| 6:27 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
After seeing comments from several people over the months that I've been here, wondering what google is doing between the main crawl and the start of the dance. I think that this should at least show that organizing and moving terabytes of data around the world takes a little time.
GoogleGuy, as a searcher, I have not noticed much of a quality difference one way or the other with Dominic. As always there ared some bad sites mixed in with the good sites, but I still find the good sites quickly. With the old data still in There I am getting a few more 404s. Those 404s have always happened, they are just a little more common.
As a webmaster I'm not complaining. Each datacenter you add dominic to gets me more traffic. And since my site is by far the most relevant site on the entire web, there is no question that dominic was a major improvement. ;)
Actually, the B and C (I forget names real easily) were not as good for me as I thought that they should be. They were the first updates where my traffic flattened out. I didn't complain. Different algos will score different, and those just weren't good months for me. I was still happy with the results as a searcher, and I try to grade google from that perspective.
As for the "schedule" that was the original point of this thread, please stick with the "it will ship when it's ready" attitude. I prefer a good update to a quick update. Take your time to make sure that you get it right.
| 6:35 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Im new to the forum this month, but hear you loud and clear and appreciate the feedback. I'll save my comments on results til you give us an indication that the bus ride is over.
One question, though. You mentioned that the spammer sites showing up are short lived, so why the need for spam reports? Is this to just cross check the effectivness of the filters?
| 6:50 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
|Bringing in backlinks and other data will be a gradual process over time. It won't be an overnight thing once all the data centers have the sj-type index. Once that index is everywhere, I'm looking forward to us bringing in fresher data--but I want to set expectations that it will take some time. |
Is this routine going to become the more standard update practice? Would you tell if you knew? ;)
I recall 2 months ago you stated that Google wanted to get back to a more traditional update schedule. Forgot exact wording you used.
"Dominic- The Never Ending Update"
Be truthful- Homer Simpson got into your control both and pushed every button in the place, right? :)
| 6:58 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
|One of my sites, which was 3 or 4 (out of over a million results) on the main search phrase dropped down to 18 on the new fi index. Of course it is totally unfair and Google *must* be doing something wrong. |
On the other hand, that all important search term only accounted for 4% of our traffic, and there were about 600 other search terms that were reaching us each day, so maybe it's not time to jump off of the bridge yet.
Perhaps, when all the pieces of the pie become a whole pie and it's done cooking you will be #3 or #4 once again.
We are looking at all the pieces coming together...no jumping off a bridge is required. ;)
| 7:07 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
|I would say more than days, less than months. That's just my personal take. |
Hmm. That leaves us with weeks. Maybe. The Google cookbook is very open.
Pay attention not to what GG states, but what he doesn't state but hints at.
Yoda of Google you are, GoogleGuy. :)
| 7:12 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Is anyone else seeing PR in the toolbar jumping around? One of my sites is showing a white bar, but I'm seeing it listed higher in many of the datacenters, including sj, cw, and fi.
I'm confused as to why I'd move up, while the toolbar is indicating a drop in pagerank.
| 7:48 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Ignore the toolbar for now. Until the links are brought back in it doesn't matter anyway.
| 7:49 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I hope you're right and that it is just some weird glitch.
| 7:51 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Kirby, I'm not worried about spammers that have been handled before and appear to be back. Most of those will be gone again. But I do want to hear spam reports like "this type of search seems to work better or worse with the new system."
worker, if I were playing Yoda like Alphawolf suggests, I'd say: worry less about PR on the toolbar and more about rankings. And less about rankings for high-profile phrases and more about overall rankings. And less about rankings and more about traffic. And less about traffic and more about conversions. Maybe that doesn't sound much like Yoda though. I think the shorter answer would be that if you're showing well at datacenters like sj/cw/fi, I wouldn't worry much about what the PR says.
