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Reality Check...
Staza




msg:50314
 3:40 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)


Hey everyone - Im new to this forum but I've been reading it for awhile. Given this most recent ongoing update spectacle, I felt compelled to finally speak my mind on something. I have some thoughts as to what Google might be up to with this last update.

I must say that whenever I read this forum, there is always something in the back of my mind that just doesnt add up when i see Googleguy interacting with everyone here.

Allow me to give you my 2 cents for what its worth...

A wise man once told me to always follow the money trail when looking at intentions. Google is a company that is making HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. Their main source of revenue is Google Adwords.

As an organic SEO consultant for years, I've seen clear and conclusive evidence as of late that Google does NOT look kindly on the SEO industry as a whole. Think about it... when SEO's succeed, GOOGLE LOSES MONEY. If we can help our clients to rank better in the MAIN search results (where 95% of the traffic is), than the client will have less need to PAY Google thru Adwords!

We've all seen the recent "Beware of SEOs" post that Google put on their website... and if any of you are SEOs, you've surely had clients call their Google Adword Reps and ask them if its ok to use you. Whenever my prospects ask, they dont get anything positive in response thats for sure.

If you were a Google executive looking long term at revenue growth potential... and you saw the "organic" SEO industry experiencing explosive growth like it is... what would you think?

95% of people skip over the Google Adwords and click on the main search results. That HAS to mean something Google. There is actuallly a hidden incentive now to make the results LESS relevant so that more people click on the adwords. (Im not saying they have gone this far yet, but its interesting to think about.)

So here's a possible theory:

1 - Google saw the light and realized that their single biggest future threat and competition are Organic SEO companies. They also do not want the average Webmaster to be able to rank high on their own so that they will have to use Adwords.

They have an incentive to throw us all off by doing things that make no sense. They do it just enough to where the results are still decent enough, but it hurts the ability of an SEO company to have any level of security and stability... even the ones using perfectly legitimately means.

2 - Is anyone here open to the possibility that GoogleGuy may not be the hero that everyone here treats him as (no offense - just speaking my mind - hope i dont get censored).

Think about it, I never see Google Guy telling us anything that REALLY help us know whats going on... its always weird cryptic messages that dont mean anything.

C'mon folks... do you REALLY believe that GoogleGuy is just some Google employee sitting at a desk who thinks its cool to interact with the largest known group of professional SEOs on the plant (WebmasterWorld)? Dont you think he is being closely monitored by the uppers at Google, and everything he says is being carefully watched?

I cant help but think that Googleguy is getting information from us rather than the other way around...

There's one other saying a wise man once said that I believe GoogleGuy might be following:

"Keep your friends close... and your enemies closer."

Again - im sure that Googleguy is a nice fella... just throwing out some possible theories here.

 

Oaf357




msg:50315
 4:00 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

GoogleGuy and WebmasterWorld is a symbiotic relationship.

msr986




msg:50316
 4:02 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

> "Keep your friends close... and your enemies closer."

That's why we let GoogleGuy in here! ;)

Chris_R




msg:50317
 4:05 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

We are no threat to google.

Google is in this to make money, but they don't have to put SEOs out of business to do so.

There are all kinds of conspiracy theories - to wit:

Google gives better rankings to people that buy adwords

OR

Google harms you in an attempt to get you to buy adwords

Both are silly. There can only be one person at the top - or ten on the first page. Anyway google does it - there are those that need their services for adwords. There are plenty of people in the #1 spot that still pay adwords for the same term.

Google has better things to do with their time than play cloak [npi] and dagger with webmasters. There is plenty of money for everyone...

bcc1234




msg:50318
 4:22 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

There is one problem people fail to undestand.
Whe you have a company of 3 people, you can have any consipracy you want. When there are more than 50 involved - someone will talk and the info will leak. So unless they drug their employees at the office building exit, I don't see how it's possible to have a conspiracy like that without the world knowing about it.

whatson




msg:50319
 4:28 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

If Google was displaying results that were not as relevant in an attempt to increase Adword click throughs then eventually their traffic would decline, as people use Google because the results are relevant.
I believe Google wants to keep it this way.

