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Update Dominic - Part 6
mrguy




msg:113388
 9:45 pm on May 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

Wow!
I can't believe the thread for the dance that never was still grows!

Let's recap:
Normal dance:
Five days into it and it is almost over with index moving across the other 7 main data centers.

So far, 7 days into this PRE-DANCE:
The SJ data has not started to migrate to the other 7 main data centers. FI not included.

I have not seen sj results show up on www in over 3 days now.

www2 and www3 all are pointed to the IP of sj.
I've seen it mentioned that we have been privy to a part of the dance we normally don't see and I would be inclined to agree with that.

I don't think we will see the real dance start for a couple days at least. It's not a real dance anyway until all the data is applied, so I think we are all going to see a big shift from what the SJ server is showing and what will actually be in the index.

I find it funny that GoogleGuy has disappeared. I think they rolled out the new algo to get our opinions. Most searchers don't bother to fill out a satisfaction report. They just go somewhere else. In that respect, Google has a great asset in this community because they sure got a lot of feedback about what was on the SJ server. I think when the dance really starts in earnest, we'll see GoogleGuy show up again.

Anyway, back to work adding content for the next deep crawl
:)

[edited by: mrguy at 10:39 pm (utc) on May 8, 2003]

 

rfgdxm1




msg:113598
 7:01 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

>rfgdxm1, sorry to hear that you don't like the SJ index.

So far, so bad. :( The dance isn't over, but I have serious doubts Google will find the missing anchor text to the home page of my main site. If this hold, it is something you should look into because this is obviously a Google bug. The backlinks are showing, so Google knows about them. And, this has to be a Google bug. I can see falling down in the SERPs because of an algo change that just doesn't like my on page content. However, this is such an unusual anchor text keyword there is just no way that I could fall from #4 on an allinanchor: search to not being in the top 100.

>I also checked your ingredient theory in your spam report. People had suggested that a long time ago at the GooglePlex, but that's not the primary addition for SJ.

Ah ha, methinks I am on to something. I never suggested that this was a major algo ingredient. Since you know what I am talking about, stop and think. If it were a major algo ingredient, this would positively guarantee lousy Google SERPs across the board. ;) The whole idea of this ingredient would be to make it subtle, and thus at most barely noticeable to searchers.

steveb




msg:113599
 7:21 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

"I think we added a few more backlinks in yesterday."

Except for Yahoo I see less across the board. This is just further evidence that whatever is being done on -sj is being done poorly. Add means more, not less.

Alphawolf




msg:113600
 7:23 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

So far, so bad. The dance isn't over, but I have serious doubts Google will find the missing anchor text to the home page of my main site. If this hold, it is something you should look into because this is obviously a Google bug.

What is interesting to me is that a site I work on shows 'Results 11 - 17 of about 66' on www and ranks #32 with 17 actual backlinks.

But on SJ Results 11 - 14 of about 25 with 14 backlinks, but shot up in the SJ index from #32 to #14 and has been holding steady there 2 days.

So, with fewer links the site's index page ranked higher this update. And there are a dozen sub PR3 links we picked up using anchor text we needed as well as 2 PR4 pages with good links with anchor text and one PR5 link with good anchor text.

When I state 'good' I mean the text we want for the SERP we are ranking #14 in on SJ.

I wasn't expecting much of any change this index as most of the links were picked up during or after the deep crawl.

In general I wonder why the page got such a POP this index with fewer links in account thus far?

AW

NovaW




msg:113601
 7:40 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

rfgdxm1 - I agree that the anchor text is not having much impact in -sj. I have one keyword phrase that I have a lot of links that have that in the anchor text. I didn't have it on my home page - but I've been for about a year #1 in that search. My site is highly relevant to that phrase.

Now - in -sj I am like pos#7 with some sites above that have the keyword all over the page - kind of like a doorway page.

So - one can assume that anchor text is dimished and on page factors enhanced. Makes it much easier for "spammy" or opportunistic sites to rise up.

It's plainly clear that -sj just makes on page factors more important than the algo on www. There is no super secret ingredient at work.

