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recently a victim of fraud

 7:50 pm on Apr 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hi all, im new to the board and i just had a few questions that I would appreciate if some you vets could help me out with.

I was recently a victim of fraud via wire transfer. I sent the money over seas to have the person i thought was credible vanish.

I have 2 main bank accounts that were left behind. An HSBC bank account with full details and a smaller local bank with full details.

Can a reverse wire be performed? Please enlighten me. Thanks so much.
Paolo from Toronto



 7:56 pm on Apr 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

If it was a fraud, just call your banker and tell him to pull money back, he must contact destionation bank and freeze that money. At least they do so (VISA) when you report VISA card fraud. Don't wait, call now.


 7:57 pm on Apr 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

Id be very much surprised if you could, its not something Ive ever heard of being done.

Whats to say that the money is still in the account anyway?


 8:01 pm on Apr 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

i have just contacted my bank and they are looking into the matter to see if the reverse can be down. Thanks for the replies, anyone else? More insight into the situation would be appreciated.

thanks again


 8:35 pm on Apr 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

i did a reverse with VISA once and it was not a problem. they put the money back on my account, then they sent me some forms to fill (my acknowledge that this was a fraud) and that was it...


 11:07 pm on Apr 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

In the USA, bank wires can be returned (charged back) in the first two months, subject to Regulation E. Just go to your bank and ask to file a claim under Regulation E. You may have to talk to one of the higher-ups before you find someone who understands.


 11:58 pm on Apr 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

"In the USA, bank wires can be returned (charged back) in the first two months"
And where does this chargeback "return" money come from when the owner of the accout withdraws the funds and closes his account 10 minutes after the transfer and disappears?

You think your bank will do this from their own funds?Jessh!

What does this mean?
"I have 2 main bank accounts that were left behind. An HSBC bank account with full details and a smaller local bank with full details.


 12:01 am on Apr 13, 2005 (gmt 0)

"At least they do so (VISA) when you report VISA card fraud."

A wire transfer has nothing to do with Visa's policies.


 12:06 am on Apr 13, 2005 (gmt 0)

So if the account has been closed, isnt there a way to get the individuals information? In order to have that bank account, personal information must have been givin to open it.
any clue
thanks guys, keep the comments coming.


 12:33 am on Apr 13, 2005 (gmt 0)

"I sent the money over seas to have the person i thought was credible vanish."
Where was the money transferred? You say only "overseas." You used the word "vanish" which says a lot.

Most likely the "overseas" account was opened with phony identification. The crook probably put some money IN the bank first. Under that situation, the bank isn't going to ask many questions.

And what are you going to do even if you positively know who the culprit is....if he lives in Africa, much of E. Europe, most of Asia etc?

You should have thought of that first!


 9:48 pm on Apr 13, 2005 (gmt 0)

what i meant by the 2 accounts is that the fraudster gave me 2 seperate bank account details to send my wire to.
What if these accounts remain open? I have tracked down this perpetrater and i am communicating with him through another email address, remaining incognito. I am trying to get more bank details from him, to confirm if the accounts remain in use. What do you guys think?


 3:32 am on Apr 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Paolo, can you be more specific about the country which you sent the wire to, and also about the amount involved. If it is in Hong Kong, I may be able to give you some suggestions.

If it is fraud, you can assume that he has already withdrawn all the money and a chargeback would not be possible. You will have to pursue other means


 9:14 pm on Apr 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

Ok heres what i know. The country is.. everyone ready to laugh? Indonesia. go figure, i didnt do my research. The guy that stole my money is actually a lot bigger fraud than i previously thought. I am communicating with him through another email address, obviously pretending to be interested in his products. I have a few bank account details that he has given me. I also contacted the Indonesian Embassy in Ottawa, Canada to see what they suggest( i was told to do so by the local authorities).


 9:15 pm on Apr 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

1300 CANADIAN/ 1000 USD


 10:06 pm on Apr 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

Indonesia and Nigeria are both red alerts in the fraud scams business.

I'm not sure where any recovery is due you since you authorized the transfer yourself, it's not like you were the victim of an unauthorized ACH transaction, it's not the banks fault. If it's a real fraud the likelihood of recovering anything from his account are highly unlikely as he probably cashed out and closed the account right away and moved on.

If the authorities will help you catch him, that's probably your best bet.


 12:02 am on Apr 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

Why would you wire transfer $1,000 to Indonesia?


 2:41 am on Apr 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

Why would you wire transfer $1,000 to Indonesia?

So they could steal it, why else?


 8:11 am on Apr 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

In the USA, bank wires can be returned (charged back) in the first two months

A credit card payment can be charged back.
A cheque can bounce.
A wire transfer can be returned - you just talk to your bank manager and tell him you sent the money in error, it was fraud.

Seems there's no safe way to get payment from a US buyer. Very good for honest sellers to know. *sigh*

In most European countries (not UK) cheques are virtually no longer used and to get back money transferred by wire you need a court ruling establishing it was indeed fraud. At least I've never heard of any other way to do it. Of course the bank can do the reverse if the sender typed the wrong account number and the recipient agrees that the money doesn't belong to him. But then the name of the recipient will not match either.


 1:41 pm on Apr 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

"A wire transfer can be returned - you just talk to your bank manager and tell him you sent the money in error, it was fraud."
But you didn't send the money in error. You did it because you were stupid and greedy. And if you could easily get your money back, you'd do it again!

Does the bank manager take out his own wallet and reimburse you from his own pay? Where does the money come from if the destination account has been emptied, which is almost certainly the case?

Jeesh, I hope our USA banks aren't as stupid as a few online merchants. Wiring money to someone you don't know in Indoesnia (or Nigeria) goes way beyond the term "Error" or even "Fraud." It's more like making a gift to the crook, LOL!


 1:57 pm on Apr 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

jsinger, I think you're being a bit harsh and combative. There's no need to insinuate that he/she is stupid and greedy for trying to place an order overseas. It was a mistake based on not doing enough research on importing, and "safe" countries that I'm sure he won't make again whether the money is returned or not.


 2:53 pm on Apr 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

"jsinger, I think you're being a bit harsh and combative."

You betcha! The reality IS harsh, and not just for him.

FACT: Almost definitely, a bank isn't going to help you get your money back from Indonesia.

Fraud causes problems for all of us. Our email and shopping cart are clogged with fraud attempts from Nigeria and Indonesia because a tiny number of people fall for scams that are utterly transparent to anyone with a molecule of sense. People are shying away from conducting business online because of scams that most of us would never fall for. This guy isn't the only victim of his naiveté.


 4:28 pm on Apr 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

I agree that the bank isn't likely to help in this situation.

But, I do have some sympathy here. I've come very close to ordering some stock from overseas (India), but decided against it because I was worried about this very thing. My volume justifies going to the source, and the money I stood to save would be great, but I didn't want to take the chance.

Maybe some of you that do import could use this, or another, thread to share some information. Besides ignoring the obvious countries like Nigeria, Indonesia, and the like, is there anyway to check out a company you want to buy from? Even if you're careful about the country, there's always a chance that the company is scamming.


 5:02 pm on Apr 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

thanks for all your replies guys.


 5:22 pm on Apr 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

Rachel is right. Paolomancini in Canada has already suffered enough. But the related topic I raised is still not competently addressed. Is it possible in USA to reverse wire transfers, as Upside said in msg #6? I'm occasionally selling to USA and the risk of having a wire transfer payment received here reversed after two months by a decision of the American bank is a concern.

Regarding buying from India I believe Rachel's conclusion was correct. It would be cheaper to buy directly and the Indians would then earn better, but the risk is great. I'm in Europe but that's the common view here too.

The profit has to be huge to cover the possible losses resulting from e.g. not getting the merchandise exactly as ordered and expected. The middlemen in America/Europe can use documentary credit etc., and they know their suppliers. There are, after all, companies that know the tricks how to import even from Nigeria and Indonesia.

So when Americans are reluctant to send money to certain countries I'm worried about receiving payments from US. But I trust these my concerns are unfounded.


 11:50 pm on Apr 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

I asked my bank about reversing a wire transfer when I had wired money to an Indian company and they had not come through with the goods and were giving me the runaround for months. My bank said they could ASK that the money be returned but that the account holder could refuse to return it, which they considered would be likely in the case of a fraud. So I didn't bother with that. Instead...

I first found out the equivalent of the Better Business Bureau in their city in India and sent them a letter denouncing the company as a fraud, cc'ing the offending company. But what actually worked was my phony website about them. Let us just say the name of the offenders was indianwidgets.com. I told them I had bought the domain indianwidgetsarethieves.com (I actually had not) and would put up a website in their honor and submit it to all the search engines and that every time any search was done for them, the thief site would also come up, and they would look like the skeeves and losers they were. I also told them I would notify the US Treasury Department that they were engaging in wire fraud, which is fine as long as they stay in India, but the next time they wanted to come to a trade show in US, they would find out they could get a nice long visa to visit our penal system.

They then pretended it was all a big mistake and sent me my stuff right away. Later they went out of business.

Threatening to put up a website outlining a company's thievery also worked with an American company that cheated me out of $17.00 and refused to respond to a Better Business Bureau complaint.

So there are things you can do.


 12:00 am on Apr 19, 2005 (gmt 0)

This sort of fraud is just as likely to happen in China as anywhere else, but this is one country you cannot avoid because it is now the world's factory.

What we did before our first purchase was to make an appointment to visit their factory. We only placed an order once we were satisfied. So far things have gone alright. However a couple of weeks ago, we learnt that the salesman who have been dealing with us had been fired because he was asking his customers to wire money into his personal account. I suppose we have been luckly so far.......


 4:22 pm on Apr 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

well ive learned a valuable lesson that I can carry with me wherever i may do business next. thanks for all the comments and i appreciate those who stood up for me.

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