SEOs optimize sites for relevant keyterms to a particular site. Which in a way is assisting Google provide relevant results.

I also believe that Webmaster World would not be what it is today if hadnt been for Googleguy.

[edited by: whatson at 4:29 am (utc) on May 11, 2003]

Jesse_Smith




msg:50320
 4:28 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

:::I never see Google Guy telling us anything that REALLY help us know whats going on

What do you call this?

*****

We've tested SJ along a full spectrum of tests. But if people think that there are bad searches, drop us a spam report to tell us the search and how it got worse.

The SJ index isn't an older index. You can verify that by doing a topical query such as SARS. The results are more fresh in SJ than they are in our regular index.

I wouldn't be surprised to see SJ show up at other data centers first, and then to start applying the newer data/filters after that.

I think once the index is available, bringing in newer data is the next logical step.

SJ is not an old index. The pages from SJ are fresher overall.

Critter, it wouldn't surprise me to see SJ results start to show up at other data centers soon.

Ugh. It's too early to start all this again.

Given that the crawl didn't start in earnest until about a week ago, I don't think you have to worry about this yet.

I think y'all are worrying far too early. You've got to remember that the update earlier this month was just a little while ago. I wouldn't start worrying about an update yet.

Oy. If I say it will be a long while, will that head off the threads and meta-threads about the update?

I still think y'all should take a few days off.

Oy. Y'all should take a few days off. It will happen when it will happen.

If it were me, I would take a few days off.

*****

Sure looks like he explains what is going on. You just need to learn how to look.

PatrickDeese




msg:50321
 4:31 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

We've all seen the recent "Beware of SEOs" post that Google put on their website... and if any of you are SEOs, you've surely had clients call their Google Adword Reps and ask them if its ok to use you. Whenever my prospects ask, they dont get anything positive in response thats for sure.

Um... I link to the google "about seos" page on my SEO services page. Nonetheless I manage to get several clients a week.

I am not a big time SEO trying to beat Amazon for "books" or anything.

But I have helped quite a few "little guys". The truth is that there are a lot of websites out there that are designed so poorly that they couldn't get first position in google for "polka dot mayonnaise packed in handblown glass jars by Mexican craftsmen".

I have learned (and confirmed) a lot from this forum and GoogleGuy's responses. I have been doing positioning for the past 6+ years.

I think it is a great thing that I can submit a spam report to google with my webmasterworld nick, and post "hey GG - sent you a spam report" here and then a little later have him reply here with something like "Yeah, great got it, thank you."

I came across an obvious bug in the way the googlebot interpreted webpages just 2 weeks ago. I could have very easily exploited it and (maybe) even eventually beat out Amazon for "books" had I been the "other kind" of SEO.

But guess what, I sent a spam report with my nick, and posted a msg in a forum where GG had recently been active, and within a day or 2, the site using this technique (although it appeared to be accidental fluke of sloppy code on their part) was G-O-N-E.

My own sites and those of my clients get 80% of their traffic from Google and its content affiliates (ie Yahoo and AOL).

So why did I do this? Answer: I don't sh#$%#% where I eat.

kind regards -

patrick deese

[edited by: PatrickDeese at 4:58 am (utc) on May 11, 2003]

mayor




msg:50322
 4:35 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Google loves SEO's. If it weren't for SEO's, Google would have to depend solely on their algorithms to help people find what they're looking for.

Google hates SEO's. If it weren't for SEO's, advertisers would have to give all their ad money to Google, instead of giving some to SEO firms.

SEO's love Googleguy. He tells them what to look out for in Google's spam filters.

SEO's hate Googleguy. He doesn't tell them how to spam Google.

littleman




msg:50323
 4:48 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

>I cant help but think that Googleguy is getting information from us rather than the other way around...

GG is the official voice/perspective of google. You have to take it at that level. I am sure there are some from within google that post here unofficially (no evidence, but it is highly likely), probably from home.

>GoogleGuy and WebmasterWorld is a symbiotic relationship.
WebmasterWorld is the DMZ.

Kirby




msg:50324
 4:48 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Well said, PatrickDeese.

I'm one of the "little guys" that has benefited from the help and advise of people smarter than me who contribute on this and other forums. But Im not stupid, it is easy to spot the wannabe SEOs.

I quit using PPC along time ago. For many it isnt worth it, while others wont hesitate to go the PPC route for numerous reasons, so IMHO Google really does offer a democratic solution.

grifter




msg:50325
 4:49 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Think about it... when SEO's succeed, GOOGLE LOSES MONEY.

The free SERPs and AdWords are in complete harmony. The better the SEO gets, the harder it is for newcomers, creating more demand for AdWords. IMHO.

deanril




msg:50326
 4:54 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Theres always 2 sides to a coin, I think Staza has a valid concern. Im new so.... But could have some weight. A very little weight.

Now if you look at the adwords, the way they are displayed rather. They are in different colors on the top. And in addition they are on the right side.(as far as I can tell)

Now look at M$N, a person will never know(I never payed attention until 4 months ago after 9 years surfing the net)that the top 3 are bidding for position and the rest in the "web directory" are paying .15 cents a click. I really never payed attention too this at all, and I was a little web savy all those years.....

Now with google and adwords, I NEVER clicked on the adwords, I always clicked on the regular searches. The colored ones on top seemed weird, didnt want to click on them, the ones on the right seemed out of place, so I wasnt concerned with them.

My point is, I never payed attention, I also never clicked on adwords. If google was doing as Staza says they are, then their very first move in any direction would be to turn into another M$N. And fool everyone into clicking on the adwords/pay per clicks.

Wouldnt you think?

Buckley




msg:50327
 4:55 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Staza, I think you are looking at this from slightly the wrong angle. Yes it is about money and Yes Adwords might be their biggest revenue source......but, from what i have seen from Google, they have a simple and smart rule:

Provide the best most relevant searches for their customers and the money will take care of itself. Thats how they got this far and i'm sure thats how they will continue to grow in the future.

PFOnline




msg:50328
 5:00 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

grifter, VERY good point. Didn't look at it that way.

And I also agree that, as crazy as it may sound, Google puts providing the best possible search results before money... (Which in the end kind of ironically makes them more money) hehe :P

abcdef




msg:50329
 5:05 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

well put, Mayor. Very well put.

Inherent conflicts. Could even be discribed as a love/hate relationship. So be it.

Game on... let's roll...

Kirby




msg:50330
 5:05 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Deanril,

There was a loud outcry about concealing sponsored links as serps. To their credit, Google changed their display so the results were obviously different. I don't see Google going back on this.

As for MSN, I like Google's results more, so I havent been on MSN in months, and neither, apparently, have my customers.

deanril




msg:50331
 5:09 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Oh so your saying at some point google didnt have the colored ad words? Or the ones on the right, they were like msn?

Msn is useless, you would need to go back depending on how much competition there was, 3-5 pages to find an un sponered relevant site...

jranes




msg:50332
 5:17 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

More useless every day. hehehehe

Luke_SR




msg:50333
 5:22 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

You may or may not have a point but bringing this issue up, assuming ( as most of us feel here ) that googleguy is here to help us, you are making it VERY uncomfortable place for him to be.
While your intentions for posting are probably out of concern and for the sake of debate, the results can be losing one of the better members of WW.

Kirby




msg:50334
 5:24 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Yes. M$N did make an attempt to differentiate.

wackmaster




msg:50335
 5:25 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

I think too many people in WW confuse good SEO and good sites. They are not the same.

SEO optimized sites and "best sites for consumers" are in fact at times at odds. Yes, yes, I've read all the notices about how "well optimized sites provide better results"...but the truth is well optimzed sites that also happen to be lousy sites (and there are some) do NOT provide better results. I've got nothing against SEO; we practice it...but I can ID all sorts of examples of SEO sites beating out other sites in cases where most would agree the other sites are better/more useful (*from a purely consumer point of view*).

If Google can rework their algos, knock out some VERY SEO driven sites (that are also very commercial), and if those sites are arguably ones that the general public wouldn't miss...well gee, guess what happens? Google's quality remains high, and the commercial guys must find other ways to get traffic, aka, Adwords.

Staza paranoid? Heretical? None of the above. Just asking a logical question...IMHO ;-)

PS, I've met a lot of VC's who would call Staza'a theory 'sound business strategy'...