If -sj was googles algo longterm then sites would exploit google within a few months and sharply reduce the relevancy of the results. Google may like -sj today - but if google makes it easier for sites to manipulate the results then the value of google to consumers will drop like a stone.

Of course - google is smart enough to get it right - so no real longterm worries.

abcdef




msg:113602
 9:07 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

excellent tiny dose of some wanted by many, if not needed clarification today, GG. thanks.

sullen




msg:113603
 9:12 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

have to disagree, Novaw. In my kw sector the top sites are still sites that use the key phrase very little, if at all on the page. I think anchor text is still where it's at.

deanril




msg:113604
 9:13 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Yes please Google Guy! Tell us something! This is costing me a fortune. Down for 2 days, Im not going to mention numbers but alot! Will we come back? Are we dead, should we get a adwords add, what should we do?

Why are good pr and good quality sites disapearring?

djgreg




msg:113605
 9:26 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

I too think anchor text is still very important, but it seems that there have been some on page factors addded that have to correspond with the anchor text to achieve a high ranking. Example:
I have got 2 sites which are in the same business. Each one is optimized for a single keyword. Both keywords have nearly the same number of results in google and both sites have nearly the same number of backlinks.
Now site one is still where it was the last 6 months, no changes. But site 2, which was on position 2 in the results is nowhere to see.
So the conclusion could be that site 1 has some on page factors that have made it stay on it's position while site 2 hasn't those factors.
The bad thing about it is that I damn don't know what these factors could be.
But maybe it is only luck and bad luck?

Alphawolf




msg:113606
 9:37 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

deanril,

Yes please Google Guy! Tell us something! This is costing me a fortune. Down for 2 days, Im not going to mention numbers but alot! Will we come back? Are we dead, should we get a adwords add, what should we do?

Seems www has just a handful of yuor pages indexed and most point to pages that doesn't exist anymore.

On www Results 1 - 10 of about 16

On www2 [SJ] Results 1 - 10 of about 40

All the indexed pages on www except the index page gets "The Page you were looking for was not found on this server."

You don't seem to have a robots.txt file now. Did you have one last index that caused the wrong pages to be indexed?

Only thing to think of without looking too hard is your design company is interlinking many of their sites and Google is considering this a link farm situation.

Do the other sites that your design company made show up in the SERPs?

Even if there was interlinking with all the sites it would be OK from my point of view because the design company focuses on a theme.

This is based on your homepage in your profile...

I'd purchase AdWords in the meantime if you're losing money every day.

Weird stuff for you. :(

AW

deanril




msg:113607
 9:58 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Alphawolf - WOW! thank you very much, I didnt want to get into detail, I just wanted to vent a little, and give some weight to the others who are in here saying the same thing.

You have done exactly what I have done, and I thank you, and I think Im doing it right, if you did the same thing.

#1 yes all the other sites of the design company are showing up fine, np every last one of them. So I ruled that out.

#2 the page in allinurl: Are from like 2 months ago, the ones pointing to old pages, that dont show up are old and have been changed.

#3 I show up GREAT! ON www2, www3, -sj no problem. Its just www they have 1 very old indexed home page, I dont come up for anything except allinurl.

#4 no robots file, and I havent changed anything, other then a few words here and ther, for atleast a month.

#5 no violations of googe guide lines, spam, hidden, ect

I think its the new update they have going on, and most likely Ill show up when they get done with what they are doing.

I went from 10,000 hits a day to 3500 :( , my product is expensive, we sell 15 a day, its alot when you lose 65% of your traffic : (

Thanks again Alphawolf! I really appreciate the fact you went and looked at my page for me, that blows me away, your a very helpful person thank you!

NovaW




msg:113608
 10:20 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

I'm not saying anchor text is not important in -sj - just less important. On page factors have increased.

Google may have a complex algo that factors in many elements - but at the end of the day any algo can only be fed by a combination of whats on the pages of your site and the links to your site (pagerank & anchor text).

Alphawolf




msg:113609
 10:23 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

deanril,

I think its the new update they have going on, and most likely Ill show up when they get done with what they are doing.