I just wanted to say thanks to the other posters who are taking a step back and looking at the overall picture. Please help to remind people that the longer-term view will keep folks less stressed and more productive. :)
| 7:58 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Googleguy, what about "us" that have new sites "a month or two old" that were kicked out of google"main ondex" altogether? Will we be back"in time" or are we screwd? If we will be back are we talking this update or updates to come"maybe 2 or 3 or 4.......". I personal put alot of my hard earn money into my sites that just "vanished" and the main reason I built my sites the way I did was for google, as that just tough sh#$ for me? I am not in this boat alone, thousands are in the same boat and it flatout sucks.
| 8:08 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Once all the data centers have the -sj so "gradual adding of links" For example: If I have 100 new backlinks in Aprils crawl. Could I have 17 of them added tomorrow? and then 40 more added next thursday then 10 more the next day and the next? Is this what we can look forward to GG?
| 8:23 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I would also like to know, if you can say, why the delay for the fresh data? Why can it be added earlier? This is probably proprietary knowledge, but it can't hurt to ask. :)
Also I sent in a spam report on a site that has hidden links that goes towards inflating their backlinks and pagerank. They come up the same under all searches in all datacenter. Has the spam report been seen or how long does review take?
Thanks for providing any info you can.
| 8:30 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
So are we beginning to see the end of the once per month massive update and the move towards and much more fluid database continually being updated?
| 8:37 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
This probably won't make you feel any better, but it might help you put it into perspective.
Before freshbot came along, it was perfectly normal to have to wait two months just to see your home page listed and then it might take a couple more till your entire site was in. Freshbot not only gets the fresh pages listed faster, it also seems to make the listing of sites in the main index faster.
You are no worse off than before freshbot came along. In fact you are better off in that at least some of your pages can show up even while you are not in the main index.
It's a bummer that you seem to feel that you are being screwed out of your money, but it isn't a very good way to make your arguement to someone else. The amount of money in your wallet makes no difference to me. You would make a much more convincing arguement if you were to point out how the searchers or google would benefit from getting your site listed.In fact once you bring money into it you make it sound like you think you deserve to be listed *because* you spent the money.
| 8:46 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
GoogleGuy, (sorry - it is long...)
First, allow me to express my utter admiration to the endless time you seem to be spending on this Forum and to your ability to read and comment to the extent that you do. Most people can’t even cope with READING the whole thing, let alone making useful contributions to it.
Having said that, I was deeply disturbed by your last lengthy post. Please consider the following points...
Let’s start with the simple question: It’s clear that many people around this place are very stressed. Why? What causes this stress?
You suggest the following explanation:
|I would say that stepping back a level of detail would give better insight and less stress. Suppose you're on a long bus trip. If you scrutinize the road for every bump, pebble, or sharp turn, you're going to be more stressed than you need to be. |
That comparison is misleading. You see, when someone takes a bus, in MOST cases, they know the destination, they know the bus and they know the road. They don’t NEED to pay attention to the details – as they don’t matter. Now, let me ask you: If you were to take a bus trip with a vehicle you have never seen before, to a destination you have never been to, on a road that can be mined and full of holes, deep pits and loose boundaries with high cliffs and you would hardly be able to see anything through fog and darkness – would you be relaxed? Would you not try and strain your eyes to see through the semi-darkness for any sign of danger? I certainly would – even if I had no control over the bus driver. And in this case, the driver is a well respected veteran!
Why, then, ARE people stressed? Why DO they pay attention to every minute detail?
Quite simply, because their livelihood depends on Google. With the undisputed dominance of Google in the Search Engines area, a drop of 20 places in the SERP of some critical keywords can have a MAJOR effect on the survival and/or prosperity of a site. People have invested countless time, effort and money to develop an online business, and they see the possibility of it being badly affected. Sure they are alarmed!
You then cite the discussions way back in September, and how no one is talking about the change anymore. You then conclude
|We still use the scoring improvements from last September, but you don't hear people worrying about it now. |
Well, that doesn’t prove anything, other than the fact that people are highly adaptable creatures. What’s the point of talking NOW about the change that took place THEN? And what can be meaningfully said about it anyway? Does anyone have ANY yardstick to compare the SERP now with what it COULD have been with the old scoring algorithm? No wonder no one does. I guess that those that have benefited from it are/were happy, and those wounded have licked their wounds and worked harder to improve their lot. If it is any consolation, I can assure you that no one will mention this update 6 months from now :)
Finally, you say:
|the fact that I've said 5-6 (9-10?) times that we'll be bringing in better filters and fresher data, and most people should feel better, I hope. |
Why do you think that they ‘should feel better’? What exactly are you promising here? I understand ‘fresher data’ – but until we get to see the results of the ‘better filters’ we can’t really tell. And what if while vigorously fighting spam you have also managed to throw out the baby together with the bath water?
Now - a suggestion. I cannot stress enough my conviction that Google should strive and improve their search results to the best of the company’s ability. This is what you do best – and this is what brought you to the position you have. However, showing the world a half-baked product is something you should consider very carefully. I am sure you must have gained something from the exposure – but you have also lost. Personally, I don’t care much either way – que cera – cera. For many people, so it seems, this causes a lot of distress. You should consider keeping fundamental changes under wrap until they are ready – and roll them out in one go as before. There will be gasps of amazements and disappointments, but they will quickly subside and life will go on.
And very finally. This is NOT a personal attack. My aim is to just emphasize that being the best and the most widely used search engine brings with it responsibilities too. It just comes with the territory :)
| 8:48 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Thanks for your comments "BigDave" but, my question was for googleguy, not you! By the way, it is not just my site that is gone, alot of sites are out and there still is no answer for it. One more thing, I would say that"most" of us here have sites that make money and it is not to much to ask questions regarding them.
P.S. we can't say that google index's websites in the same way it did a year ago (sites going in after 2 months then dissupering a week later only to come back in the next update).
[edited by: teeceo at 8:52 pm (utc) on May 17, 2003]
| 8:51 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
|Thanks for your comments "BigDave" but, my question was for googleguy, not you! |
Well I suggest you use personal e-mail then instead of posting in a public forum. It is the nature of the medium, and within the TOS for anyone to respond to your query.
| 9:00 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Googleguy has his sticky mail off :)
| 9:02 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Might be a good time for us to revisit the charter [webmasterworld.com] of the Google forum.
|No site review requests or direct requests for Google techs. |
| 9:09 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I AM NOT TRING TO GET MY SITE REVIEWED! my question is why have "so many" new sites droped out of the index when google first started this dance, thats it. But you know what, forget it. I'll just walk around in the dark and "hope" everything turns out o.k. One last thing(not that any of you care but, 75% of my income(comes) for google so if I ask some question regarding my living,I don't think thats so far out of line.
| 9:15 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
>Bringing in backlinks and other data will be a gradual process over time.
And, precisely what is this other data that will be brought in over time? I notice that my main site still has a steak through its heart and buried on the most important SERP because the allinanchor: command shows that all the anchor text is MIA still. Curiously enough I see this site got its PR6 for the home page back (which is all kinds of good for the topic in question), after dropping to PR5 last update. I'd rather have the anchor text back and last months #4 position for the key SERP rather than a more impressive looking extra green in the toolbar. How come all the other sites got their anchor text credited but mine? Perhaps I should have more faith in Google, but at the moment it appears that Google just doesn't like this poor little site and wants to kill it off. :(
| 9:16 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
|Googleguy has his sticky mail off |
Yeah he does, and we don't know his e-mail address. And as pmac said, specific requests of him are against the charter. GoogleGuy is free to to be anonymous. He is free to ignore or answer questions. There is a reason that his sticky mail is turned off and he doesn't give out his e-mail address.
And worse than the requests, are the demands for answers that are always being thrown at him.
He is an active, informed and incredibly helpful member of this community that just happens to work for google.
GoogleGuy is not responsible for whether or not there is food on the table of other members here, or the placement of any of the websites within the index. I am responsible for all my websites and the pages on those sites. I am responsible to make sure that there is food on my table.
| 9:17 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Requests for help directed to GoogleGuy [webmasterworld.com]
|Let's remember that while GoogleGuy is being very gracious in taking time to answer questions and clear some things up for us, which is greatly appreciated, as he's stated, it's on his own free time. Besides, there's an awful lot that can be answered by other people here. |
So let's give GoogleGuy a break and not ask directly; we're sure he helps us out as much as he has time for, considering he works full time also.
| 9:58 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
teeceo, when bringing up a new system, you want to work from a known base of data. I fully expect that after that, we'll be working to bring in newer sites. And your anchortext, rfgdxm1. ;) FWIW, BigDave has (in my experience reading his posts--I don't know who he is) a deep understanding of Google's workings and perspective. I would give his comments as much consideration as you would mine.
mrdch, I understand why webmasters may be anxious--mainly my post was meant to bring out a few points that people may have missed. WebmasterWorld is great for the micro-level view ("I dropped from #4 to #16, but only in cw!"), but not always for the larger landscape.
| 10:01 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Best to remain calm. I see a lovely juicy 0 pagerank on my index.php page - but as GG has said - don't worry about it until the thing has settled properly on the main WWW and all the backlinks, wotnots and thingymejigs are plopped in.
| 10:08 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
We don need no steenking backleenks.
| 10:09 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
|Why, then, ARE people stressed? Why DO they pay attention to every minute detail? |
Quite simply, because their livelihood depends on Google.
I had the same view a while ago. It's a bad view to have.
You _cannot_ put all your eggs into one basket as people are seeing with this update. Google will always change...always tweak and test.
You may be riding high for 3 or 6 months then an algo change may cause your site to go to Page 2 instead of being in the Top 3.
My view now is as follows:
If one can get thier site into some juicy rankings on Google take the 'free' profits and invest in other marketing ideas.
Take Brett's report [webmasterworld.com] and make use of it.
He took time to put that together for a reason.
It's understandable for folks who have good rankings see them go to junk get upset.
You never know what a good thing you have until you lose it.
Diversify your market exposure or you will forever be at the mercy of Google's whims.
Never become complacent with your rankings in Google. One day, you will become disappointed, distraught, and be at a loss if you depend on the free "natural" rankings.
Adapt and embrace the myriad of opportunities the WWW offers.
Otherwise, you may start to feel like throwing yourself off a bridge and so forth.
If this update turns out HORRIBLE for you it is a blessing, not a curse.
There's not a damn thing you can do to *quickly* react to a google algo change. NOTHING
You can have AdWords, Overture and affiliate advertising up and running rather quickly.
It's a waste of time to complain here.
Go think of new ways to expose your website(s)!
Focus on what you can do, not what you can't do.
The world is not a shiny happy place and nothing is fair.
Become a pessimist realist like me and presume the worst. Be thrilled if someone gives you something for nothing. Plan for disasters because sh*t happens.
| 10:30 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
>And your anchortext, rfgdxm1.
So you mean that I shouldn't give up all hope yet? ;) For some bizarre reason, for like 10 minutes early last night my site hit #1(?!) for that SERP on -dc, before plummeting back to oblivion. Might be that Google is trying to drive some webmasters insane. And, in my case I think Google is succeeding.
| 10:36 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Nice post there bro....
Completely agree that complaining does nothing here and has given me a good insight into gaining exposure in other se's and areas....
Here's looking forward to when all who have fallen are back up top......not just in Google.....
| 10:42 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
rfgdxm1, I really promise that there isn't someone flipping a switch that says "rfgdxm1's key anchortext." ;)
| 10:46 pm on May 17, 2003 (gmt 0)|
No...he's flipping a switch that says "rfgdxm1's cerebellum and brainstem" :)
(watch that twitch thar)