Kirby




msg:50336
 5:26 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Luke

GG is pretty thick skinned and he knows his value to WW and SEO in general, even if a few others don't.

Go60Guy




msg:50337
 5:53 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Face it. Those who excel at SEO are still relatively few compared to the overall number of webmasters. Most website owners haven't a clue, and a large majority of website developers and designers know next to nothing about SEO.

There's a far larger contingent of web site owners willing to pay for a shot at getting on the first page than there are those willing to do the hard work to get there by learning to optimize and being constantly vigilant over subtle, unfathomable shifts in algorythms. Adwords may only shrink the wallet a little. SEO causes brain damage.

Google knows this, and is primarily concerned with bad SEO which tends to produce prodigies of spam in the SERPs. Why else does Googleguy repeatedly ask us to report spam? I don't think Google is at all opposed to SEO which is in keeping with its guidelines.

whatson




msg:50338
 5:54 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

The only SEOs Google does not like are the ones that attempt to manipulate the results through practices such as hidden text, cloaking, etc (SPAM)
But I am sure they dont mind the hard working SEO that practices ethical practices and works hard on a genuine link campaign. Besides the better (relevant) the site the easier it would be to get more links for, wether requesting or exchanging.

magicmomo




msg:50339
 6:06 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

To understand GoogleGuy you have to read between the lines...

Alphawolf




msg:50340
 8:14 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

I admit I didn't read though the posts with perfect attention.

However, an aspect overlooked is that sometimes good SEO allows people to pay for AdWords.

Forgot who posted that exact point and what thread it was in.

If an SEO can get you to a high enough ranking for a few of your important phrases that may allow you do spend money on AdWords for other phrases.

I guess if your business is known by 2 or 3 phrases only and you can get to the Top 5 maybe SE's alone will bring enough traffic and sales.

Realistically, those top placements will be money saved or sales gained over time to go to other avenues of marketing/advertising.

AW

amazed




msg:50341
 8:26 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

google has an interest in good search results, thats the only reason why people choose google.

google has a near monopoly by producing good search results...competition would have a chance if google slips up.

fathom




msg:50342
 8:45 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Sounds a little like... biting the hand that feeds you.

As an organic SEO consultant for years, I've seen clear and conclusive evidence as of late that Google does NOT look kindly on the SEO industry as a whole. Think about it... when SEO's succeed, GOOGLE LOSES MONEY. If we can help our clients to rank better in the MAIN search results (where 95% of the traffic is), than the client will have less need to PAY Google thru Adwords!

Anyone can label themselves as an "organic SEO consultant" but this does not make them so.

Google Adwords are money makers for the client and every "organic SEO consultant" knows this. 6K in Adwords to produce 200K a month seems like a good investment.

Third... Adwords means "I need it now", ranked results means "I need information now... big difference.

We've all seen the recent "Beware of SEOs" post that Google put on their website... and if any of you are SEOs, you've surely had clients call their Google Adword Reps and ask them if its ok to use you. Whenever my prospects ask, they dont get anything positive in response thats for sure.

I agree that SEO is a dirty word > there are lots of scams out there, this is why I prefer eMarketing Consultant. Regardless of Google's specific motives... are they lying?

If you were a Google executive looking long term at revenue growth potential... and you saw the "organic" SEO industry experiencing explosive growth like it is... what would you think?

hmmm... smart business move I think... would you do anything different? (a rhetorical question).

95% of people skip over the Google Adwords and click on the main search results. That HAS to mean something Google. There is actuallly a hidden incentive now to make the results LESS relevant so that more people click on the adwords. (Im not saying they have gone this far yet, but its interesting to think about.)

As before - adword clickers are in a buyers mood.

So here's a possible theory:

While reading your theory - it came to me > what is your motive for showing everyone the error of their ways... and what would your business model be like if Google (and all other search engines were not here)... seems you would be... unemployed?

[edited by: fathom at 8:51 am (utc) on May 11, 2003]

fathom




msg:50343
 8:48 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Sorry Staza pardon my manners.... welcome to WebmasterWorld! ;)

Interesting first post! :)

This 39 message thread spans 2 pages: 39 ( [1] 2 > >
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