I went from 10,000 hits a day to 3500 , my product is expensive, we sell 15 a day, its alot when you lose 65% of your traffic : (

Yeah. Seems to me that your site was updated after the deepcrawl and no redirects were set up. I'd think you would have seen this though start of last update, not recently. That's very odd to me.

But from Googles point of view- you have a bunch of pages that were deleted off the server. They aren't going to include pages in SERP's that don't exist. Why it's 2 mos old data- who knows.

But- if you show up great in www2 then it seems all will be well in a few days. When GoogleGuy states "Sorry you don't like the SJ index" that means what we see on SJ will be what is on www. Then Google factors in additional links and SERP's change a little or a lot depending on point of view.

Thanks again Alphawolf! I really appreciate the fact you went and looked at my page for me, that blows me away, your a very helpful person thank you!

You're welcome. :) It's a nice site and by analyzing issues I learn.

Sorry you lost money, but you shouldn't rely on free traffic. :(

If anything have Overture and AdWords set up and pause AdWords and low bid on Overture. If anything like this happens again you'll be able to quickly become visible on the 'net.

Oh, I helped a bit more than most folks 'cos my name is Dean too. ;)

Good luck with the new index. Even if you rank great in the new index load up Overture and AdWprds. the only constant on Google is that they will always tinker.

Regards,

AW

PS- take a careful look at the linkage between all the sites your design company made. Although fine and even helpful to humans, Google may think it's 'fishy'. Not so many sites...but it would be an area of mild concern to me.

jady




msg:113610
 10:27 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

rfgdxm1 - I have the same very visible problem where anchor text really isnt showing up (or helping) this update as we are getting beat out of #3 spot but a company with NO keyword anchor text and only 100 (compared to 1200 down to 300) inbound links! And it was just 2 months ago that we (with the help of Webmaster World) realized how important this anchor text is and implimented MANY changes to include our keywords..

rfgdxm1




msg:113611
 10:29 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

>have to disagree, Novaw. In my kw sector the top sites are still sites that use the key phrase very little, if at all on the page. I think anchor text is still where it's at.

Sure is. If it were just on page factors and PageRank, this site of mine would be #2. Because Google lost inbound anchor text for this page, I'm hopelessly buried. :( BTW, on this SERP the site on page at #4 has *no* indexable on page text. It got to #4 solely on inbound anchor text from other sites. That site is a classic example of the dominance of inbound anchor text.

dididudu




msg:113612
 10:35 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

newbie question:

what's "inbound anchor text"?

Say the navigation links on my site is: topic 1, topic 2, topic 3.

All 3 links links to the same page: "topics.html", and topics.html have 3 anchors, and each of the above 3 links links to the specific anchor as :

<a href="topics.html#topic1">

<a href="topics.html#topic2">

<a href="topics.html#topic3">

Are these so called "inbound anchor texts"?

Jesse_Smith




msg:113613
 10:48 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Google, what ever your doing today, keep it up! I see a record on my new pages today! sj data ROCKS, and the fi data is even better! The last record was due to the freshbot.

my3cents




msg:113614
 10:55 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

inbound anchor text is

<a href="http://www.yourwebsite.com>Blue Widgets</a>

where another website links to you using this, Blue Widgets would be your anchor text.

wackmaster




msg:113615
 11:15 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Well I thought I had a handle on all this but must confess recent posts I have been reading are confusing the bajeebies out of me.

Maybe someone at WW can set me straight...

First, I'm not sure that I understand why some people are complaining of their traffic being way down. WWW has not been updated yet, so other than -sj results occasionally seeping in to WWW (for load balancing reasons?), why are some sites seeing dramatic drops in traffic? We see none of that - our traffic is more or less the same that it has been since the last update on 4/11/03).

Second, and this may apply particularly to all "in the boat with rfgdxm1", our assumption continues to be that Google will not publish -sj before first updating it - by baking in a more recent index that the one they are using now (we still see it as old because so many of the listings reflect content from the Feb index).

So, if the new index is not baked in, while looking at poor SERP results can be disturbing, they do not reflect what the update will actually be, nor even very close. Until new index is there and other missing elements are also added in, how/why should anyone fret so much?

Someone, make me smarter about this, please!? Clearly I'm missing something...

ncsuk




msg:113616
 11:20 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

www has been updated actually in one way or another. Check your links they have dropped.

canuck




msg:113617
 11:39 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

From looking at a couple of my websites this is what I'm seeing that the Backlinks situation is at (for -sj index):

- Currently backlinks are showing from about 2 months ago.

- Before this last Backlinks Update a few days ago the links appeared to be showing from about 3 months ago.

... So, it appears from a couple of my websites that they are gradually adding Backlinks one month at a time - perhaps testing the index, AND filtering some of the backlinks out.

Anyone else see anything similar?

<added>Perhaps I'm one month off on my estimates...;)</added>

MyWifeSays




msg:113618
 11:43 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Thanks for the clarification GoogleGuy, not the answer I wanted to hear but it's not the end of the world. I'll lose a couple of months worth of new links but hopefully it won't be for too long.

Does anybody think they know what's going on yet? There has to be a reason for this major change by Google and I don't see anything major in the SERPS unless it's being masked by the fact that old deepcrawl data is being used.

I'm tending to favor the theory that Google is moving to a new system. Perhaps they have modified their software so they can separately incorporate new algorithms, filters, and deepcrawl data at any time rather than all together?

I'd be interested in other opinions. BigDave what's your view on what's going on?

deanril




msg:113619
 11:45 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Alphawolf/ Dean thank you sir!

Im going to reopen my oveture and set up a adwords, for this very occasion. You advice will most definately be heeded

Thank you very much Dean!

h_b_k




msg:113620
 11:46 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

rfgdxm1,

have you checked the results after using the "repeat the search with the omitted results included" link at the bottom of the very last SERP for your keyword?

I have described my detection of a filter function at [webmasterworld.com...]

deanril




msg:113621
 11:49 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Ah ha! just checked www. Im back! Yahoo a errr Google!

But my freshly deepcrawled pages are not in yet, but are in www2/www3/-sj.

Wierd how this stuff works, I disapeared for about 36 hrs...... Now Im back with a date of may 9th...

deanril




msg:113622
 11:52 pm on May 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

SOB, now Im gone... arghh!

wackmaster




msg:113623
 12:00 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

ncsuk,
acutally, our www backlinks are in tact.. missing a lot in -sj and -fi, but not www....

davewray




msg:113624
 12:03 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

I just had a brilliant idea! What if...what if Google has constructed an algorithm that puts the worst spammers first in its pre-update servers? This algo would include points for hidden text/links, guestbook links, ffa links and keyword stuffing...all of these spam sites would place high. Google would then study the results of its SPAM algo to make sure that only spam results showed....And then with ONE FELL SWOOP...BANG! The top 100 SPAM sites for every single keyword and phrase in history is just that...HISTORY. Then, Google applies it's real Algo in the REAL update and guess what? Us good, hardworking webmasters and mistresses go even higher up in the SERP's.....

rfgdxm1




msg:113625
 12:07 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

>have you checked the results after using the "repeat the search with the omitted results included" link at the bottom of the very last SERP for your keyword?

Yes. The home page does show for this using allinanchor:. This indicates that at least some of the anchor text inbound links (possibly the internal one?) are in the database. However, most are MIA. This is such an unusual keyword that if the search is limited to allinanchor: I'd be guaranteed to do very well. My home page is #6 on the old index with allinanchor:, and I didn't lose any inbound links. Just no way I could drop out of the top 100 for this allinanchor: search short of a Google bug, or this index still not being complete.

notsleepy




msg:113626
 12:11 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

just a datapoint:

we have seen a 40% increase in traffic (16,600 uniques per day) starting yesterday and dramatic increase in the number of pages that are currently indexed.

if this index sticks, we are quite happy.

littlecloud




msg:113627
 12:14 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

deanril .So you were in for a total of 3 minutes?

Anyway , this whole backlinks adding process on -sj is going exactly the way GG said it would a week ago. All I can say is speed it up guys,maybe we can get to April tonight. overtime is in order at the googleplex.

deanril




msg:113628
 12:44 am on May 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Yep 3 minutes, Im back again! Here we go! hopefully for 6 minutes! lol

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