The first pages are almost always PR7's or higher. What I want to see is a site with a lower PR beating a site with a higher PR and the lower PR site and the higher PR site have the keyword in the same place in the title. Can't you people get this. Every time I bring this up nobody understands my point. Read the entire post. I am not saying that it is just a PR thing. Please read the whloe thing.

[edited by: ogletree at 3:22 pm (utc) on May 30, 2003]

John_Caius

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 3:21 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

Keyword anchor text is far more important than PR IMHO. I use keyword anchor text in my own sites to *great* effect - with just one instance of good anchor text I can get the target page to come very high up in the search terms for 3 word keyphrases.

ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 3:24 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

Prove it. You can say that until you are blue in the face but give me any search term and I will tell you exactly why they are in the order they are. I promise anchor text has nothing to do with it.

chiyo

WebmasterWorld Senior Member chiyo us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 3:26 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

ogletree, i agree with you that things will change... and soon.. but at present Im not seeing that PR is that important. I have a few SERPS i know where a certain keyword is in the title, but a lower PR page is ranking higher than a higher PR page. I see it quite a lot. Many people say that it is the opposite to what you say - that PR only kicks in when everything else is more or less the same for 2 or more listings.

I look ar basically "info" queries, not "money" queries, so what you are seeing may just be specific to the type of queries you are testing?

Morgan

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 3:34 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

Nobody can prove anything, we can't discuss specifics. But if you're so certain anchor text has nothing to do with it then I guess you've got Google cracked.

As for me, I am #1 for a 4 word phrase, the first 4 words in the title in both mine and the #2 spot are the same, and #2's PageRank is higher than mine by 3.

My incoming link text is the exact 4 word phrase, his is just the name of his company, that's the only difference.

I'd be nowhere without anchor text on most of my sites, I've seen several examples of it overcoming PageRank difeerences.

DynamicStatics

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 3:34 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

OlgeTree:
Proove you wrong - How many times would you like me to do that? Lower PR sites beating out High PR sites...lol Spend some more time researching...why dont you fisrt start looking for some of those vacation homes in that little town of Orlando for starters ;-) ....and if it took me only thinking for 5 seconds to proove you wrong think about if I would have spent some time on this, you have to step outside the box....peace

DS

ciml

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ciml us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 3:38 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

Things do change ogletree, but I don't think that's the problem here.

Consider the sizes of wardrobes. One person might say that height is important, and then width if the height is the same. Another might say that width is important, then height if the widths are the same. Neither person is wrong as such, but if they continue to argue over which is more important then we can assume they don't quite realise how size is calculated.

For width, height and size, read PR, on page factors and rank.

Anyway, a third person might turn up and say that the depth of the wardrobe is important. The first and second people both scoff but then he points out that there are some wardrobes that are so deep that they are very big, even though they're not very high or wide. For depth, read anchor text from other domains.

The way that search engines calculate rankings is not like sorting three spreadsheet colums by column 1, then column 2 and lastly column 3. The relationships are more complex.

GoogleGuy says that we should just try to make good sites; if they're good enough then people will appreciate them and Google will like them too. A lot of successful webmasters think this way, but this forum fortunately contains plenty of people who like to try to work out the minutiae whether we really need to or not.

> What I want to see is a site with a lower PR beating a site with a higher PR and the lower PR site and the higher PR site have the keyword in the same place in the title.

If you check the 88th listing you'll see it's "Google Search Solutions", a very high PR page with solutions in the title, the body text and in the link text of some very high PR pages. So your question can be answered by looking at most of the 87 above it. (It's a good example as we've discussed it long before Dominic and the old Toolbar values)

ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 3:48 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

This argument is only valid for the first 10 or so results. Any more than that and it gets a little more complicated. If the first 5 results are relavant than it don't matter where you are in the SERPS most people are not going to go that deep if they find what they want in the first 5 results. Every person that has tried to prove me wrong has failed. Don't send me some weird search that google has the the whold first page. This is a very simple argument.

Please sticky me an exapmle if you think I am wrong don't just point and laugh at how stupid I am. I want somebody to prove me wrong.

John_Caius

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 3:51 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

Search on Google for googlebombing - a game entirely built around anchor text of incoming links.

mrguy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 3:56 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

Sorry,

If anchor text is not important, then how do explain sites that rank number one for a phrase without even having that phrase anywhere on the page.

The only place they have it is in the anchor text from incoming links.

I've seen time and time again low PR sites beating higher PR sites because of this.

When all things are equal, then the higher PR site will beat the lower PR site, but rarely are all things equal between two sites.

If it so easy, what are you complaining about. You should be number one for all your spots;)

ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 3:59 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

googlebombing follows my rules.

Site1: PR6
Site2: PR2 keyword in Title
Site3: PR4 no keyword in Title keyword is in description
Site4: PR3 keyword second word in Title
Site5: PR0 keyword fourth word in Title
Site6: PR3 keyword fourth word in Title

Site5 may actually have a higher PR or Google is being weird. Right now may be a bad time for this discoussion with things changing daily.

ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 4:03 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

I can't explain them becasue I have never seen them. I did just see a site that is number one on a search with no keywords in title or description but it had a higher PR. I do see anchor text as being important now thank you. I am just trying to figure Google out from observation. We should be doing everyting we can to get up there. I am not saying to stop anything. Just work harder on stuff we can see have visable results.

John_Caius

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 4:09 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

Sorry, what I meant was to look up googlebombing and find out about it, not use it as an example of a keyword.

ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 4:19 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

From reading that I suppoes there is a way to bomb google and get to the top. I doubt if most people are competing with that. Getting number one is not alwas the goal. My only Goal is to be the first relavant result. If I am number 5 and the first 4 are junk and have nothing to do with the keywords I win. I don't realy care about off topic sites above me. That is Googles problem not mine. I am just trying to show how to get where you want to be on Google. Unfortunatly right now nobody knows what is going to happen. My only links in Google right now are links from March that don't even exist. Actually I am number 1 for several search terms for pages that don't even exist. I made sure all those old links are 301 redirects to their new URL structure. I am waiting for the next craw/update to see all my SEO improvements.

vitaplease

WebmasterWorld Senior Member vitaplease us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 4:25 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

ogletree,

go to Alltheweb where you can play and combine with the advanced search options such as "must not contain in title" and "must contain in the link to url". Much of the same goes on at Google.

Do a Google allinanchor: search for things that are often in anchortexts such as "buy".

dwilson

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 4:39 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

Ogletree, you've still missed the point on googlebombing.

It's a trick to get somebody ELSE to the top for an undesirable phrase.

The classic one I heard about was when the top place for "go to <expletive deleted>" was Microsoft.com. I'm quite certain MS didn't have that phrase on their site!

Such things work simply b/c of anchor text -- has to be b/c the phrase isn't on the page. Did MS have a high PR? Sure. But if it weren't for all the "go to ____" links, Microsoft.com would never have been relavent for that search.

steve128



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 5:13 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

Rule of thumb:
Site a) targets a keyword phrase, with a PR7

Site b) targets the exact same keyword with a PR 2/3/4

Site a) will win...almost always (accepting the present google update fiasco)

Just because you see a site/page positioned well for a search query does not mean the webmaster is targeting the said keyword, many a time a page is top of the pops through good fortune, this is especially true for high PR sites.

(although they will never admit it)

Single keywords are a lottery, unless niche, single keyword targets should hardly ever be targeted.

A complete waste of your available resources.

ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 5:19 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

sorry I read the artilcle a little to fast. I get it now. Anchor text and high PR stil have a link. So if you have the keyword early in your title and at least once in your description and have anchor text pointing at you the SERPS will smile upon you. Of course the question is how many anchor texts do you need and does it matter if they are all low PR.

steve128



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 5:25 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

You can spam the title tag until your hearts content...it will not beat a high PR site...you can get 10000 guest book anchor links it will not beat a high PR site...normally -;

ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 5:26 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

I don't think anybody said that spamming a title would get you anwhere without PR. As a matter of fact my point was you had to have a high PR and a title to win. Also their are people spamming guest books and winning. I have seen it. Google just has not put that filter in yet.

twilight47

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 5:28 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

With Google in the current state of flux that it is in, is their a point to coming up with new SEO strategies based on an incomplete proccess? Other than continual good clean optimizing, who knows what pagerank value or anchor text value will be in the new system, or what spam filtering will include or exclude in the near future?

steve128



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 5:29 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

The classic one I heard about was when the top place for "go to <expletive deleted>" was Microsoft.com. I'm quite certain MS didn't have that phrase on their site!
.......

LOL, M$ could quite easily get the number one spot themselves, without googlebombing.

I suspect they were not targeting the said phrase -;

BigDave

WebmasterWorld Senior Member bigdave us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 5:31 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

ogletree,

I can prove you are wrong. But it's not on the points you think you are making.

What you are suggesting is based on the thinking of trying to be #1 in a specific result. Google does NOT work that way.

Google orders all the sites for a result, not just the site to end up at #1. Google comes up with a numeric value for all the pages *as they relate* to a keyphrase and orders according to that value.

What you are suggesting is a series of if...then...else if statements, and that just does not work in this case.

You have picked out some of the most important factors, but you are incorrect in the way that they are applied.

Oh yeah, you obviously have not lookd around the results much if you think the keywords have to be at least once in your description to be #1. Most web pages, including those at #1 do not have the meta description element.

steve128



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 5:39 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

"To be number 1 you need to have a higher PR than the others. This only works if you have your keyword first in your title and at least once in your description."

..Nope many pages are number one, with no mention of a keyword in the title or description.

You are making the common mistake, where because a page ranks well they must be targeting the keyword, not true.

As the google bomb M$ points out

ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 5:41 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

I was not talking about the meta description. Actually I have never seen Google use it. Most of them are snippets from the page or the DMOZ description. When I say description I mean the description that Google chooses for you. The most populer technique is to have wha tyou want your description on the top of the page before anything else. I just started doing that. As long as it is not hidden you should be ok.

After some thought I agree that this conversation is kind of silly right now because we have no idea what Google is doing at the moment. The rules I have mentioned do seem to be in effect right now but that may change.

I don't think anybody is saying that if you do what I say you won't get higher up. These rules are true most of the time. There are always exceptions. Right now I don't think that current PR is factored into the SERPS. I think the SERPS are using older PR. There are just too many PR0 sites ranking high right now. I have seen a lot of big companies get PR0 lately.

steve128



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 5:52 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

BigDave
I meant to say that, nice clear answer.

ogletree "I have seen a lot of big companies get PR0 lately"

I give up

Marval

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 6:08 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

Id say that a low PR site can beat a high PR site as long as on page factors and target text is the same and the low PR site has the keyword phrase in a keyword1-keyword2 domain name. Real shame

jbauder

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 13749 posted 6:35 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

ogletree

#1 - PR3
#2 - PR5
#3 - PR5
#4 - PR0
#5 - PR5
#6 - PR4

I'm hoping the number 4 spot is just a quirk with hurrican dominic ... prior to the update it was running a PR3

All have keyword in title and description, but #1 does not start with keyword in title 2-6 start with keyword

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