Hi there, DigitalGhost, welcome to WebmasterWorld.
I've seen one of our more accomplished SEOs say he/she hasn't resubmitted in over a year. But I don't know if *not* submitting would be OK with client sites, when the client expects submissions to be done.
There's something in Google's Webmaster tips that mentions not having enough inbound links as a possibility for not being included in the index, but have never seen anything about a penalty for simply doing a submission.
I remember something from way back about Inktomi applying a penalty for submitting, which is lifted if and when they find a site through a link. But can they or others besides Google or FAST be relied on to add sites without paying at this point in time anyway?
Without mention of penalty, I do remember it being mentioned that Inktomi will find sites though certain quality links, with evidence cited that a site not submitted was added shortly after a substantial link was made available. That would be in the Pay for Spidering forum, if you care to hunt - it's in an Inktomi thread.
I've not read anything at all recently and don't know of any evidence to substantiate that there's any penalty, so personally, I'll submit anyway so that I can honestly report that submissions have been done; but I think wisdom dictates recommending paying for spidering given current conditions, just to give a fair chance and an honest viewpoint.
One of the dissenting points of view with the non-submission strategy was concern over how the client would react to non-submission.
Personally, I can't think of any of my recent clients that would go for that.
I also mentioned submitting to foreign search engines in the thread which is largely ignored by many SEOs.
The original thread is here if you'd like to take a look:
As I said, I was looking for more input on this, I like to gather as much information as possible and I plan to write a short piece on this after I get enough info to analyze.
|brotherhood of LAN|
As a precaution, I would say its best to submit to the likes of Google at site launch, when you havee content, and perhaps some of the other bigger, but lesser players.
Best to be safe than sorry
I don't submit.
With me it's a mind set thing, removing the option to submit makes it easier for me to work the web map.
>how the client would react to non-submission.
Tell the client to get on with their business whilst you get on with yours :)
Hi digitalghost - welcome.
>work the web map.
Good advice from NFFC. Once you've built your incoming links, the "good" search engines will find you.
The smaller, more geographic, or vertical search services may need a hint your site is there, but, generally, submissions are not that important.
Of course, you'll need to submit to the directories, etc., so, you will have to have a submission strategy for that.
Marcia makes the point about:
>the client expects submissions
Quite right, they do, mainly because of the add url option, however, most don't fully understand the implications of the submission and its value, however, do keep a record of any submission you make.
Take the lead and advise your clients that submissions to the top search engines are not the priority.
So how many search engines are left that give the option of submit vs let them find you?
Isn't it more a question of where do I want my page to appear and what do I have to pay for it?
So there is Google - what NFFC and Engine said.
Then there's Fast - submitting sometimes brings you in in no time.
But then - for many engines free submits are like dead phones. And even if you do get in you get buried.
Aren't the glorious days of engines eager to cover the www all gone?
My main objection to the non-submission tactic is the loss of traffic from foreign engines.
The World is consistently left out of the WWW and I think a large traffic resource is left untapped.
I can state for a fact that some of the overseas engines that provide good traffic will NOT list your site unless it is submitted to them.
Another issue is the viral way in which links become traded across the web. A link in a high traffic non-U.S. directory or engine seems to foster links in more non-U.S. sites and more engines and directories. Site descriptions provided in the native language of the engine in question also seem to aid in link promotion in non-U.S. engines, directories and sites.
Typical U.S optimization strategies tend to ignore the rest of the world in their traffic promotion ideas, let alone the actual optimization of sites explicitly for foreign engines. Granted, it is a lot of work, but the ROI has been worth it for several client sites as well as a couple of my own sites.
Another consideration is the deep indexing of sites with considerable content. Simply waiting for crawls utilizing link strategy would seem vastly time consuming. If every engine indexed as well as Google this wouldn't be as much of an issue, unfortunately, most engines do NOT index content as well as Google.
I've always found this idea of "let it find you" rather curious. I can't say I've ever seen it one way or another.
With estimates in the 5-10 billion range of pages on the net, it's obvious se's can't - at this point - index them all. I can't imagine an se being willing to give a site a boost because "it found it" before it was submitted. I don't see the logic in that.
I do however, practice it myself from time to time (not intentionally though). When a new domain goes online it is often not really in a state to be seen by anyone. Often while the work is being preformed, an se will find it.
I also used to practice "submission by insinuation" (eg: dangle a referral string to the se's and see if they bite). Google used to bite all the time - it was good fishing. They don't do that anymore from what I can tell. I think they used it just to build the se and reward those that linked with them.
I am new to being a webmaster but when I began working on our website in October, we had no web presence. We had almost no text, only graphics and no meta tags. Since then I have filled the site with content, paid for inclusion into Yahoo, Inktomi, AV and recently Ask Jeeves. In the meantime, I have submitted by hand to local search engines and to many, many foreign search engines. Fact is, our email request from foreigners continue to fill our email 3 to 1 over local contacts.
Just my experience
I have found a method which works surpirisingly well. I have created a webpage on some free web space with a dummy news artical. From that article I link to my sites. I've simply submitted the article and rotate it once a month. This allows me to get the supposed non-submittal bonus.
>"let it find you" rather curious
I'll re-phrase then :)
Make it find you, without submitting. I don't see a boost either but there is never a penalty.
I too have had a much better conversion rate from traffic coming from foreign engines.
There are several reasons for this, but I'm looking into those now and really don't want to speculate without more info .
I'm still submitting, my clients are still happy and traffic is good.
Very interesting thread, considering I just found my not-even-close-to-being-done site indexed in Google. Zero incoming links.
|When a new domain goes online it is often not really in a state to be seen by anyone. Often while the work is being preformed, an se will find it. |
I have no idea how Google found me. Is this bad to be in so early in the game? I have a pr0. All white bar.
Were you viewing the page using Explorer with the Google toolbar installed during construction?
I agree with Brett and I also think it is better for a siteowner to have a site indexed, even if not finished, rather than not.
As for PR0, if it was a domain
a) Prevoiusly listed: worry.
b) If it is new: Don't worry.
Paid submission I just don't do. When a site is created I ask a few friends with websites to put up a link to the new site. A little news feature.
To whatever catagory the site is specific to, lets say Macintosh Computers - I then research all the news sites for Macintosh computers. When the site is launch date I send a little note or submit feedback, submit news to them stating it is online.
I then submit to all my engines just the standard thing. Next month all is well and the site is doing well. :)
Id love to submit to foreign search engines, but many of them are not in English, as hard as that is to believe.
There's a few Israeli SEs Id love to submit to, but I cannot read Hebrew to save my own life.
How do you overcome the language barrier when submitting to foreign engines?
If you don't have content in the target language why would you want to submit there? If I'm searching on an English SE/dir and find a matching result but the page is all in Russian...not only do I hit the back button off the result, but my opinion of the SE/dir lowers as well. You're not doing anyone any favors by putting non-target language sites in these SE/dirs.
|How do you overcome the language barrier when submitting to foreign engines? |
I use the Babelfish translator to offer the site in different languages. It's not perfect but it's readable, at least I think it is. It's more of an experimental thing to research the possibility of offering the site in different languages using a dynamic translator. I dont know how effective it is, but it's at least a first step in making the site more international. I guess Im wanting to show Im not a nationalistic arrogant American pig :D
Didn't mean to come across sounding too harsh there...apologies if I did...there's nothing wrong with wanting an international site. The machine/dynamic translators are a decent tool at times, but I wouldn't rely on them to be my only means of getting to a target audience. If you're serious about a particular language market, get the site translated professionally. There's really no comparison between the two. Just take a Chinese page and run it thru Babel and see if you can understand the English that comes out.
If you do have relevant language content then it is certainly a good idea to submit to the smaller regional sites. They're generally not Google level behemoths and require prodding.
No apologies necessary :D Ive been flirting with te idea of ofering a translation in Hebrew. The only problem though is that the site is partially dynamic so I would have to consistently get it translated whenever there's an update. That's where the dynamic translator comes in, but of obviously it's not the ideal solution. Maybe once I start generating revenues (if that ever happens this side of heaven) I can look into a contract with a translation service and see what they have to offer.
Thanks for the advice!