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Hand picked submissions
Sharron




msg:703375
 3:31 pm on Jul 30, 2002 (gmt 0)

I have posted a couple of threads over the last few days regarding the use of doorway pages and also the use of urls to redirect to our main site using frames. I am now at the point of meeting with a couple of companies and have received this comment from a potential supplier who was unsucessful with their bid.

<snipped>

Whilst I am aware of the issue regarding the doorway pages I was a bit surprised to hear the comment that all submissions are hand picked... I am aware that apart from google we are likely to appear after paid for listings but surely not every1 is doing this by hand now?

Also is anyone aware of limits on how many urls you can point at 1 site?

[edited by: Marcia at 12:23 pm (utc) on July 31, 2002]
[edit reason] No email quotes please, per Terms of Service [/edit]

 

jdMorgan




msg:703376
 9:22 pm on Jul 30, 2002 (gmt 0)

Sharron,

Welcome to WebmasterWorld!

Your question and variants of it, probably constitute 10% of all posts here on this board, but
I'll take a shot at a summary:

This "hand-picking" applies to the DMOZ Open Directory Project, the Yahoo! Directory, and a few
other directories, but not to search engines. However, most search engines use these directories
as "seed stock" when they start to spider the web to build a new index. Having links from these
directories is therefore very important. In addition, Google's Page Rank algorithm assigns very
high Page Rank to these directories, and in Google's scheme, Page Rank is inherited by sites listed
in these directories.

Niether the directories nor Google will look kindly upon the submission of multiple domains leading
to identical content. Some directories will remove all of your listings if they detect domain-
spamming, and they *do* actively seek it out. In Google's case, they will remove your duplicate
entries, and leave only your highest-Page_rank site in their index. Therfore, the Page Rank you
have garnered from incoming links to your duplicate domains will be lost. Therefore, the duplicate
domains can have the effect of "diluting" your site's Page Rank, since the benefit of the incoming
links to the de-listed duplicate domains will be lost.

Extremely good results can be achieved by using multiple domains pointing to the same content, but
only until you get the "death penalty" after a few months.

The new rules seem to be: Please the end-customer, please the search engines, and please your direct
customer, in that order. Most of the "old tricks" don't work any more because the search engines
have gotten wise to them. Those tricks that still work may stop working soon. The result of trying
to "cheat the system" can be found easily here on WebmasterWorld - simply use the site search
feature here, and search for "Site dropped," "Page Rank 0," and "PR0 penalty". In many cases,
mistakes made by members who just didn't know any better have resulted in companies almost going
out of business - or worse.

Spend your time creating good, useful content, making your site user-friendly, and validating the
code on your site to W3C compliance. Use optimization techniques only insofar as they help
consumers who really want what you have to offer find you and and purchase easily. Get incoming
links from other highly-ranked sites relevant to your business (i.e. suppliers, customers, interest
groups). All else will fall into place.

Tricks are out, content is in. On-page optimization techniques (e.g. keyword density, etc.) can
still be used, as long as they don't make the language sound unnatural - remember those human
directory editors!

I'm sure I haven't covered more than 1% of it -- Do take advantage of the site search, Google
Knowledge base, and archives here on WebmasterWorld.

Be careful, and good luck!
Jim

<edit> See this thread [webmasterworld.com] </edit>

Sharron




msg:703377
 11:50 am on Jul 31, 2002 (gmt 0)

Thnx Jim,

I have just been offered a marketing solution that proposes the use of a number (10) domain names that all have a hompage but are made to look like one site. the idea being that the homepages will all be optimised and hopefully increase rankings. Once you have found our site, or if you go to it directly from the company name url, and navigate around it you will actually move from URL to URL although you may not notice the address change because the look of the site will be the same.

Do you think this is a valid way forward or is it basically a method of trying to increase ranking which could lead to trouble in terms od penalisation or usability?

If any1 has any thoughts on this I'd be happy to hear them.... please! ;-)

DaveN




msg:703378
 11:58 am on Jul 31, 2002 (gmt 0)

Sharron,

This is a Dangerous path you are entering down,

firstly are all the domains hosted on the same server? - crosslinking sites to gain a better postion in the SE's is against nearly all thier TOS.

You would be better off getting a couple of good directory entries DMOZ(free) and Yahoo(pay to play).

Then get emailing the themed sites in your industry which are listed in google this will help you google pr.

Then find some good portal and votals to be listed in.

Do all this by HAND not automated software

DaveN

paynt




msg:703379
 12:26 pm on Jul 31, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hello again Sharron,

Youíve been asking some very good questions lately and this encourages us to think again about our SEO practices. I have continued to caution restraint and I had hoped advice you against both the doorways and redirects but my previous advice must not have been strong enough because you appear to still be on that route.

Listen to the advice from jdMorgan, a very good response and a great referenced discussion heís included. I seem to be making this warning a lot lately but a little bit of knowledge can be a very dangerous thing, especially when you begin to apply practices that you think you know. Some techniques are advisably risky and both the doorways and redirects are two of them. They are also expensive and should be overseen by experts that you trust and know their track record along.

<Warning! The strategy you suggest with your first post should be taken at your own risk. If for some reason you continue to follow this strategy, do so with the knowledge that the time, effort and money you put into it is disposable because you MAY have to toss it all.>

<Additional warning! Has the company that has suggested this idea discussed with you the submission process and what to expect? What is the plan for getting these pages out there? Whatís your linking strategy? Those can get you in to big trouble too so be sure you have the right answers to those questions before you determine the course your taking with your optimization.>

number (10) domain names that all have a hompage but are made to look like one site.

For goodness sake, just say no. Thatís my advice, pure and simple. You simply donít have the knowledge yet to consider that option. I know itís not as exciting to hear again this advice but jdMorgan gave it to you straight with the best advice youíll receive:

Spend your time creating good, useful content, making your site user-friendly, and validating the code on your site to W3C compliance.

Thereís your first step. I hope you donít mind me talking to you straight here Sharron but there are many lurkers around here who have even less understanding then you are gaining through your questioning and if youíre still considering this path after the last few discussions then what must some of our lurking friends be thinking? I believe itís important to stop and think first and plan out a strategy that has enough caution built in to stand up against possible penalties or banning, for those who still want to be tricky.

added>Great post by DaveN!

Sharron




msg:703380
 2:30 pm on Jul 31, 2002 (gmt 0)

Thanks for all the advice, I am certainly not taking offence, all this is new ground to me and it seems to be shifting on a daily basis. We are unfortunately at the mercy of the advice received from the companies tendering, which is why I have been running back to you all with my, "Now they've said ..." updates.

I know Tigger has suggested that we do this work ourselves but our manpower and knowledge base isn't really up to it so we are reliant on advice from the "experts" the problem being verify what they are saying and offering.

I hadn't looked at the homepage offer as a cross linking strategy but think I have read some articles advising against this, I would have thought that the links would be good in that they increase link popularity - am I right to assume this isn't the case? If not y not?

DaveN




msg:703381
 2:42 pm on Jul 31, 2002 (gmt 0)

Sharron,

Just stop and listen to what you are saying.

Link pop is very important that is why google weighs heavily on GOOD incoming links, not pre-manufacured one page easy fix websites,

It all about hard and honest work not quick fixes,

Here today gone tommorrow ?

Think about the ten domains all keyword rich all costing a faction of what your main domain cost and when your main domain is booted out of the search engines your next question will been asking is "how do i get back into the search engines ? "

when the question you should be asking is why is my marketing company or seo offering a quick fix and not long term ?

Who will be around the longest you or them.

DaveN

Sharron




msg:703382
 3:05 pm on Jul 31, 2002 (gmt 0)

I do hear what you are saying DavidN but because I'm new to this I need to find out what constitutes the quick fix from the long term plan. Web marketing companies will say they are offering longterm plans because you are working with them over a twelve month period...

Whilst I am looking to optimise the content of my site I am also being offered extra curricular activities as it were to improve ranking, one being a redirect framed page of additional URLs redirecting immediately to the main site the other is the use of cross links with the domains to make it look like one site.

It would seem that neither are an option and both stand to potentially get us thrown out. The problem is that it's hard to say no when both companies will provide references and you are never going to know about any clients that may have been booted out!

Whilst I appreciate good ranking requires hard work I'm having trouble identifying into what area we should be putting the resources

DaveN




msg:703383
 3:21 pm on Jul 31, 2002 (gmt 0)

try this post what question to ask an SEO

[webmasterworld.com...]

DaveN

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