homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 54.161.192.130
register, free tools, login, search, pro membership, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Become a Pro Member
Home / Forums Index / Code, Content, and Presentation / HTML
Forum Library, Charter, Moderators: incrediBILL

HTML Forum

This 46 message thread spans 2 pages: < < 46 ( 1 [2]     
Debate : Recall IE?
Is it time to hold Microsoft Accountable?
Brett_Tabke

WebmasterWorld Administrator brett_tabke us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 3:54 pm on Jul 12, 2004 (gmt 0)

Resolved : after 7 years on the market Microsoft's Internet Explorer continues to falter on an almost weekly basis. Even Microsofts own attempts at fixes are problematic to the point one wonders if you we should apply a patch at all - because you know you will have to probably apply a patch to fix the patch!

Therefore, IE is so fundamentally flawed at it's origin and has cost business (imho) billions in productivity and loses due to virus propagation and exploits, that the US Govt should force a recall of the product.

 

Brett_Tabke

WebmasterWorld Administrator brett_tabke us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 3:00 pm on Jul 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Side thought : should US "lemon" laws apply to software?

digitalv

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 5:58 pm on Jul 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Side thought : should US "lemon" laws apply to software?

How could it? The lemon law, which only applies to vehicles by the way, contains the following:

If the manufacturer, or its authorized service agent, cannot conform the motor vehicle to the warranty by repairing or correcting any nonconformity after a reasonable number of attempts, the manufacturer, within 40 days, shall repurchase the motor vehicle and refund the full purchase price to the consumer, less a reasonable offset for use, or, in consideration of its receipt of payment from the consumer of a reasonable offset for use, replace the motor vehicle with a replacement motor vehicle acceptable to the consumer.

How could that possibly apply to an operating system? First off, there is no warranty for software. But even if there was, if the manufacturer couldn't "fix" the product what would they do, replace it with another (equally defective) copy?

A lemon law isn't necessary for a free or downloadable product because we can replace it with another one ourselves. You're really reaching man ... what spawned this latest anti-IE kick you're on?

encyclo

WebmasterWorld Senior Member encyclo us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 6:14 pm on Jul 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Brett, I don't know about the US "lemon" laws, so I can't answer directly. However, here are a few thoughts. Are you proposing that software should be obligatorily covered by some sort of warranty, or some sort of guarantee of fitness for use? That may certainly hurt Microsoft, but if we take a step backwards and look at the bigger picture, because you can't just target MS, you have to target all software suppliers. Such a measure may well do the most damage in other areas - the law of unintended consequences. Smaller software houses or open-source developers couldn't afford the liability, and in attacking MS on this front is actually risking killing alternative and open-source projects which, unlike MS, can't afford the insurance. If only big business can afford to produce software, that would be a nightmare.

So let's look at the current situation with Internet Explorer again. You seemingly can't do a product recall as MS have appear to have no liability, and anyway such a recall would be ineffective. Here's another angle for you: if I go to my local computer store today and purchase a PC with Windows XP loaded, I know that I am buying something that is vulnerable to a number of exploits and contains a number of known bugs. By updating Windows the first time I connect, I can mitigate (but not eliminate) the risk as patches are currently available for many (but not all) of these bugs. However, the fact remains that the installation of Windows XP on every new machine in the store, as well as on every copy of Windows XP on the shelf, is not fit for use without patching.

What to do which would be effective? Require the removal of Windows XP from sale to the public until a patched version of the software is available, both in shrink-wrapped copies and on preinstalled new PCs. Shut down all of Microsoft's sales until they have fixed their product. That will protect the consumer and force MS to address the problems. If Microsoft's flagship product is off the shelves, that would have a huge impact.

So, whaddya think?!

digitalv

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 6:42 pm on Jul 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

What to do which would be effective? Require the removal of Windows XP from sale to the public until a patched version of the software is available, both in shrink-wrapped copies and on preinstalled new PCs. Shut down all of Microsoft's sales until they have fixed their product. That will protect the consumer and force MS to address the problems. If Microsoft's flagship product is off the shelves, that would have a huge impact.

So, whaddya think?!

I think it's a poor solution that would cripple many businesses and force honest businesses into piracy.

When we're talking about MSIE, it's only "vulnerable" if you're connected to the Internet and using the browser. Blocking the sale of the entire OS might help Microsoft to get it into gear, but what about those of us who have to buy computers in the meantime or those who don't really care?

If your sole purpose of buying a PC is say to burn CD's or store files on a LOCAL network without any internet connectivity - and yes I have more than one of those at my office - then whether Internet Explorer has bugs or not makes no difference.

Not to mention the simple fact that it could never get passed anyway - by installing the software you hold microsoft free of harm or liability. If such a thing were proposed it wouldn't apply to CURRENT RELEASES and thus wouldn't cause any products to be pulled off the shelf. It would only apply to their next generation products, and there would be a compliance timeline for them to adhere to.

whoisgregg

WebmasterWorld Senior Member whoisgregg us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 7:25 pm on Jul 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

What good would a recall do?

Resellers can't continue to sell a product which has been recalled. The loss in revenue for M$ and the related "M$ food chain" of pulling every IE containing product off the shelves and replacing it might just jolt all tech companies (not just M$) into taking security of it's users information and computers seriously.

When we're talking about MSIE, it's only "vulnerable" if you're connected to the Internet and using the browser.

So Internet Explorer is only vulnerable when you're using it? And only when you are using it to browse the internet? I'm missing the point... what else is Internet Explorer used for?

digitalv

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 7:35 pm on Jul 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

So Internet Explorer is only vulnerable when you're using it? And only when you are using it to browse the internet? I'm missing the point... what else is Internet Explorer used for?

