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Proof of delivery on credit card payments
this is nice, but it isnt fool proof, is it?
rfung




msg:622364
 7:09 pm on Dec 25, 2003 (gmt 0)

Say, I'm using a cc transaction system.

I buy an item from a scam site with CC transaction abilities unknowningly.Two scenarios:

1) the scammer grabs an empty box, gets delivery confirmation from USPS, ships it to me.

2) the scammer grabs the actual item I bought, gets delivery confirmation, ships it to his buddy in different address, same state.

in both cases, I could contest the case with my credit card company, and they might request proof from the seller that the item was shipped, in both cases, 1) and 2) the seller would have been able to provide this information to the CC company. How would they handle this?

I'm concerned that proof of shipment (which usually (and in my case) wouldnt have any way to know which address it should have been sent to, or even that the item was the one supposed to) isnt really a very secure way to know a transaction has taken place and that a product has been shipped.

am i correct in assuming the flaws in using such a system?

 

Dpeper




msg:622365
 9:03 pm on Dec 25, 2003 (gmt 0)

Who would so such a thing? The internet has nobuddy on it that would "scam". Any who I think the credit card company would ask the shipment address from you to verify that the merchant sent it to the proper address.

Donny

rfung




msg:622366
 4:09 am on Dec 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

Even if they did send to the right address, they could have sent an empty box. Under the eyes of the CC company (or even , to a greater extent, paypal) the seller would have supplied the proof requested.

My issue is that even though I hope no one does such dastardly deeds, I'd like to know how 'secure' it really is.

Reflect




msg:622367
 7:44 pm on Dec 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

On option 1) I would think weight would be a factor as it is tracked.

On option 2) they show the end shipping address so if they ship to a "buddy" you would be able to show this.

Brian

NFFC




msg:622368
 7:49 pm on Dec 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

In the UK it matters not if you signed a delivery note, if you didn't sign the CC slip then you can dispute the charge and will_always_win.

grey259




msg:622369
 7:58 pm on Dec 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

The weight is tracked.. also, the higher than average number of fraud complaints would clue them in.

If an item is shipped in the box, to cover the weight problem, the receiver will have an item with a matching weight to show in the dispute. This might slip by the credit card company once, but not much more than that. The pattern becomes too recognizable.

If they've gone through the trouble of attracting the visitors and convincing them to order, why scam the customer at the last second? It's a lot more hassle and is much less viable than accepting a narrower profit margin and possibly a return customer.

Even if they do manage to scam the credit card company, the customer is still out there and pissed off. They'll have to deal with him. They can't avoid their customer service line or the CC company will cut them off.

ogletree




msg:622370
 8:04 pm on Dec 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

Choose UPS and don't answer the door when it is delivered. They will just drop it off even if signature is required. If you have to pick it up at UPS tell them you don't want to sign anything unless you open it and make sure it was there. If it is delivered to someone else you can always prove it is not your signature just by showing them your real signature.

rfung




msg:622371
 8:11 pm on Dec 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

well, I should have been a bit more specific about my particular situation.

What I intend on doing is putting together individual buyers and sellers (sort of like an amazon marketplace or ebay) - my site being the intermediary. So, a buyer will request to buy a widget, the seller gets an email to which he needs to confirm. Then buyer pays for widget on my site, and once seller ships item out with any delivery confirmation shipping option, posts the tracking id back on the site, at which point I issue payment to seller.

Now, since I am the one taking the credit card payment, I'm the one liable for any credit card fraud issues. So perhaps now the scenarios I've given make more sense:

what if the seller ships out a box with junk to the buyer? the buyer gets it, he's pissed, requests a credit card charge back. Since the seller already entered the tracking code on the site, he's already been paid. In a way, I'm wondering how Ebay handles that...uhm..

For example, I just sold a digicamera to another ebay user. I seem to have forgotten to include the battery charger. Well, I paid with paypal, im verified, I sent it to the buyer's verified address, and I already have the positive feedback on ebay. There's absolutely nothing preventing me from just totally disregarding this person's request. Had this been a box full of junk that she only deemed to open after Xmas , what recourse would she have had?

ogletree




msg:622372
 8:24 pm on Dec 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

That is why you have a feedback system. You can't get away with that for very long. People get ripped off on Ebay every day. That is just life. I used to be a seller and I never got ripped off if I watched for red flags. You can tell if something is wrong. Of course there is always the risk of getting ripped off just about anywhere.

CernyM




msg:622373
 10:32 pm on Dec 26, 2003 (gmt 0)


What I intend on doing is putting together individual buyers and sellers (sort of like an amazon marketplace or ebay) - my site being the intermediary. So, a buyer will request to buy a widget, the seller gets an email to which he needs to confirm. Then buyer pays for widget on my site, and once seller ships item out with any delivery confirmation shipping option, posts the tracking id back on the site, at which point I issue payment to seller.

Sounds like an escrow service.

Generally, the seller isn't paid until the buyer indicates that the item has been received and it is as expected. No significant chance of seller-based fraud in an escrow system. If the seller ships a box with a brick in it, the buyer lets you know and you refuse to release funds.

Buyer side fraud is a different issue - but then again, if there was no risk, the world wouldn't need escrow services. From looking over the fee tables, escrow is pretty pricey.

WebStart




msg:622374
 10:31 pm on Jan 1, 2004 (gmt 0)

Re: original post

My experience as an Internet retailer, is that the retailer usually loses when any card using customer claims fraud. The Internet merchant never has the face to face verification and signature, so he can never use that to prove "who" really used the card.

The bias by the card companies is to their card holding customers, not to the merchant who pays their fees -- ie : the card holder is innocent of purchase until proven guilty; the merchant is guilty of an unauthorized charge unless he can prove the card holder guilty.

On one occasion I had a customer claim non-delivery, and I had proof of delivery, name and address verification, date card was used, an email complaint from that customer and a redeliver to same customer same address -- all that should have been necessary to show customer did charge the card and got the merchandise) and even then that was not good enough for me in that case, where the card company's response was: "treat it like a bad debt and go after him legally for the money, but you won't get your money from us."

So bottom line -- I don't think you have too much to worry about

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