I was responding to the suggestion that Windows XP should be pulled from the shelves until bugs in IE were fixed. There are plenty of XP users that have no use for IE ...

webdevsf

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 7:42 pm on Jul 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

The loss in revenue for M$ and the related "M$ food chain" of pulling every IE containing product off the shelves and replacing it might just jolt all tech companies (not just M$) into taking security of it's users information and computers seriously.

Then again, it might not. It might just ruin thousands of businesses and force mass layoffs.

Its funny because the original linux/open source movement had a very strong libertarian streak (no doubt it is a bit socialist at heart too).

But now all i hear is how much we should regulate and legislate internet commerce and business.

encyclo

WebmasterWorld Senior Member encyclo us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 9:30 pm on Jul 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Viruses, trojans and spam from insecure Microsoft machines already costs billions of dollars each year, and you're worried about the financial implications of suspending shipping of Windows XP for the short time it would take to distribute patched versions out?

I'm not suggesting pushing MS into bankruptcy, just pushing them to recognize the importance of the issue, take remedial action and work to get corrected versions of their software out to their customers. Handled correctly, and especially if they had the guts to instigate it themselves, they would probably increase revenue, as they would show how important they place security in their organization.

A little anecdote: I was in England when the first cases of "mad cow disease" were found. The restaurant chain McDonalds took the unprecedented step of removing all beef products from their menu until they could ensure to their satisfaction that their supply was safe. That meant no burgers, Big Macs, nothing with beef - their flagship products. Guess what? The public reacted favorably to what McDonalds did, and the company's revenues went up as consumers found their confidence increased by knowing that the vendor cared about what they were selling. Perhaps Microsoft should take a lesson from that.

whoisgregg

WebmasterWorld Senior Member whoisgregg us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 10:20 pm on Jul 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

digitalv, ahh... I understand now. I misunderstood the context of the statement. Thanks! :)

whoisgregg

WebmasterWorld Senior Member whoisgregg us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 10:39 pm on Jul 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

It might just ruin thousands of businesses and force mass layoffs.

Where did I miss the slippery slope here?

Quite frankly, if I was a politician and a company representative responded to a recall consideration with, "A recall would force mass layoffs." I would see that as the blackmail attempt it is. To me, that reaction shows the company has as little consideration for it's customers as it has for it's employees if it would fire thousands to punish a government for acting in the interests of it's citizens.

Intervention with one company does not require nor imply regulation of the entire industry.

If it smells like FUD and looks like FUD...

ronin

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 11:08 pm on Jul 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Rather than force an IE recall, which is impractical, why not commission an expert group of programmers to research and uncover security holes in IE, Opera and Mozilla and then, every time a security hole is discovered, levy a fine on the browser company responsible, equivalent to estimates of what potential damage could be caused were such a hole exploited?

The expert group, divided into teams, might consist of a few technical group leaders who could then invite assistance from volunteers. Teams can be paid according to their respective performance in the form of commission from the levies.

I'm sure that would encourage M$ to move the issue of security a little closer to the top of the agenda.

And no it wouldn't be entirely partisan >;->

digitalv

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 11:13 pm on Jul 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Rather than force an IE recall, which is impractical, why not commission an expert group of non-browser company affiliated programmers to research and uncover security holes in IE, Opera and Mozilla and then, every time a security hole is discovered, levy a fine on every browser company equivalent to estimates of what potential damage could be caused were such a hole exploited?

Terrible idea! Am I the only person here who read the license agreement? If it's not secure enough for you just delete iexplore.exe and never look back.

encyclo

WebmasterWorld Senior Member encyclo us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 1:00 am on Jul 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

If it's not secure enough for you just delete iexplore.exe and never look back.

I have deleted iexplore.exe (and Windows), yet I'm still very much affected. Why? Because I receive a ton of spam to my email address every day being sent out from infected Windows PCs, for one thing.

Let's stop the navel-gazing, I'm-all-right attitude and see the bigger picture. Windows insecurity affects everyone on the net, Windows user or not.

vkaryl

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 1:09 am on Jul 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

Quite frankly, if I was a politician and a company representative responded to a recall consideration with, "A recall would force mass layoffs." I would see that as the blackmail attempt it is. To me, that reaction shows the company has as little consideration for it's customers as it has for it's employees if it would fire thousands to punish a government for acting in the interests of it's citizens.

*laughing* Welcome to the real world, in which unions blackmail companies every day in terminology pretty much just as you posted, in "these United States".

None of which is germane to the discussion I suppose....

vkaryl

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 1:11 am on Jul 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

encyclo: if all you're dealing with is infected email spam, you're one of the smarter ones. Delete it on the server, and you're home free already....

whoisgregg

WebmasterWorld Senior Member whoisgregg us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 8281 posted 6:43 am on Jul 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

*laughing* Welcome to the real world, in which unions blackmail companies every day in terminology pretty much just as you posted, in "these United States".

I was only pointing out what I would do if I was the politician in question... not everyone shares the same disdain for "forced choice" negotiating as I do. :)

As to what the actual politicians do or how unions achieve their ends, well... I won't discuss either here. :)

*shuffling off to see if I can help someone with css or javascript*

This 46 message thread spans 2 pages: < < 46 ( 1 [2]
Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / Code, Content, and Presentation / HTML
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Home ¦ Free Tools ¦ Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About ¦ Library ¦ Newsletter
WebmasterWorld is a Developer Shed Community owned by Jim Boykin.
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved